Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 June 28

= June 28 =

Earlier ancestors of the Families of Brabant and Hesse
Can anybody tell me who were they? They are obviously Frankish/Neustrian counts.


 * 1) Count Brunulf I in Neustria
 * 2) Count Aubri I in Neustria
 * 3) Count Walter I in Neustria
 * 4) Count Walter II in Neustria
 * 5) Count Albo in Neustria
 * 6) Mainer, Count of Sens, d. 800
 * 7) Gainfroi, Count of the Maasgau,
 * 8) Gilbert I, Count of the Maasgau, d. 842
 * 9) Gilbert II, Count of the Maasgau, 825–875
 * What do you want to know about them? A google search turns them up in a variety of genealogy sites, of which this seems the most useful (and cites its source as Burke's Peerage, which is reputable).  Our article Neustria offers a bit of political background to the area; we hear a little about Brunulf here in a discussion of Dagobert I's reign. (Brunulf appears to be the uncle of Dagobert's half-brother.) Gilbert gets a passing mention in this book.  You migt find similar pieces of info by googling some of the names yourself.  Gwinva (talk) 04:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

How do germanic and latin europeans 'behave differently'?
People seem to think that they do.--Bored of the world (talk) 01:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Any attempt to group people together like that are destined to fail dismally. Every individual belongs to all kinds of groups divided along all kinds of lines and those classifications will all have an influence (of varying degree depending on the classification and the individual) on what kind of person they are. To pick one specific classification and consider it in isolation is never going to get particularly meaningful results. --Tango (talk) 01:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * True. So why would someone hold such a belief, just stereotyping?--Bored of the world (talk) 01:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Basically, yes. Stereotypes do usually have some basis, but only on a large scale. Applying them to individuals is meaningless. --Tango (talk) 03:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Whilst stereotypical, there is a view that the butter/olive oil line (also the Protestant/Catholic line) functions as an honest/corrupt line, as seen here. Recent revelations in UK (a hodgepodge of german, latin, viking and celtic europe) politics may suggest that such a line is meaningless, of course --Saalstin (talk) 02:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't forget other similar European lines like the Beer/Wine line as well; however such differences are likely more botanical than cultural (i.e. barley and grapes grow in different climates; just as olives and cattle grazing land does as well). However, such difference have NO bearing on individual personality traits, and any claims that they do should be taken with serious suspicion. --Jayron32. talk . contribs  02:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Protestant work ethic probably comes into it somewhere, at least as something that was believed to be true (southern Europe being less Protestant).

Who discovered coffee?
From sentence 4 at coffee: "Coffee was first consumed in the ninth century, when it was discovered in the highlands of Ethiopia." Who discovered it, and how do we know? (And can you add the answer to the article.) Thanks! Agradman appreciates civility/makes occasional mistakes 01:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Presumably, it was discovered by people living in the highlands of Ethopia in the ninth century. There may not have been any known first discoverer who documented his findings; rather it is far more likely that the earliest archeological evidence we have that coffee was consumed was in artifacts dated to the ninth century, and located in the highlands of Ethiopia. --Jayron32. talk . contribs  02:51, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * thank you for your help ... but I was looking for a reliable source so I could improve the article. I'll post the question at the coffee talk page. Agradman appreciates civility/makes occasional mistakes 03:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The discoverer may also not necessarily be male.174.3.103.39 (talk) 04:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Did you even look at the article? The statement is not only referenced to a reliable source in both the lead and in the text of the history section AND in the article History of coffee, but it is elaborated on, and THOSE elaborations are also referenced.  It is quite well sourced!  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  12:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've responded at coffee, but the upshot is, the statement is patently false, regardless of how well sourced it is; the reliable source I'm looking for would have to say something more credible. I've found six sources on google books and posted them there.  Thanks.  Agradman appreciates civility/makes occasional mistakes 18:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Are we seriously considering that a single individual first discovered the coffee plant, or that we could know who it was? Mac Davis (talk) 19:44, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh Sweet J**** I hope not! But the question still remains, "HOW did ""WE"" discover which plants were edible and which poisonous? Trial and error?" I doubt that. 67.193.179.241 (talk) 21:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC) Rana sylvatica

Trieste Rivers
Where are the rivers Arsia (today Rasa)?174.3.103.39 (talk) 02:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * We seem to lack an article on it, but doing a search seems to indicate the river is mentioned in many articles.  The modern (Croatian) name seems to be the Raša River, while the earlier Italian name seems to be the Arsia River.  Here is an external article about the modern town of Raša, which is presumably located on said river.  There's a picture of the river in the article: .  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  03:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The river can be seen in this map of Istria. --Cam (talk) 04:45, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

A question about the FBI, CIA and the Armed Forces
Can the FBI arrest a person? and CIA? and the Armed Forces?. Or... must they call ordinary Police to do it? --190.50.115.132 (talk) 06:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * From what I know of them, the FBI is basically a special police unit, so they definitely can. The CIA are a small wing of the army whose job it is to do bad things behind enemy lines (among other things), so almost certainly not. I suspect the military don't have arrest powers either, however if the concept of a Citizens Arrest exists in the US then members of the CIA and Army would sure be in a good position to use it, seeing as they could likely beat up and detain any member of the public. Prokhorovka (talk) 08:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The CIA is not part of the army. The military has their own intelligence departments: Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Agency, United States Army Military Intelligence, Defense Intelligence Agency, Marine Corps Intelligence Activity but they do not have arrest authority. But the military can in some situations detain people as POW's or "enemy combatants" without arresting them. The U.S. military is restricted from domestic law enforcement activity under the Posse Comitatus Act (although the National Guard isn't when acting as state militias.) The military police can arrest people trespassing on federal property though. (Military_police) The FBI is a federal level policing agency with arrest powers.  Rmhermen (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * There's martial law and military police. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * See Posse Comitatus Act. The military does not have civilian arrest powers, the everyday arrests made on NCIS notwithstanding.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Finally - B.E.M.
One does go all over the place just to get here. From what i can see, you have everything all but what im looking for. Do you hold names of those who were actually awarded the B.E.M during the second world war. NZ soldier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miniminz (talk • contribs) 07:47, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, we do not try to maintain a complete list of British Empire Medal awardees. We have articles on notable people, some of whom were awarded the BEM: see Category:Recipients of the British Empire Medal. To be considered for an article in Wikkipedia, the subject must meet our notability guidelines, and receiving a BEM does not automatically qualify. receiving a Victoria Cross does automatically qualify. -Arch dude (talk) 08:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You may wish to look at the London Gazette website. This carries names of all medalholders when they were awarded their medals. It also carries help for family historians. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC)I've just noticed that New Zealand has its own gazette, which is linked from the London Gazette page I gave you above.--TammyMoet (talk) 08:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Hitchens parents
Who were the parents of Peter and Christopher Hitchens? 91.104.12.215 (talk) 09:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Their father, Eric Ernest Hitchens, was a commander in the Royal Navy; their mother, Yvonne Jean, née Hickman, was of Jewish descent. See the summary of the first search hit here for the names and here for some details. Deor (talk) 13:46, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Constitutions
In Canada, our constitution has a special formula: what i mean is that a certain percentage of the population or number of provinces, or number of provinces and territories have to accept a proposalchange to the constitution, before something about the consititution can be changed. And I'm not sure of if the provinces and/or territories have to hold (legally binding) referenda.

This Canadian constitution is harder to change compared to just a regular Canadian law.

Is this the case with all constitutions? , For example, the European Constitution?

So in actually, the Canadian constitution has a bunch of laws. And with the Canadian constiutional formula, these Laws (literally), are harder to change, considering has it has to go through a percentage. Hypothetically speaking, say if this was the case, we could have a polity that has only one law in the constitution, Yay, nay?174.3.103.39 (talk) 11:25, 28 June 2009 (UTC)174.3.103.39 (talk) 01:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)174.3.103.39 (talk) 01:07, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, in the U.S. at least, the constitution is also harder to change than general laws, and I suspect that this is true in many places, because the constitution is not just a random set of laws; it is a set of laws which constitute the government; that is it is supposed to be a description of how the government is supposed to be organized and operate, and not just a random set of rules about how people behave. In fact, there has been exactly ONE true "law" in that sense in the U.S. Constitution, the Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, and that was shortly repealed by the Twenty-first Amendment to the United States Constitution.  Other than that aberation, the rest of the constitution is about how the government (as opposed to the people) are to operate.  Since one wouldn't just want to change such an important document willy-nilly, the amendment procedure is by necessity quite involved.  In the U.S., the amendment procedure is described in Article Five of the United States Constitution, which sets two procedures for amending.  An amendment requires the recommendation of 2/3 of BOTH houses of Congress OR 2/3 of the state legislatures may request a special Constitutional Convention to deal with a proposed amendment.  After either proposal procedure, the proposed amendment then as to be passed by 3/4 of the states, either by their legislatures directly or by state-level conventions called specifically to deal with the amendment. --Jayron32. talk . contribs  12:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm hoping entrenchment and Constitutional amendment would have some useful information.
 * Constitution of Australia and linked articles deal with the issue in Austrailan constitutional law. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Correction: the relevant article for entrenchment is Entrenched clause. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Constitution of Australia describes the procedure laid down in the Australian Constitution. Palace Guard's link talks about the history of actual changes to the Constitution.  -- JackofOz (talk) 21:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In concordance to what is stated above is only logical to assume a countries basic laws or constitution, representing the basic values on which the state is built, to be more difficult to change then everyday laws. (Imagine people abolishing the separation of powers on a whim) There are even some constitutions that restrict changes to certain parts completely. Namely the Eternity clause of the basic law of the Federal Republic of Germany. --91.6.41.211 (talk) 17:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say that most constitutions require a higher standard of amendment than an ordinary law, since they define the fundamental principles by which the country is run. The British constitution is an oddity in this respect, since formally it doesn't exist as a single written document, but is instead the sum of statutes, court judgements, and treaties, and Parliament can simply pass new laws to alter existing ones. The Irish constitution, on the other hand, can only be amended by the amendment being approved by both Houses of the Oireachtas, then approved in a referendum, and finally signed by the President. As to the European constitution, note that that's so difficult to enact that it has not been ratified and come into force. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 20:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, the Constitution of the People's Republic of China is not entrenched: it can be changed by Congress as easily as Congress can amend most other laws. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Another example: the Venezuelan Constitution (translation here) requires ammendments to itself to pass a two-thirds majority in the National Assembly and then a simple majority in a popular referendum (Title IX, Chapters I and II). There is also a procedure for modifying it by calling a special Constituent Assembly; I'm not sure what the rules are in this case, but the original one in 1999 had to have its draft approved by popular referendum. "Organic Laws," which are in between the constitution and ordinary laws in importance, require a two-thirds majority in the National Assembly (Title V, Chap. 1, section 4). I think regular laws just require a simple majority in the National Assembly, although I couldn't find that explicitly stated in the constitution. So to sum up, the Venezuelan Constitution, like most of the examples here, makes itself harder to change than ordinary laws. Regarding your idea about a constitution with only "law" (or "article," as I think may be a more usual term): if the constitution was going to make itself harder to ammend than an ordinary law, that would have to be the one article, so the constitution couldn't do anything else. Possible, but not too useful. -- Ong saluri (talk) 19:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Why is the European constitution so difficult to enact?


 * Is it possible to "entrench" (from what I take from the above responses, entrench = to make something harder to change (or amend (in law))) ordinary law such as: Jailing for a period of 3 weeks for not putting hay in a barn before sundown, without exception?
 * In any level of government, for example, in Italy, the commune, the province, the region, or the state (as in, if, European Union was legally binding]]?174.3.103.39 (talk) 01:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

What is the population of Tierra del Fuego?
The article doesn't say. Don't imagine it would be that high, but the article gives no particular indication.--Bored of the world (talk) 17:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Chilean part of the archipelago is Tierra del Fuego Province (6,904) and Antártica Chilena Province (2,262) and the Argentine part is Tierra del Fuego Province (Argentina) (101,070). So total about 110,000, back in 2001-2 when those censuses were done. --Cam (talk) 18:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the Spanish wikipedia articles, the Argentinian part has 126,212 inhabitants, and the Chilean part 6,904. Total of the island therefore around 133,516 --Saalstin (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

WWII London Bombings
Was Germany still bombing London in February 1945? I was sure that at that point they had stopped. Copana2002 (talk) 17:42, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Actual planes flying over and dropping bombs had long ceased, but V-1 and V-2 attacks continued... AnonMoos (talk) 18:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * According to our V-2 article, the last V-2 attacks were on 27 March 1945 and our V-1 article says "The last enemy-action incident of any kind on British soil occurred on 29 March 1945, when a V-1 struck Datchworth in Hertfordshire." --Tango (talk) 04:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "enemy-action incident"? Ewww. I'm changing that to "enemy action". Clarityfiend (talk) 05:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Almost as bad as describing a plane crash as "an undesirable ground/aircraft interface". Exxolon (talk) 20:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm rather fond of the phrase "lithobraking". --Tango (talk) 22:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Model for sales in a market
I'm trying to make a computer model for sales in a market, for a game (i.e. not real money). The market has a number of products, each with a fixed price and fixed value to consumers. Each customer has a preferred buying price. The result should be a number of sales for each product. Is there any function, statistical distribution, or otherwise that would give realistic sales figures?

To give an example of what ought to happen:

- If a customer has a budget of $100 and the product nearest to $100 has a value of 1000, he should probably consider a 900-value at $90 and a 1100-value $110 product equally. But a $120 product might be so far outside the budget that it would need 1500-value to be considered equally. Similarly, a product of 800-value might have to have a price of $50 to consider. - It shouldn't lead to paradoxes like a product that is the same value but cheaper than another selling less. - No market is perfect. Even if one product is clearly the best, some people will buy worse choices. The more outstanding a product it the less people would buy the others. - It should be smooth - there should be no sudden jumps between e.g. $99 and $100 products.

This could also go in mathematics despite the economics aspect, so if it's the wrong section I'll move it to there. 86.163.186.102 (talk) 17:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It might help to look at some price/number sold graphs. It's a similar concept - perceived value and the price one has to pay for it. I mean, if you can't model the current situation, this one (which has definitely been studied) might help. All it is is a different variable - you have the value of the product in actual terms, and the number who bought it, which can give you an indication of perceived value - the more who bought it, on average they must have valued it more highly. It would be some work, but there's lots more material. A poor second, really, but messing around with this might be the answer. I don't have the links, but others will if you don't find exactly what you're looking for. 92.1.236.171 (talk) 20:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It depends on how much the customer wants the product to begin with. In econo-speak, the price elasticity depends on the commodity and market. 208.70.31.206 (talk) 18:50, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Canadian Nobility
I would like to know when Canada stopped the practice of allowing titles. Does Canada have nobility? Is it written into the constitution, the British North American Act? No nobility in Canada USA has it written into thier constitution that everyone is equal. Since Caanada has the British style of governance do they still have Sir somebody, or Lord this or that, or the Earl of Ottawa, etc. The first Prime Minister was knighted by Queen Victoria. Sir John A Macdonald. Lord Black gave up his Canadian citizenship to get a title from Queen Elizabeth. When was the priactise of allowing titles dissoved in Canada? Thanks for your answer, Nottawa Nottawa (talk) 23:46, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * See Canadian titles debate. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just reading this article, I was curious — can any Parliament in the Commonwealth (or the UK, if it's not part of the Commonwealth; I can't remember) make demands of the reigning monarch? Of course they can resolve to make requests of the monarch, and the Prime Minister's advice is always taken in practice, but would it be seen as proper/constitutional/traditional/whatever to make an absolute demand upon the sovereign?  Nyttend (talk) 00:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Legally, I doubt it. Conventionally, yes. The Queen rarely makes any political decisions for herself. She'll hand out honours and titles to members of the royal family unilaterally, but not to other people. --Tango (talk) 01:05, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, that's what I meant about requests and the PM giving advice — I can't imagine such requests/advice being ignored or rejected. Given the highly formal system of the British constitutional monarchy, it just seemed to me rather disrespectful to demand something (in those words) from the monarch when "requesting" or "advising" would get the job done well.  Nyttend (talk) 03:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it would have been done very politely and diplomatically. Who suggested it was a demand? --Tango (talk) 04:08, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Queen, by convention, acts on the advice of her ministers. In relation to the UK, this would be her UK ministers. In relation to Australia, her Australian ones. In relation to Canada, her Canadian ones. If the Canadian Prime Minister properly advised her to bestow a title (except those within the monarch's personal pleasure, like the Order of the Garter) -- then she would.
 * Making a public and hostile demand is probably a breach of convention already. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Australian, Canadian, Jamaican ... Prime Ministers could advise her to award a knighthood or some other sort of honour. But I would have thought the only person who can advise her to raise anyone to the Peerage of the United Kingdom is the PM of the United Kingdom.  Just as the British PM could not advise the Queen to appoint someone as a member of the Order of Australia, for example.  (Not that the Australian PM is involved in that process either; it's decided by an independent committee).  --  JackofOz (talk) 07:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

This Woman in the Ordeal by Fire
Who was this woman in this painting? I found it in Breton Wikipedia of Richardis.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 23:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You've answered your own question: she is Richardis, who was put through an ordeal by fire, according to her article. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

—6birc (talk) 20:16, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Saint Richardis (fragment of The Ordeal by Fire by Dierec Bouts the Older).jpg No, there are two women in this painting. Richardis is the nun in flames in the far back. See: Talk:Richardis. Responding to the original poster, I have translated the German description in the image page into English.