Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 November 20

= November 20 =

Ismailis
Are Pakistan and India the only countries with the most Ismaili Nizari population? In Pakistan, do they speak Sindh and in India, do they speak Gujarati? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.119.221 (talk) 00:51, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you mean 'the only countries with the most Ismaili Nizari population'? I don't believe Pakistan or India have a majority or plurality Nizari Ismaili population. If you mean the countries where a large number of Nizari life, then it may depend on your cut off point. For example if country X has 8 million, country Y has 5 million and country Z has 3 million, do you count all 3 as 'countries with the most Ismaili Nizari population' or only two and why? In any case, our article Nizari has a demographics section which lists several countries. It doesn't include numbers but "The largest group of Ismailis reside in Central Asia (Tajikistan, Afghanistan) mainly in rural areas. ...... South Asian Ismailis compose the largest ethnic group particularly Pakistan, followed by India and Bangladesh." which is somewhat confusing to me but appears to suggest the Nizari Ismaili population in Central Asia is larger then in South Asia Nil Einne (talk) 08:25, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

The Language of Wine Reviews
Wine reviewers would always describe the "flavour" of the wine as a combination of seemingly random foods (e.g. "...the wine expresses beautiful, ripe dark fruit, mainly plum and blackberry; notes of gaminess, smoke, spice and even a slight vegetal note weave through the fruity backdrop..."). Is the flavouring quote-on-quote "all in the reviewer's head", or did some chemical reaction in the fermenting process produce the chemicals that mimic the flavours, or do the winemakers barrel the grapes along with other fruits and spices? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.135.122 (talk) 00:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's largely chemical reactions. It does sound like it's entirely made up to the uninitiated, but with practice it is possible to detect particcular tastes and aromas which have the named qualities. As with everything to do with subtle preceptions, it is open to some interpretation, but the language is consistent enough for it to all make sense to those with expedrience in the field of wine tasting. Mind you, it's alsos probably one of the simplest of things to bluff, since very few experts will be on hand to argue a taste point, so take any opinions of experts with a grain of salt! Grutness...wha?  01:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As an example, I've heard that some connoisseurs have been known to discuss the wine in terms of cat urine - not because the wine tastes or smells like it, but because feline piss is a very unique smell and not easily replicable by other products. Remember, the only opinion that matters is your own! ~ Amory ( u  •  t  •  c ) 03:14, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Getting wildly off-topic here, but I've always though cat pee smelt like strong, sour vanilla. Grutness...wha?  07:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong vanilla cat pee wine. And what would you like for desert monsiour? ~ R.T.G 12:15, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I will take the Sahara if it is available, and if not, the Gobi would be acceptable
 * Presumably they don't want to own up to actually having done a taste test. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:08, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's largely horse shite, but who knows. You could run a test on the internal consistency of their appellations but what would the point be? They are not about to give up their tomfoolery just because you can prove that it is only that. Pretension knows no dignity. Vranak (talk) 14:35, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I will add that as a bit of a cigar enthusiast,I know the same type of extremely detailed descriptive reviews also exist in the smoking world as well. While one may light up and just taste tobaccoo smoke, another will describe it as "leathery, nutty and earthy, with hints of chocolate and a coffee after taste. :-) cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:52, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but are they likely to make comparison between the tobacco and fecal matter? (Although one well-known children's book describes goat dropping being clandestinely placed in a man's pipe. --71.111.194.50 (talk) 19:06, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Deleted Yoga Articles?
Are there any yoga articles that have been deleted? No bios. I came across an article like 3 years ago: it had like 5 warning tags, a very long article; sections headings (?) were bolded instead of headlined.

Some of the tags claimed that it was talking about indian witchcraft. A lot of the content seemed wiccan, "Indian" style. It was a category article (talking about sub-disciplines).

Which article is this, and if deleted, what page?174.3.102.6 (talk) 07:08, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Try the Deletionpedia which has all the late great wiki articles ~ R.T.G 12:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Early Black-rights campaigner
Hi, in the early days of the Irish state, after 1922, a prominent black American spokeperson for black rights came to the new Irish state to try gathering support and financial aid from his similarly, but now recovering, downtrodden brothers in Ireland. When he came he tred soapbaxing around Dublin. What found was a land of peasants in rags who probably didn't understand too much of what he was preaching about so he soon gave up the idea of getting too much support from people he thought were worse off than himself. Nevertheless he made friends here (Ireland) and returned a few times for one reason or another. He was a black man with good education and therefore a capable spokesperson of Black Rights and embroiled in controversy and danger for that. I may have a few of those details wrong. I cannot recall the name of that particular person. Long before Martin Luther King or Malcolm X. Does this ring the bell for anyone? Surely there was not a lot of people fitting this description, thanks for any help. ~ R.T.G 12:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Just a guess, maybe Marcus Garvey? (He, W. E. B. Du Bois, and George Washington Carver were probably the three most prominent non-religious American Black leaders ca. 1922-1925...) AnonMoos (talk) 14:10, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Many black intellectuals of the era looked to Ireland for inspiration, like Garvey, Cyril Briggs, and Claude McKay, though probably few (if any) would have thought that Irishmen were generally worse off than blacks. I'm not sure who among them actually visited Ireland, but if you follow the links from their articles, and check out Harlem Renaissance too, maybe you'll find the guy you're thinking of. —Kevin Myers 14:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Marcus Garvey is very like it but still I do not recall and these guys are not mentioned for any Irish relations. If it is on wiki though I think these artices are great collection of content portal so thanks for these. ~ R.T.G 16:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Possibly Paul Robeson? He is well known for visiting Wales in the late 1920's and expressing solidarity with and support for poor Welsh miners, so visits to Ireland in the same era seem not implausible. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 18:29, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * A definite match for the political values and international activity, 87.81.., thanks again. I must just admit to Kevin Myers on reflection that that is what sprouts from seeds of doubt. ~ R.T.G 21:37, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

General knowledge question on capital city
which can be city that is

1. sprawling, modern 2. One country's newest capital 3. known for its (going-green) main square

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.99.200 (talk) 17:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps Brasilia? Aaronite (talk) 17:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Or Astana? — Kpalion(talk) 18:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Islamabad. The article talks about how environmentally green the city is.  99.166.95.142 (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Aren't all capital cities their respective countries' "newest capital"? --Sean 19:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah but Pakistan is a special case, it seems to have had three capital cities in the past 40 years. --Richardrj talkemail 09:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Another geography question
Founded by a controversial religious movement, it was finally closed because of debilitating diseases that ravished the population, and by years of governmental neglect.

which can be place satisfying above conditions —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.96.99.200 (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this a homework question? --Dpr 71.111.194.50 (talk) 19:03, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It is likely Kalaupapa, Hawaii, one of the more notorious leper colonys in the world. It was founded by Father Damien, a catholic priest and missionary.  I am not sure how controversial his order, the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, is, but it seems to fit the rest pretty good.  -- Jayron  32  00:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Father Damien was certainly controversial. Many of the Protestants around him looked down on him, and Catholicism in general. Robert Louis Stevenson championed him after his death (see Father_Damien) and the controversy appears to have raged or simmered from 1889 to 1905. BrainyBabe (talk) 11:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * um... If we're improving our vocabularies, note: would that perhaps be "...ravaged the population..."? -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Link between St.Louis IX's 5th son and the Royal Dutch family De Graeff
I'm trying to find the link from the 5th son of St. Louis of France to the marraige with the granddaughter or daugher of King Willim of Holland. Is anyone able to help me with this?

Much appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ValkyrieKnight (talk • contribs) 18:57, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about his son Pierre? The Joan, Countess of Blois article says they had two children who died  young.  99.166.95.142 (talk) 19:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * William I, Count of Hainaut (William III of Holland) was married to Jeanne of Valois, daughter of Charles, granddaughter of Philip II, greatgranddaughter of Louis IX. William was the son of John II of Holland, grandson of Adelaide of Holland, who was the sister (not a daughter) of William II of Holland, anti-king of Germany. That is as close as I can get. There was no title "king of Holland" at this time. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 20:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The only Kingdom of Holland was a short-lived Napoleonic puppet state which existed for 4 short years. There was a County of Holland which existed from the 1000's until Napoleon ended it and replaced it with his puppet Kingdom.  There is also the modern Kingdom of the Netherlands which has only existed since 1815.  There was also the Dutch Republic which operated as a monarchy in all but name, the head-of-state of that was the Stadtholder, one of which William III of Orange, was also King of England.  Many many many Dutch heads-of-state, either of the whole country, or of individual duchies/counties/etc. within it were named William, so without knowing which William you mean, it would be hard to figure out how to make the connection you seek. -- Jayron  32  00:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Herman Van Rompuy
Does Herman Van Rompuy have to resign as Prime Minister of Belgium now that he's been chosen as President of the EU, or will he be allowed to retain both jobs? 99.166.95.142 (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The new post is a full-time job, and as such we will be seeing a new Belgian PM in the new year. Fribbler (talk) 19:18, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Is Obama Conservative?
I was just reading about Boris Johnson and noticed that he endorsed Obama in the last election. That struck me as quite odd because he is a member of the Conservative party and I know that most conservatives in the US tend not to be very fond of Obama (to say the least). I realize though, that the Conservative and Labour parties don't have the exact same positions as the Republican and Democrat parties do and that most politicians in Europe are somewhat to the left of their counterparts here in the US. So my questions are: in England (or the rest of Europe) would Obama be considered a conservative (or a center-right politician at least)? And is Boris an anomaly among British conservatives for supporting Obama over McCain or was that a typical sentiment?24.62.245.13 (talk) 21:16, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Obama is certainly conservative by European standards and the Democratic Party probably can be considered Christian democratic. Obama was (iirc) favored by 90% of all Europeans, so it's not unlikely that conservatives in Europe supported him. Regards  So Why  21:27, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. In very simple terms, the US as a whole is further right than Europe, so Europeans tend to support the leftmost of the US parties, which is the Democrats, even if they would support a right-of-centre party in Europe. Although, in this case the figure is probably so high because people hated Bush so much. --Tango (talk) 21:39, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The Conservatives know that if they get into power next year, they'll have to deal with the Obama administration. Britain's standing in the world is often seen here in terms of how much influence we have with the US. Certainly David Cameron was quick to cosy-up to Obama once he'd won. That said, I think he's right that there is much "common ground" between them. Alansplodge (talk) 21:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * As an American who is well to the left of center, probably even by European standards, I can say that Obama has been a tremendous disappointment. He has showered money on Wall Street but frankly not done much for working people, and he has failed to carry through on many of his more left-leaning promises during the election. I think that he may be something of a model for Cameron and the Conservatives.  Like him, they want to appear to be exciting, new, and a vehicle for change, while in fact safeguarding the interests of the wealthy establishment.  Marco polo (talk) 22:08, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Healthcare, for example. Of course, Obama's healthcare reforms are, I believe, supported by all the major UK parties - the NHS is extremely popular in the UK (we never stop complaining about it, of course, but that's not the point!). I guess that is an example of the UK (and Europe in general) being further left than the US. What is a leftwing policy in the US is universal here. --Tango (talk) 22:12, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Things like healthcare for everyone are considered conservative by most (Western) Europeans (i.e. nothing revolutionary but simply how it is). A party with the platform of the US Republican Party could probably not win a single election in any European country for being too far right. Regards  So Why  23:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's also important to remember that what's "conservative" varies based on the traditions of the country. (Because, by definition, a conservative is someone who wants to preserve the way the country is and has been.) For example, a staunch conservative in the UK would strongly support the continuation of the crown, whereas a true conservative in the US would be militantly opposed to a hereditary monarchy. Other things may be shared (like religion and family values), but when discussing particulars, you have to keep in mind that the status quo that the conservatives are conserving may vary between countries. -- 128.104.112.237 (talk) 00:51, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you are putting too much sway by the names. Just as the Republican party in the US is no more or less in favour of keeping the US a republic than the Democratic party is and the Democratic party is no more or less in favour of keeping the US a democracy than the Republican party is, the Conservative party in the UK is no more or less in favour of conserving things than the Labour or LibDem parties are. --Tango (talk) 01:19, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It might be down to the name Tango, but the Conservatives are more conservative and traditionalist than Labour of the LibDems, although there are many exceptions - particularly in recent years. - Jarry1250 [Humorous? Discuss.] 10:57, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but "conservative" (little c) in politics doesn't actually mean you conserve things. It is a specific political viewpoint (or range of viewpoints and is often used in relative terms). We talk (somewhat inaccurately, admittedly) about the Victorians being very conservative but they weren't conserving what came before, it was a new viewpoint. It has the name it does because when it was named it was the current mainstream and people with that viewpoint wanted to keep things the same. We still use the name even though things have changed a lot since then. Creationists are often described as conservative when they try to get evolution thrown out of science education, but that isn't an attempt to conserve anything, it is an attempt to wind it back. --Tango (talk) 23:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The political gap, so to speak, between the policies of the Republicans and the Democrats is much greater than that of the Tories and the Labour party in this country. And both Gordon Brown and Obama, despite being centre-left leaders in their own countries, are infinitely further to the "right" than any centre-right European politician, particularly on matters economic. This vast divergence in political and economic culture between continental Europe and the UK/US isn't often appreciated. Nor is the sheer hatred of the US and all it stands for by continental Europe. My father, a man who was born and raised in the States but has worked in the UK and continental Europe for about two-thirds of his working life always says that he struggles to get this across to his friends in the States: from my own, more limited, experience, this would seem to be correct. Obama's personal popularity in Europe was just that. The hatred of American global hegemony, and the gnawing envy of its political and economic success, hasn't gone away. Moreschi (talk) 12:10, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * "The gnawing envy of its political and economic success"? Please.  Why not throw in "they hate our freedom" while you're at it?  Only Americans think that America is the center of the universe. FiggyBee (talk) 17:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's funny: American exceptionalism, as displayed by Moreschi in his attempt to explain Europe's hatred of America, is precisely why a lot of Europeans hate America. --Tango (talk) 07:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * If I may divulge a minor secret, this dichotomy between liberals and conservatives is both silly and unhelpful. The less a person concerns themselves with who is what, the better understanding you will have. Although I sometimes suspect that people like to be bogged down with these sorts of labels. Keeps them from looking at more fundamental issues with their lives. Vranak (talk) 13:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Correct colors in the Flag of Bhutan
There are some outstanding questions in Talk:Flag of Bhutan about the flag images in the article. (1) Three versions of the flag are shown. In the second the two background colors appear to be reversed; is this correct or an error? (2) The article refers to fimbriation between the colors but none is shown in the images; which is correct? (3) The article refers to one of the colors variously as "red" or "orange"; which is correct? Was the color in fact changed? (Judging from a Google image search, access to a Bhutanese official might be required to answer this!) Elphion (talk) 22:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) During the 1950s, Bhutan's flag seems to have shown the darker triangle at honour point (i.e., upper hoist), at least according to Flags of the World. I will check with their mailing list, though, since the text on their Bhutan page makes no mention of this change; 2) There has never been any fimbriation on the Bhutanese flag to the best of my knowledge. Flags of the World's Bhutan page suggests that the term "fimbriation" was incorrectly used by the Bhutanese authorities to simply refer to the join between the two coloured fields; 3) The colours are open to much debate - a quick glance at the FotW page makes that clear enough. The colours were initially listed as "yellow and red" with no further specification, have been interpreted as everything from yellow and maroon through to two shades of orange. According to FotW, the "red was changed to orange by royal command in 1968-69". Some countries (probably Bhutan included) do not specify exact shades for the colours on their flags, but some form of yellow and orange - probably a deep saffron yellow and a reddish or brownish orange - are about as close to official standard colours (no pun intended) as you're likely to get. Grutness...wha?  23:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I posed the question at FOTW, and got several responses. It appears that the image there (which may be the initial source for many of the red-over-yellow flags) was based on a mistranslation of the official Bhutanese description of the flag. It was initially - incorrectly - translated as "The yellow spreads from the summit to the base and forms the fluttering end." The correct translation, as shown at reads "The yellow spreads from the summit to the base while the red extends from the base and forms the fluttering end." So it seems as if yellow over red (or a lighter shade over a darker shade, at least0 has always been the standard. A further comment added numerous online sites showing images of the actual flag in use:, , , , , , . There's also a pdf of the United Nations' description of the flag here. (with thanks to FotW's Jonathan Dixon and Esteban Rivera). Grutness...wha?  22:30, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much for looking into this. I am copying this information to Talk:Flag of Bhutan, and will see about getting the incorrect image of the second flag updated. Elphion (talk) 14:02, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * A further comment received today (via FotW's Ralph Bartlett): In recent years two of our more well know colleagues, Dr. Whitney Smith and Prof. Michel R. Lupant, have each made separate trips to Bhutan, Nov.-Dec. 2000 and Sep.-Oct. 2007 respectively, during which they researched the origins and use of the Bhutan Flag. A the recent ICV 23 in Yokohama, Japan, Prof. Lupant delivered a lecture on his research, "Flags over Bhutan - Land of the Thunder Dragon". The text of this lecture will be published at some future point by the Japanese Vexillological Association, as part of the proceedings of this Congress. Grutness...wha?  20:28, 22 November 2009 (UTC)