Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 October 29

= October 29 =

comparison and contrast on multiculturalism in USA and multiculturalism in Canada
Is there any website where it compares and contrasting on multiculturalism in USA and multiculturalism in Canada? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.53.139 (talk) 01:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a look -- Cultural mosaic. Vranak (talk) 14:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Is there any better result than this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.54.75 (talk) 00:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

final total from benefit concerts
Is there a final total from the "I Love the Islands" benefit concert series? Will someone write an article on the concert series?24.90.204.234 (talk) 02:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Your mission, should you accept it, is to collect the online news reports concerning the series and report their contents at I Love the Islands concert series with to the sources you've used. This tape will self-destruct...--Wetman (talk) 21:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I tried to do an article on the "I Love the Islands" benefit concert series, but it was deleted. Plus, with several news reports on the event, they can be quite a bit confusing. When I tried to create another article, my request was declined. If anyone can please help me out, I'd really appreciate it. Thank you.24.90.204.234 (talk) 03:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Was there a formal WP:Articles for deletion discussion? Was it listed for WP:Speedy deletion? No one can really "decline" your attempt to create or recreate a new article except a consensus of several users, unless either the article had incredibly-grave flaws to begin with, or an administrator was abusing his or her powers. I have no idea how worthy your article was or might have been, but there is some due process involved. And very skimpy or biased articles which are still more than just propaganda or self-promotion should be considered for improvement or merger with a better, bigger article (in this case, for example, one about the tsunami) before outright deletion. —— Shakescene (talk) 09:18, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure what the OP is talking about. No article titled I Love the Islands has ever been created.  Additionally, since the OP does not have a registerred account, he does not have article creation privileges.  -- Jayron  32  12:31, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I collected as much online news reports as possible and printed them out. They were faxed into the Wikimedia offices, hoping the necessary information would be provided to create an article on the "I Love the Islands" concert series.24.90.204.234 (talk) 03:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's the problem. Faxing the info to the offices won't get an article made. Best thing to do is go to WP:RA and create a posting there, requesting the page be created and provide the citations necessary. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 19:11, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I was hoping someone else could create the article. That person might be able to do it better than I'd be able to.24.90.204.234 (talk) 03:09, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Th. Roosevelt and John Davis Long - conflicting versions
Before his career as US (Vice-)President Theodore Roosevelt was Assistant Secretary of the Navy under John Davis Long. According to the Roosevelt article, "(Because of the inactivity of Secretary of the Navy John D. Long at the time, this gave Roosevelt control over the department.)"

The Long article, however, states that "Long served with vision and efficiency through the next five years, organizing the Navy for the challenges of the Spanish-American War and the expansion that followed, and laying the groundwork for the growth of the "New American Navy" fostered by his former assistant, President Theodore Roosevelt."

Surely, both can't be right? Could someone with historic insight please elaborate? Asav (talk) 10:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I recommend you post this on the discussion page of both articles so that other editors interested in the topic can get involved over the coming months (and years). Here on the Refdesk posts are no longer read or commented upon after a week's time or so, and I imagine it'll take more than a week to drum up an editor knowledgeable in this field.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You can also use the tag on both articles. Add  to the Roosevelt article and  to the John Davis Long article. Exxolon (talk) 02:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * From what I can gather, TR was only under Long for about 1 year while Long was SecNav for 5 years. So perhaps he was a slacker when TR was under him, but figured it out in the last 4 years he was in the job.  Googlemeister (talk) 19:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Need names of specific theories or names at play here
Say a man does something extremely heroic and saves a whole city from catastrophy by single handedly disabling the criminals and defused the bomb. So everybody in the city celebrates and considers him a hero and becomes a national celebrity. Then, the next night he accidently hits a child with his car and this child dies. It was clearly his fault because of negligence or something like that. The courts and the public are undecided how or if they should prosecute this hero. What specific theories or ethics, or whatever are at play here? --Reticuli88 (talk) 13:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You do know that the RefDesk is not a discussion forum right? You seem to be asking for our opinions. Unless I am wrong and there is more nuance to your question, I don't see that it is anything beyond a moral dilemma. Zunaid 14:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * God, what's with everyone saying that I'm trying to start a f*cking discussion. For all those who took Ethics in school, what specific ethics are taking place.  btw thanks for moral dilemma answer despite your scolding.  --Reticuli88 (talk) 14:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Your question "what specific ethics are taking place" is unanswerable. Ethics aren't things that "take place", they're things that exist in the minds of people.  This is why you're asking for opinions - who knows what "the courts and the public" might think in any given situation?  What is "the public" anyway?  Now, if you were to ask a specific legally focused question such as whether there is any precedent for a prosecution being dropped in such a situation, we might start to get somewhere. --Richardrj talkemail 14:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * honesty, personhood, utilitarianism, victimless crime: these are examples of moral concepts with an objective existence (if you adhere to moral realism) which could be valid answers to questions on the reference desk like this question. 213.122.5.194 (talk) 20:06, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I am certainly not asking for anyone's opinions. I assumed that there were specfic names of any ethic theories or anything like that, I guess not. When I have this discussion later with my teacher, I will simply tell her that this is a case of "moral dilemma" instead of "_" ethic theory or whatever. Excuse my extreme ignorance on the topic. But still, not cool on the scolding. --Reticuli88 (talk) 14:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You'll get scolded less if you take an extra minute before clicking "Save page" and try to be as precise as possible with what, exactly, you are asking for. You've been asking interesting questions but they have been very vague in the particulars, which leads most pedantic Refdesk visitors to scold you for being irritatingly imprecise.  Tempshill (talk) 03:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In most rule of law nations, the two events are totally separate. I recommend you do a google news search for firefighters that have committed various crimes.  Turns out the "but he's a hero" defense doesn't go too far in practice.  --M @ r ē ino 14:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Such a past might constitute a mitigating factor under law, although the wikipedia article on these only really discusses mental health not prior good character. Aggravation, mitigation, and mercy in English criminal justice by Nigel Walker discusses the effect of meritorious behaviour on sentencing:
 * Sentencers are sometimes influenced by a principle which seems to be retributive in spirit: that deserts can be reduced by meritorious conduct. [Discusses cases where people make amends for crimes prior to being caught and receive a reduced sentence.]  More remarkable are cases in which the court is influenced by meritorious conduct which has nothing to do with the offence or trial.  Men have had prison terms reduced or suspended becaus they have fought well in a war, saved a child from drowning or started a youth club (p. 111)
 * (references supplied in the text) It also mentions a case in 1982 where a man, Reid, had saved 2 children from a burning house and had a sentence of 3 months for burglary commuted to a conditional discharge.  The reference to retributive justice is interesting, and may indicate one ethical principle involved. --Lesleyhood (talk) 15:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think in the situation as named there would be much official, ethical leeway. Doing one good thing, and then doing one bad thing—those are going to be regarded as separate events from a legal point of view. If the latter is truly accidental, then it doesn't even matter if they've done the good thing, technically. (Accidents happen, and we have legal systems that make some accommodation for that.) Assessments of whether it was truly accidental, though, might be influenced by perceptions of the honesty and integrity of the fellow in question.
 * A more problemic situation, though, is what happens when someone who is currently doing something Very Good, also is doing something Somewhat or even Very Bad. This is a common trope in fiction—there is sometimes a question of what serves the greater good prosecuting someone for their crimes, or letting them get away with it and continue their good work. For the relative ethics discussion, see, e.g. utilitarianism. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * sigh of relief* thank you!  This is better.  Thanks all for your input.  I see a lot of legal explanations rather than ethical ones but this will certainly do.  thanks again  --Reticuli88 (talk) 16:04, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * There are various examples of this sort of thing. To take a recent example from down here, Marcus Einfeld was a highly respected lawyer and later judge.  He was held in very high regard by groups such as Jews and indigenous Australians for his advocacy of human rights.  He was named an Australian Living Treasure, and was often touted as a future Governor-General.  Then he was nabbed for speeding, by a speed camera.  He is wealthy, and he should have just paid the the fine and be done with it, even if it did mean he lost his licence for a while.  God knows, he could afford taxis.  But he claimed the car was being driven by a friend of his.  It turned out this friend had died a couple of years earlier (which he knew, because he sent expressions of condolence to her family).  Then he claimed it was a different person of the same name as his friend, which was a total fabrication  It just went from bad to worse, and he's now in prison, having been stripped of all his official honours and all his standing in the community.  In an interview shortly before he went to jail, he said (unbelievably) he didn't think he'd done anything wrong. He's usually referred to now as "disgraced former judge Marcus Einfeld".  --  JackofOz (talk) 19:46, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Moral character might be relevant. The line (in the criticisms section) about "situation specific traits, rather than robust traits" caught my eye. The man in your example nobly saved the life of the child he then later negligently killed. We can judge him for his overall altruism, and his general will to defend the city, which he appears conflicted over, in that he will defend the citizens from bombs but not by being careful with his own car; or we can say that we shouldn't generalize about his character in that way, and should treat the two incidents separately. 213.122.5.194 (talk) 20:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The bible (in Leviticus) command not to give privilege in judgement to honorable or to miserable person. I guess that this could be your starts point-search for articles on ethics that refer to this notion.--Gilisa (talk) 22:12, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Such a series of events could be referred to as 'The rise and fall of so-and-so'. --JoeTalkWork 21:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Israel and the swastika
What is the legal status of the swastika in Israel? --88.78.239.248 (talk) 20:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Illegal and could lead one who carry it immediately to detention.--Gilisa (talk) 21:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding the conversation here, are there any exemptions for literary/scholarly usage? -- 128.104.112.149 (talk) 22:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Under what law? This Times article of 2007 says "There is no law explicitly banning anti-Semitism in the Jewish state, simply because it was never expected to occur."  If you can cite a reliable source then we can add this to the Swastika article, which mentions legal issues in a number of countries, but not Israel. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 23:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Considering the large Palestinian population, why is anti-Semitism so unexpected? --Nricardo (talk) 02:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a good point Nricardo. However, the Palestinian you are talking about are Israeli Arabs and while Jews haterd is not unfamiliar to part of them (but certainly not to all) they don't express it by using Nazi symboles mostly. More interesting is that large part of them aconsider the holocaust as the worse crime ever. Without getting into discussion about this, their anti Semiti is mostly based on extreme Islamic views and not on racial ideas. It's not that there are not Israeli Arabs who adore Hitler and the Nazis, but you can't find a neo Nazi groups among them. Those who undermine Israel among them or involve in terrorist actions are doing it as part of their identification with Palestinians, or (and in many cases BTW) as part of their Islamic ideology/ Arab nationalism and publicly they spek out against the Zionist's and not against all Jews. --Gilisa (talk) 18:31, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I can provide a handful of sources for this, but all would be in Hebrew. There were no specific rules against anti Semitism in Israel until lately. However, there are in Israel about 600,000 non Jewish Russians and Ukranians who immigrated to Israel from the former Soviet union after the the iron curtain fall. They immigrated to Israel under the law of return but they mostly have no connection to Judiasm or to Jewish life, they just had the right to immigrate to Israel because they were married to Jewish people or because they are the granchilds of one who was married to Jewish person. Since 2005 several Neo Nazi groups were  caught  in Israel and the Israeli parliament made rules against anti Semitism. Also, in 2006, a swastika tatoo was found under the armpit of an IDF soldier of Russian origin (only his grandfather is Jewish) -he was detent, his interent connections were checked and it was found that he was active to at the least two years in eastern European neo Nazi forums. Then, on an interview to the Israeli media his mother spoke out against Jewish people, and many parliament members, one hand with police officials, asked whether cacelling the Israeli citizenship of this family and sending them back to their country of origin is possible-however then the laws didn't allow it. Nevertheless, members of neo Nazi groups were charged under the laws against racism. But today there are also specific laws against neo Nazi activity and Nazi symboles.--Gilisa (talk) 09:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Fascinating, Gilisa. For future reference, could you provide the name of this soldier? Is there an article on the Hebrew Wikipedia about this case? BrainyBabe (talk) 15:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think they released his name. Here is a story about it.  There's also this one about a gang of neonazis.  TastyCakes (talk) 15:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Great work TastyCakes! BTW, they did release his name as much as I can recall, but I can't find it anywhere now.--Gilisa (talk) 18:19, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Non-Black, Asian, Hispanic ethnic minority American literature
Can anyone name a few books I can read that are written by a member of an ethnic minority who is not Black, Asian, or Hispanic? Any author from anywhere else (Europe, Middle East, India, etc...) would be acceptable. Thank you. - hello, i'm a member  |  talk to me!  23:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * There are thousands of such books, but I will start by naming some of the writers found here on WP, and you can check the articles for titles that might appeal to you: Bharati Mukherjee, born in India; Frank McCourt, born in Ireland; Jerzy Kosinski, born in Poland; Vladimir Nabokov, born in Russia . . . In fact, just type "any nationality-American" in the Search box in the column to the left, and then scroll down the article to the section on Notable "Any nationality-Americans", looking for sections on writers or literature. Bielle (talk) 23:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The criteria I am using are: a writer with a WP article who was born outside the US, but who was a naturalized US citizen at some time in his/her career and, as requested by the OP, was not “Black, Hispanic or Asian”. Here are a few others: Janwillem Lincoln van de Wetering, born in Holland; Deepak Chopra, born in New Delhi;  Amitav Ghosh, born in Kolcata; Saul Bellow, born in Canada, of Russian parents; Thomas Mann, born in Germany.
 * Ayn Rand, from Russia. -- Jayron  32  01:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And how could I leave out May Sarton of Belgium? Bielle (talk) 02:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Daniel Silva is Portuguese American. --Nricardo (talk) 02:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * But note that Germans, Belgians, Russians, etc. aren't ethnic minorities in the USA: they're all whites. Nyttend (talk) 03:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * They may be all "white" (or not), but even if they are, they can still be "ethnic minorities", which relates to ethnic origins outside (in this case) the U.S. and has nothing to do with skin pigment. And to Nricardo's addition of Daniel Silva to the list: I think he was born in the U.S. I was just providing names of writers born outside the U.S. who later became American citizens. Bielle  (talk) 04:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * By that standard, everyone is an ethnic minority: even English and Irish ancestries are a minority of the population. The only really clear definition of "minority" is the Census Bureau definition, in which the only "ethnicity" category is Hispanic/Latino status.  Nyttend (talk) 02:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The first challenge was figuring out who would qualify as an American ethnic minority, but not Asian, Black or Hispanic. How about Native Americans? “Here First” edited by Arnold Krupat and Brian Swann was the first Google hit (Amazon). “Native American Literature” got 140,000 hits. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Via this search, I find, amongst others, List of German Americans, List of works by Piers Anthony (who was English), Hugh Wheeler (ditto), Gordon R. Dickson (Canadian).
 * In non-fiction, there's Richard John Neuhaus (author of books on politics and religion who was Canadian), Wafa Sultan (author of a book on Islam who was Syrian).
 * And so on.
 * See also the literature, author or media sections in many of the pages in Category:Lists of American people by ethnic or national origin AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * List of Native Hawaiians includes novelist Kirby Wright. List of Native Americans doesn't seem to have any writers, which can't be right. --Lesleyhood (talk) 13:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Vine Deloria, Jr.. And can somebody please explain to me how someone from India is not Asian?  99.166.95.142 (talk) 15:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Louise Erdrich and Sherman Alexie are of Native American descent. Asians to many U.S. English speakers refers to east and southeast Asians. Catrionak (talk) 15:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.57.42.186 (talk) 15:37, 30 October 2009 (UTC)