Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 September 13

= September 13 =

How many US Army Colonels have been killed in combat/from combat-related injuries, ever?
I'm trying to figure this out. I was trying to use icasualties.org, which used to have an extensive search feature that allowed you to browse the fatalities in both OIF and OEF by rank, country, unit, name, age, etc. It no longer has that. I'm trying to find out the highest-ranking deaths in the United States Army, and then going down the ranks to see the frequency distribution. Right now the highest-ranking deaths I can find are of Captains... any help?--12.48.220.130 (talk) 00:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

edit: Found a Major--12.48.220.130 (talk) 00:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Just from a brief look at the List of Medal of Honor recipients for World War II, I can see a brigadier general, a rear admiral, and several lieutenant colonels who received the award posthumously. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Army Col. James W. Harrison Jr. was killed back in 2007.--12.48.220.130 (talk) 01:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd be surprised if anyone has made a list of all the US Army colonels killed in combat, ever. There are very many. Colonels died by the score in the Civil War; generals often got killed too—you had a better chance of surviving as a private. High ranking officers died less frequently in later wars; Simon Bolivar Buckner, Jr. was one of the highest ranking to be killed in WW2. —Kevin Myers 07:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This discussion lists lots of generals, though not all died in combat. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Custer famously died in combat, as well. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, but what about the current conflict? I've found 3 Colonels killed in Afghanistan.--12.48.220.130 (talk) 14:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This page seems complete for the Iraq war, and lists the following 30 colonels:

2-09-2009   Derby, Garnet R.         Lieutenant Colonel 10-05-2008   Stahlman, Michael R.     Colonel 9-14-2008   Marceaux Jr., Sidney J.  Colonel (Chaplain) 9-14-2008   Marino, Ralph J.         Lieutenant Colonel 6-26-2008   Galeai, Max A.           Lieutenant Colonel 4-06-2008   Scott, Stephen K.        Colonel 7-06-2007   Lockey, Jon M.           Colonel 6-11-2007   Felix, Glade L.          Lieutenant Colonel 1-20-2007   Canegata, David C.       Lieutenant Colonel 1-20-2007   Allgood, Brian D.        Colonel 1-20-2007   Kelly, Paul M.           Colonel 11-14-2006   Felts Sr., Thomas H.     Colonel 11-13-2006   Winston, Peter E.        Lieutenant Colonel 11-02-2006   Finken, Paul J.          Lieutenant Colonel 11-02-2006   Kruger, Eric J.          Lieutenant Colonel 9-04-2006   Gutierrez, Marshall A.   Lieutenant Colonel 5-18-2006   Holland, Daniel E.       Lieutenant Colonel 1-05-2006   McLaughlin, Michael E.   Lieutenant Colonel 11-05-2005   Wren, Thomas A.          Lieutenant Colonel 10-27-2005   Wood, William W.         Colonel 10-10-2005   James II, Leon G.        Lieutenant Colonel 6-07-2005   Crowe, Terrence K.       Lieutenant Colonel 6-05-2005   Westhusing, Theodore S.  Colonel 5-28-2005   Smart, Albert E.         Lieutenant Colonel 10-13-2004   Phelan, Mark P.          Lieutenant Colonel 7-28-2004   Greene, David S.         Lieutenant Colonel 10-26-2003   Buehring, Charles H.     Lieutenant Colonel 10-16-2003   Orlando, Kim S.          Lieutenant Colonel 8-27-2003   Sherman, Anthony L.      Lieutenant Colonel 5-19-2003   Baragona, Dominic Rocco  Lieutenant Colonel
 * No generals appear in the list. --Sean 17:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's a similar list for Afghanistan: 12 Colonels and Lt. Colonels, no generals:

5-26-2009   Stratton, Mark E.        Lieutenant Colonel 9-18-2008   Wiley, James L.          Lieutenant Colonel 6-21-2008   Walton, James J.         Lieutenant Colonel 5-20-2008   Moore, Joseph A.         Lieutenant Colonel 1-11-2008   Berrettini, Richard J.   Lieutenant Colonel 6-01-2007   Robinson, Michael A.     Lieutenant Colonel 5-06-2007   Harrison Jr., James W.   Colonel 6-12-2006   Munier, Charles E.       Lieutenant Colonel 5-05-2006   Fenty, Joseph J.         Lieutenant Colonel 11-27-2004   McMahon, Michael J.      Lieutenant Colonel 10-03-2003   Kimbrough, Paul W.       Lieutenant Colonel 3-23-2003   Stein, John              Lieutenant Colonel
 * --Sean 17:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * PS, I should note that I did not filter on cause of death, but they list it on those pages. If you want to do more sophisticated data munging, it would be straightforward to get the data into a spreadsheet as CSV.  --Sean 17:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I took the liberty of doing this for you: here. --Sean 19:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Islamic factoids in Borges
1. Somewhere, off-handedly, Jorge Luis Borges refers to Muhammad being taken up to heaven, departing just as a bucket of water has been kicked over, and returning before a single drop of water has fallen. This is used to illustrate differences in the perception of time. My question is, where does this story come from? I know next to nothing of Islam, and would be curious to know if it is a bona fide Islamic tradition, either from the Qur'an or elsewhere, or if it is merely an artistic fabrication on Borges's part.

2. Somewhere else, also off-handedly, Borges mentions an event in Islamic eschatology: every creator of idols is confronted by his creations, which strike him as imperfect and deformed. Then the idolater and his creations are cast into hellfire. This factoid is used as a metaphor for the frustrations of the artist. It strikes me as a probable fabrication, but I'm not sure.

I don't even remember where I read these two things. If someone out there is more familiar with Borges or with Islam, I would appreciate being enlightened on either count. L ANTZY T ALK 01:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * On factoid 1, that looks like a reference to Muhammad's ascension or Mi'raj. I don't know about factoid 2.  Marco polo (talk) 02:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. That article is a great help to me. L ANTZY T ALK 02:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not sufficiently familiar with Spanish idiom, but in English the expression "to kick the bucket" is an old-fashioned euphemism for "to die". (I know this isn't exactly what the OP asked.) BrainyBabe (talk) 08:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No. 1. is told in the Burak (or Buraq) entry of Book of Imaginary Beings. No. 2. is kind of the plot of The Circular Ruins buthe might have described it more specifically elsewhere it does sound familiar I will dig a little more.  meltBanana  16:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Dhani Harrison
I have copied the following from the titled article:
 * Harrison's first name is pronounced similarly to the name Danny but with an aspirated 'd'. He is named after two notes of the Indian music scale, 'dha' and 'ni'.

If one or more of the linguists here could give us the/a definitive IPA for his name, we could put that in the article instead of the text shown. Thanks. // BL \\ (talk) 02:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If it's the same sound as in "dharma" then the IPA should be /d̪ʱ/. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * When I first heard him say it in an interview, I thought he said "Donny", not "Danny". Therefore, the IPA suggested by Adam Bishop looks correct to me. --  k a i n a w &trade; 04:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing from the above that you're an American, Kainaw. Would you differentiate between Donny and Dah-knee? Malcolm XIV (talk) 16:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It depends on the speaker. If it is an accent I'm not used to hearing, everything sounds funny.  Since nearly everyone I work with is not an American, I am pretty good at tuning in to many different accents. --  k a i n a w &trade; 16:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I have just realized that, though I meant this question to go on the Language Desk, I obviously put it here on Humanities. I am grateful that (a) no one has chastised me and (b) Adam Bishop and Kainaw have provided answers. I do need the IPA for the whole of the name, however: Dhani Harrison. Thanks. (If someone feels the need to move this to the Language desk, please feel free. // BL \\ (talk) 14:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Will raising the Fixed Deposit rate induce in more savings?
With the current turmoil in the banking system all across the globe, will raising the FD rate induce more savings in the financial institutions ? Arteyu ? Blame it on me !  07:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It should induce more savings but not appreciably. What really increases savings is a bleak forecast of the economic future. Raising the FD rates will divert savings from shares, debentures, bonds, gold and all kinds of mixed funds. Raising FD rates will also raise the lending rates inturn hurting retail and institutional loans, hence curbing real growth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabilosha (talk • contribs)

The rate that should lead to changes in behavior is the real interest rate, that is, the deposit (lending) rate minus inflation. Since the US is running 2% deflation, real deposit rate are actually pretty high.DOR (HK) (talk) 04:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Struggling to be published
I'm a young writer who's been trying to get published for years, and it doesn't seem to getting me anywhere. I've searched all of the net and sent out queries and synopsises to various publishers, not to mention writing contests, but with no response. The story I wrote is a short story about how vulnerable today's family is, now all I need is to find someone willing to publish it. Do you know who can go with it and which ones will pay well for it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.202.139.241 (talk) 08:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Have you tried Self-publishing? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Two more helpful resources:
 * (1) If you think the reason for the rejections may be you haven't found the right publisher/method of landing a publisher, an invaluable resource would be the archives here: - detailed advice on effectively submitting your work, written by a literary agent.
 * (2) If you think the reason may be the writing itself still needs work, read the archive here - advice with a focus on improving your writing (voice, pace, overwriting, etc) from a published author (90 books) who got rejected for nearly 20 years before her first sale.
 * Sorry I don't have any resources specifically for short story writers. If you consider self-publishing, you might think about whether and how you could overcome the marketing difficulties (assuming you would like both to earn something and see the piece distributed widely). Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My suggestion is to keep writing. Don't quit your day job yet, but keep at it. Publishing will not make you rich quickly; for most people, even being published doesn't guarantee any real money coming in. But you will only improve if you keep at it. Avoid self-publishing—it is just a waste of your own money. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I second 98's last point. Excluding certain special circumstances which do not include such fiction, a writer should never pay any money directly in order to get published, whether as "agents' fees" or anything else. Any such fees or expenses should come out of the money the writer is paid by the publisher after acceptance or publication. This does not include fees paid for writing courses or other tuition, which may sometimes be worthwhile. Another reputable blog you may find helpful is http://absolutewrite.com/ 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * So far as I am aware, Lulu does not charge upfront fees to an author to publish; instead they take a percentage of the profit (sale price minus printing cost). This is based on my son's experience selling fiction through them. Note that I not recommending Lulu (nor am I saying you should not use them), merely pointing out that at least one self-publishing company does not require the author to pay. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A P.S. on that, a ISBN number costs around $100. Amazon will list without an ISBN but not standard booksellers, who require it (Barnes and Noble, etc.) V ЄСRUМВА  ♪  12:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing to remember about "self-publishing" services is that in reality most are largely printing and binding services. Publishing in the traditional model involves having an active marketing and sales force who are respected by booksellers and who actively and successfully promote their books to those sellers, who will generally not even consider stocking 99.9% of self-published works (I speak as a former professional bookseller and later publisher's editor). Having a garageful of self-financed volumes, which may not have passed through the refining process of professional editing, does not make one a published writer in most people's eyes. New internet-based models of publishing are only just beginning to emerge and have not yet become financially serious contenders to the traditional model, though they doubtless will in the indeterminate future.
 * The OP mentions only net-based attempts to find a publisher. "76", I would advise you to study current or recent editions of The Writers' and Artists' Yearbook or The Writer's Handbook (in the UK) or the equivalent publication in your own country if different, which should be available at any good public library, to find possible markets and further helpful advice. You also seems to imply having circulated only one story: you need to consider that, regardless of your own, your (tactful) friends' and your (loving) relations' opinions, your writing may simply not be good enough to publish - as has been suggested above, most successful writers spend many years and produce many unsuccessful attempts before achieving publication: one popular rule-of-thumb is that you have to write a million words of rubbish before you start to get good enough; this doesn't apply to a few rare individuals, but statistically, you're unlikely to be one of them. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

'Acquittal' from a death by hanging charge
Is it true that initially the murder sentence was commuted as '... shall be hung' but there was some lawyer who found out a loophole so that his client was only 'hung' but not executed. From then onwards they changed it to 'death by hanging' or 'hung until death'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.132.118.34 (talk) 13:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know which country you are thinking about but there was a change to the wording of the sentence of death in England and Wales in 1957. The traditional sentence was "that you shall be hanged by the neck until your body be dead". The Judges slightly revised the wording in 1903 to "you be hanged by the neck until you be dead". Reforms in the mid-19th century had already stretched the meaning of the sentence by aiming to break the prisoner's neck in the fall – the so-called 'long drop method' – so that death would actually occur in an instant. The sentence itself remained the same until 1948 when the House of Commons voted against capital punishment, and all death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment; it was thought appropriate to shorten the formula and so the sentence was changed to say that "unless His Majesty shall otherwise order, you shall suffer death by hanging". The House of Commons was overruled by the House of Lords and capital punishment returned, so the Judges reverted to the traditional sentence except that they retained "that you .. suffer death by hanging" instead of "hanged by the neck until you be dead". This form of words was approved by Parliament in the Homicide Act 1957. Sam Blacketer (talk) 14:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Why was "Dead" repeated 3 times in the judicial condemnation "Hanged by the neck until you are Dead, Dead, Dead, and may God have mercy on your soul?" See also, from 1777 . This same weird and redundant formula was supposedly used in the U.S in sentencing of an outlaw, to which he is said to have replied "And you can go to Hell, Hell, Hell!" . Edison (talk) 20:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Tho it doesn't answer your question, you may be interested in "Hanging from a historical and physiological point of view" from The Medical Times and Gazette, June 10, 1871.&mdash;eric 20:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * John Lee had his sentence commuted after 3 failed attempts but it doesn't appear to have been a legal necessity Nil Einne (talk) 21:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanx alot guys, really appreciated the depth of your answers..I guess it was only an urban legend —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.34.195 (talk) 03:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Meleager (general)
Apparently Meleager is the son of Neoptolemus I of Epirus. Whom were the children of Meleager?--Doug Coldwell talk 14:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The rather extensive biography from Who's who in the age of Alexander the Great: prosopography of Alexander's empire by Waldemar Heckel makes no mention of children. He doesn't even know Meleager's wife's name or her family.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What an excellent source! I read over and see what you mean. This source says the father of Arsinoe of Macedon was Meleager. It looks like this Meleager of Royal blood descended from Alexander I. Are we talking two differnet Meleagers do you suppose, OR could they be one and the same. The Meleager in the Google source is in the right time period as Alexander the great and could certainly have been one of his generals (I believe). Really interested in any additional information you might be able to find on Arsinoe. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell talk 22:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't assume that Meleager's father Neoptolemus was the same person as Neoptolemus I of Epirus. Note that Who then was a gentleman's source doesn't say his father was the king. Also see Smith which separates the entry for Meleager's father from that of the king. --Cam (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point with Neoptolems. Do you see any blood relationship between Arsinoe of Macedon and Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great? Example might be niece, sister, step-sister, aunt, etc. It appears that Arsinoe was a concubine of Phillip II and passed over to be the queen. Olympias became the queen instead. Would you say Arsinoe would be bitter because of this since it looks like she might have been from Royal blood and she became a prostitute instead?--Doug Coldwell talk 11:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Celibacy
When a man wants to become a priest, he must respect celibacy. Celibacy is to not have sexual relationships from that day forward or it means that person must be virgin. --190.50.85.101 (talk) 17:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, do you have a question?Popcorn II (talk) 18:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are men - even with children - who became catholic priests after their wife died. So, no, there is no need for a catholic priest to be "virgin". -- 91.45.103.122 (talk) 18:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In fact it is theoretically permissable for a man with a living wife (and children) to become a Roman Catholic priest, although he might be required to refrain from sexual relations with her thereafter. I believe there have been rare instances of this, where the man in question was an Anglican priest who had converted. To answer the original question directly, celibacy does not require prior virginity.87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Episcopal priests are apparently "welcomed back into the fold", even if they have families. The celibacy policy for Catholic priests is based on the theory that they are "married to the Church". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 20:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There was a more or less serious religious novel "The Accidental Pope" about a guy who left the priesthood to get married, started a family, then became widowed and ended up becoming Pope. IMO it wasn't very good, but it had some entertaining scenes involving the Pope's young children running around in the Vatican and getting underfoot. 67.122.211.205 (talk) 23:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as the Pope goes, there did not use to be a requirement for someone to be a priest to be elected Pope; Leo X was the last so elevated in the 1500's. Pope Paul III was a priest, but only shortly before becoming Pope; and he had several children legitimately, so it seems like the entire "celebate priest before becoming Pope" is a fairly recent idea.  There have also been Pope's whose father has been pope, either legitimately, as with Pope Silverius, or illegitimately, as was suspected of some of the "Cardinal-nephew" later elevated to Pope.  -- Jayron  32  03:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And of course Pope Alexander VI was not only non-celibate, but flaunted his mistresses quite openly. --Pykk (talk) 09:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Marco Polo's pope, Pope Gregory X was famously not even a priest when elected pope (merely an archdeacon), and his immediate predecessor Pope Clement IV had fathered two daughters before entering the priesthood. As explained in the Clerical celibacy and Clerical_celibacy_(Catholic_Church) articles, the requirement of celibacy only applies to the Latin rite within the Catholic church (not to eastern rite Catholics) and limited exceptions can be made for married Protestant clergymen who convert to Catholicism... AnonMoos (talk) 06:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This article concerns a father and son who are both catholic priests. The article says "They are allowed to stay within wedlock despite being priests in the Catholic Church but are expected to remain celibate." --ColinFine (talk) 23:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm very dubious about the last bit "but are expected to remain celibate", & reluctant to take the Indie's word for it. It's not in our article, which just says that if widowed they cannot remarrry. See also this which says nothing of the sort, and this which contradicts it. The married priest in the article is 70, so .... Johnbod (talk) 04:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Just a point of note - i recently went to Rome and visited the Vatican (amazing by the way) i took the usual touristic tour of the vatican before going it alone for a more deep look at the massive collection of art ect; On the tour it was told that quite a fgew popes used various rooms for mass orgies; so the idea of celabacy is some what distortedChromagnum (talk) 06:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Money Markets & Financial Institutions
When the Federal Reserve comes into the money market to mop up excess liquidity, banks put their money (the deposits) in the central bank at OPR plus a spread, which means they get more than 3.5%.” What are the tools used by the Federal Reserve to achieve the statement, and why the move is done in the money market rather than financial market ? 218.111.21.12 (talk) 19:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC) Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Just wondering...
Are business telephone customers billed for incoming calls? 74.64.121.56 (talk) 20:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If they operate freephone numbers, or single-rate numbers (like 0845) then they pay the excess. Other than that, business telephony billing is much like a buy-in-bulk equivalent of consumer telephone billing. They also get billed for services (which are often available to consumer too, but make more sense to business) like where your personal number rings in five different places in once; whether things like that are billed on a flat-rate or per-call depends on the business plan and the provider. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 20:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually 0845 numbers can actually generate money for the firm. If you're calling 0845, 0870 or similar numbers the phone company and the company share the revenue - see Non-geographical telephone numbers in the United Kingdom. Exxolon (talk) 00:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The NHS has now banned the use of these numbers--88.109.132.126 (talk) 01:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I am from the USA, and am concerned with regular phone numbers only, but I think Finlay answered my question. Thanks. 74.64.121.56 (talk) 19:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Qing Dynasty
Would China have been better off in the 19th centuries if the Qing Dynasty hadn't come along? If China had remain under the rule of a Han ethnic dynasty instead of the Manchu. Would China have modernized and become a constitutional monarchy like Thailand or Japan?--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This is not a discussion forum to debate what might have happened. To keep it simple and on fact... The Ming Dynasty collapsed due to a failure in leadership, extreme corruption in government, a complete collapse of the economy, and multiple hardships such as famine, disease, and earthquakes.  The Ming Dynasty was not in a position to regain power.  It was just waiting to be overthrown. --  k a i n a w &trade; 21:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The period from ca. 1450 to 1800 was a period of overall population growth (interrupted by periods of turmoil) in China, as a number of Western-hemisphere crops were adopted, and the area under cultivation and the labor-intensity of agricultural methods increased. Other than such incremental agricultural improvements, and the political upheavals following the change of dynasties, there was no observable tendency to make or accept innovations that would transform the workings of the existing system in any major way, and few influences from Western cultures were accepted (other than certain astronomical observations, and some mechanical items which were regarded as basically exotic toys).  I don't see what basis there would be to extrapolate a tendency towards limited constitutional monarchy (something rather alien to traditional Chinese culture, which had its own ideals of good government and good rulers) or an incipient industrial revolution... AnonMoos (talk) 06:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Getting Seed Capital
Let's suppose a guy wants to start a company that makes electronic goodies. To finance his venture, he approaches a Venture Capital (VC) firm. If he was any hopes to receive funding, must he have designs, patents, technology whitepapers, etc.? Or is an idea that is realistic, has simple designs for, and an effective marketing campaign sizeable enough for some VC's to give him funding? Thx for explaining, and respond on my talk page plz.--LastLived (talk) 21:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have extensive knowledge of this subject due to being a fan of Dragons' Den! You need to show two main things - that there is a market for your product(s) (you need a good product and some market research) and that other people can't steal that market (a good patent will do that). It also helps to show that you (or a partner) has some entrepreneurial skill. It also helps if you have a significant amount of money that you have or can put into the business yourself. --Tango (talk) 21:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Be aware that if you don't have a patent, and you start telling other people about your idea, it can prevent you ever getting a patent. Be careful if you think you might ever want to apply for a patent. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think VC types want to see the two criteria mentioned by Tango, but I think that they would also want to see a solid business plan. Marco polo (talk) 19:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

First Person
What's the oldest example of a story written in first person? TheFutureAwaits (talk) 23:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If you are willing to count non-fiction works like memoirs and autobiographies then a good candidate is Confessions by St. Augustine. Still, other works even older are written in the first person; if you count poetry, then Song of Songs dates from the tenth century B.C. or so, and is written in the first person, from two different people.  -- Jayron  32  03:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The answer to this depends on what is meant by "story," and also by "first person" and even "written." For example, the Odyssey is in the third person, but many of its most famous sections are told by Odysseus in flashback.  This first-person flashback would have taken about 4 hours when recited in full and was probably sometimes presented on a stand-alone basis.  The Odyssey was probably composed in the eighth century B.C. (probably earlier than the Song of Songs, which uses post-exilic language), but may not have been written down until later.  John M Baker (talk) 05:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There are inscriptions composed in the first person by Sargon I, who reigned as king of the old-Assyrian Kingdom from ca. 1920 BCE to 1881 BCE. They are brief narrative reports--Wetman (talk) 09:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting. Thanks for your help! TheFutureAwaits (talk) 14:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The Story of Sinuhe from around 2000 BC is also told in first person. It seems a lot of ancient stories were written in first person, probably because they were meant to be acted out when told. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The Ten Commandments are in first person, by God no less. Not exactly a story, although God does tend to rant a bit, talking about how jealous He is of other gods and so on. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)