Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 September 15

= September 15 =

Conflict thesis?
Is the claim in the conflict thesis article--namely, that the thesis has been discredited--accurate? It seems like it is, but after reading more about history, I'm beginning to doubt it.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.234.104 (talk) 02:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The idea that science and religion are somehow in conflict is really only something that is used by politicians when it is convenient to make it seem so when they come up for election. Historically, many major European scientists were very religious (Isaac Newton) or even clerics themselves (Nicholas Copernicus and Gregor Mendel).  Lots of devout people of all faiths have been and are currently active in scientific pursuits.  There have been isolated conflicts between religious people and scientific people, but this is different from the ideas of the "conflict thesis".  That idea holds that there are irreconcilable differences between a scientific worldview and a religious worldview.  This is clearly not true.  If you want to read a great, fairly short, and well accessable book which pretty handily refutes conflict thesis, then you should pick up Rocks of Ages by Stephen Jay Gould.  -- Jayron  32  02:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Dawkins has a thing or two to say about that in The God Delusion. "Gould carried the art of bending over backwards to positively supine lengths in one of his less admired books, Rocks of Ages." 81.131.28.218 (talk) 02:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Science and the general concept of religion aren't in conflict, but science is certainly in conflict with most particular religions. For example, The Bible says life was created in a week about 6000 years ago, science says it evolved over the last few billion years - that is a conflict. Yes, most Christians choose to ignore that bit of the Bible since it is rather inconvenient, but that just makes them inconsistent. --Tango (talk) 02:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A modern name to add to the list is the current director of the NIH, an evangelical Christian (but not the crazy kind, apparently, as the Intelligent Design crowd seems to be embarrassed by him). --Sean 15:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've just gone and actually read the first few sentences of the article and I'm misinterpreting the question/thesis! It is talking about a historic conflict between religious people and scientists, not a logical conflict between the ideas, sorry. I think a conflict between religious people and scientifically minded people is a fairly recent occurrence, really. Historically there wasn't really a distinction - all educated people (in Europe, at least) would have studied theology and would have been religious (at least in practice, they might not of actually believed it, but they would have gone to church - many, like Newton, clearly did believe it very strongly). --Tango (talk) 02:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It looks like Jayron (and initially, Tango) thought I was talking about whether science and religion contradict each other, not whether they were historically opposed. I meant the latter.  I certainly don't need the reference desk to decide whether two ideas contradict each other; all I need to do is to read the ideas (in this case, the Bible and a biology/astronomy/cosmology textbook) and decide for myself.
 * Thanks for the answers so far! I was concerned about religious bias in the articles I find on the Internet.  So, it looks like the article is accurate, then?  --99.237.234.104 (talk) 03:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Coming in a bit late, but I'd like to recommend the book "Einstein's Luck", also published as "Fabulous Science", by John Waller. While certainly harbouring no religious or anti-science bias, it contains, among other intriguing stuff, a nice account of how the 19th century "battle" between the church and "Darwin's bulldogs" really went down. According to Waller's hypothesis, it was (in Britain at least) less about science versus religion than it was about up-and-coming, middle-class, professional researchers versus old-fashioned privileged gentleman scientists. And by the way, if you want to see someone bending over backwards but in the opposite direction, check out Christopher Hitchens trying to make the founding fathers of the U.S. into atheists.--Rallette (talk) 06:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Amongst professional historians of science, the conflict thesis is seen as pretty much discredited. How do they do so, in the face of, say, Galileo? Simple. They say, "Galileo wasn't a fundamental conflict between science and religion. It was a localized power conflict between Galileo and agents of the Inquisition." That is, it's a difference between saying there are fundamental issues at heart and whether you are talking about a localized issue (e.g. Galileo is deliberately defying the reigning power in his region just at a time when they feel the need to consolidate it for political purposes). Ditto Darwin and the Creationists—not about science v. religion, per se, but about the specific conditions of modernizing science in Victorian society, and what that represented. Or, in the modern era, one would suggest that the current Creationist debate has really very little to do with science v. religion, but the politics of religious fundamentalism, esp. in the United States.
 * Another main objection to the conflict thesis is that thinking about the interactions of science and religion in terms of the relatively few conflicts is misleading. A majority of the time, they got along reasonably well, and for every example one has of religion apparently antagonizing science (and vice versa), you have probably dozens more examples of scientists being inspired by, funded by, or otherwise engaged by religion. (Or, put another way, for every Galileo, you have a Newton.)
 * Sometimes the ways of wriggling out of the conflict thesis seem either a bit too hair-splitting or even ridiculous—like assertions that Galileo's interaction with the Inquisition should not be called a "conflict" but rather a "dialogue". (Yes, this has actually been argued. Yes, it is as silly as it sounds.) Alas, such is the way of academia. Nonetheless, I do think it is worth emphasizing that the conflict thesis from a historical standpoint is at best a distortion of its own, and rather extreme. There are plenty of examples to counter the idea that science and religion have interacted primarily by "conflict" historically—the Church was one of the major patrons of science for hundreds of years. Just the same, there have been a number of "conflicts" and perhaps that's the best way to describe them, and some of these conflicts have, in fact, centered largely on fundamental questions about who has the right to say what, which most people would agree is something core to the functions of both science and religion, even if there are also always tons of localized political factors involved. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Famous critics of university
I'm giving a presentation and I want to show a continual trend of people criticizing modern university for a segue. For example, Tolstoy argued that universities require student to memorize and regurgitate while ignoring their own thoughts that may differ from the instructor. Seeley claimed that a university can be good at advancing science or educating students, but not both. What are some modern (1900's) critics? -- k a i n a w &trade; 02:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mean from any time in the 20th c., or just the first decade of it? 81.131.28.218 (talk) 03:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Pirsig's Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance:_An_Inquiry_into_Values comes into mind. The novel -besides other topics - also describes the author's experiences at university. Here an excerpt from it:

Schools teach you to imitate. If you don't imitate what the teacher wants you get a bad grade. Here, in college, it was more sophisticated, of course; you were supposed to imitate the teacher in such a way as to convince the teacher you were not imitating, but taking the essence of the instruction and going ahead with it on your own. That got you A's. Originality on the other hand could get you anything...from A to F. The whole grading system cautioned against it.


 * And there is much more against universities in it. Quest09 (talk) 10:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not specifically about university, but it has pure Bertrand Russell pithiness: "Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid as a result of education." Matt Deres (talk) 12:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I wish I could recall who it was (possibly Clement Freud) who said that universities teach the "six R's - remedial reading, remedial 'riting, remedial 'rithmetic." Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Look for a book titled 'Tenured Radicals'; also, Allan Bloom's 'The Closing of the American Mind' touches on this subject. Rhinoracer (talk) 13:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Richard Feynman, in one or other of his two popular autobiographical works -
 * (Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!: Adventures of a Curious Character, with contributions by Ralph Leighton, W. W. Norton & Co, 1985, ISBN 0-393-01921-7, and
 * What Do You Care What Other People Think?: Further Adventures of a Curious Character, with contributions by Ralph Leighton, W. W. Norton & Co, 1988, ISBN 0-393-02659-0) -
 * describes being commissioned by the Government of, I think (don't quote me, read the books), Brazil to examine their university science teaching programs and determine why they were failing to produce many good scientists. One of his conclusions was that the students were being taught to regurgitate abstract formulae and descriptions but not to connect these with any actual phenomena in their everyday experience; thus they could say that light reflected from a surface is polarised and even write down relevant equations, but could not think of any actual examples even when they were sitting at a polished table with a view throught the window of the sun sparkling off the sea. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 13:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It was indeed Brazil. I'm not sure if he used the phrase, but he was basically describing cargo cult education.  In his popular essay on the textbook procurement process, Feynman describes how at the elementary level they don't even try to make science relevant to the real world.  "Do all stars have an "S" in them?"  How wonderful we have all memorized and regurgitated these examples for Kainaw!  --Sean 15:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks all. I was able to add a line of guys with little blurbs and it led very well from making note of the "memorization-regurgitation" problem to our modern solution: powerpoint slides!  Now, how much more sarcasm can I sink into praise of the powerpoint solution? --  k a i n a w &trade; 14:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My favorite is from H.L. Mencken: "Let us not burn the universities - yet. After all, the damage they do might be worse.... Suppose Oxford had snared and disemboweled Shakespeare!  Suppose Harvard had rammed its buttermilk into Mark Twain!"  Weepy.Moyer (talk) 17:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You might profitably trawl through Kingsley Amis's essays where he warned against the post-WW11 expansion of universities, with his much-quoted aphorism: 'More will mean worse'.

You might look into the twin revolutions of the University system at the start of the 19th century: Napoleon's creation of the Grande Ecole system, as a rational, meritocratic rival to the University; and the establishment, in Berlin, of the world's first research-oriented university,Humboldt University. Actually, universities have always been denounced. Even in the Middle Ages they were frowned upon as potential hotbeds of heresy. Rhinoracer (talk) 18:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Also take a look at the book A Tenured Professor, a novel by John Kenneth Galbraith, Publish or perish  for critics of specific aspects of a university.--Quest09 (talk) 19:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Non-resident American able to drive in America?
Here's an unusual situation: I'm an American, but have lived overseas for many years (currently a resident of China) and my US driver's license has long since expired. I have no legal residence in the U.S., but will be visiting there in Spring 2010. My understanding is that foreigners with legal driver's licenses in their home country are able to drive while visiting the States, but I'm not a foreigner... Stuck in a bit of a gray area as I am, I'm having trouble finding a definitive answer. I suspect this is a Federal matter, but I would most likely be driving in the Gulf Coast states if that's relevant. Can someone on the RefDesk help me? I submit that this falls firmly into the realm of legal reference, rather than legal advice... Thank you. 218.25.32.210 (talk) 06:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it does not fall in the realm of legal reference (whatever it may be). Answering if you can drive in the US would be legal advice. --Quest09 (talk) 08:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This is silly. Yes, it would be legal advice to tell him whether he could or could not drive. However, it would not be legal advice to refer him to the relevant statutes or resources. We can discuss our own experiences and refer the poster to resources. I would recommend the poster contact the DMV of whichever state he'll be visiting to ask. This situation must come up fairly often considering how many expats come out of the US. TheFutureAwaits (talk) 08:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Quest09, thank you for not helping! Thank you, TheFutureAwaits, for understanding the intent of my question. I was hoping someone could help me find online documentation. I've been through the State Department site and the Florida DMV pages and haven't been able to get ANYTHING remotely related. Nor can I find anything on Google about American expats driving in America with foreign DLs. I'm not asking for interpretation, hence the reference rather than advice. 218.25.32.210 (talk) 08:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * My non-help was not motivated by bad-faith or just to complain with the rules. The question is much more tricky that we might think. First, I doubt that you are right when you said that "My understanding is that foreigners with legal driver's licenses in their home country are able to drive while visiting the States". Driving without a valid DL can get you into serious trouble. Therefore, you'll need legal advice. Quest09 (talk) 08:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * says that via an International Driving Permit & a valid license in your home country foreigners are ok. However, I'm still in legal purgatory! 218.25.32.210 (talk) 09:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That is not exactly the same case as earlier. And yes, you still need legal advise, specially if you have had a US DL and you lost it. Quest09 (talk) 09:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Since you've been unable to track down any online information, surely the next best thing is to pick up the phone and call whoever might know the answer. If you're in China and don't want to rack up international call charges, why not call your nearest US embassy? --Richardrj talkemail 09:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

If you drive while you're in China, why not apply for an International Driving Licence? Malcolm XIV (talk) 09:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It is not clear that US citizens can just apply for an International DL. Just imagine that you have lost your DL while DUI. You could travel to Mexico or Canada and come back with an IDL. Possibly, there is some restriction against that. Quest09 (talk) 09:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't help you to get around the ban, though, would it? As 218 points out, an international driving licence is only valid in conjunction with a valid licence in your home country. --Richardrj talkemail 10:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but what is your home country? For a US citizen in the US, I could say, is it the US or not? Answering this question, since you would be interpreting laws, is already legal advise, which we don't give here in the RD. Quest09 (talk) 10:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the suggestion is only that he apply for an IDL. That says nothing about whether or not he will actually receive it.  All of which supports my already stated view that the only correct answer to the OP's question is not "we don't give legal advice" but "pick up the phone and talk to the authorities".  --Richardrj talkemail 11:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not giving legal advice implies, according to some fundamentalist interpretations, not even saying "pick up the phone" and find someone who can help you. Quest09 (talk) 11:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Three things which I feel confident saying, despite the restrictions on giving legal advice. The pages I've read don't make any restriction about it being only foreigners who can drive on a foreign license. This page just says "tourists", and that's you, if you are visiting. Also six months is probably more than enough time to get your US license renewed. At the very least, phone the DMV in the state you'll be visiting and check the legal situation with them. And finally, yes of course US citizens can apply for a IDP. What do you think they do when they want to drive abroad? DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant actually US citizens applying for a IDL to drive in the US. Quest09 (talk) 19:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I know you meant that. But the point is that there is no bar on US citizens applying for an IDP. In fact I wasn't asked about citizenship. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Does 218.25.32.210 even have a Chinese drivers license? He never stated that he is driving in China, and I understand that many there use mass transit or walk places. Why couldn't he just have someone drive him to a motor vehicle office in any state, with all his ID papers, and take the written and driving tests, and walk away with a valid US license? Edison (talk) 14:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

So are you going to be renting a car? I think the simplest thing would be to call Avis or whatever, explain exactly what you have by way of drivers license and see if they'll rent a car to you. If they will, I think it's pretty safe to assume you're in the clear. I'm almost certain they'll have no problem with a license from elsewhere. If you don't have a valid, current license from elsewhere, as Edison points out, they're not going to let you rent a car and it would be illegal to do so. TastyCakes (talk) 18:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A very little googling comes up with the following: The American Automobile Association is one of only two authorities in the US that can issue an IDP. The information I have summarized here is principally from its website. To qualify for an IDP issued in the US, the driver must have a valid US driver’s licence. | This site maintains that an IDP must always be issued by the nation from which the driver has obtain his/her driver’s licence. As China is | not a signatory to the   Geneva agreement of 1949, one cannot obtain an IDP from China. The IDP is valid only when carried in conjunction with, and acts as a translation of, a driver's license. It does appear that you will not be licensed to drive in the US unless (a) you first obtain a domestic licence from a country that also issues IDPs, and you also get an IDP from that country or (b) you re-qualify for a US licence. Citizenship does not appear to be the issue, though some jurisdictions issuing national driver's licences have a residency requirement. // BL \\ (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

OP returns! ... with a response from the FL DMV:

Thank you for your recent inquiry.

You may drive in Florida without a Florida driver license, if you have a valid license from another state or country and if you are a non-resident up to 1 year. You are considered a resident of Florida if you: Enroll your children in public school, or Register to vote, or File for a homestead exemption, or Accept employment, or Reside in Florida for more than six consecutive months.

We hope this information will assist you.

09/16/09

so there you have it. Thanks to everyone who tried to help. 61.189.63.208 (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Welsh History grants
I'm currently finishing my MA, and in a few years hope to go on to do my PhD in History, focusing on a biography of Gwilym Lloyd George, son of David Lloyd George. However, times ar hard (enter chrous of violins) and being given money would certainly makes things easier. Are there any institutes in Wales, official, public or private, that give out grants for research into Welsh history? Any info would be gratefully received. Cheers, Skinny87 (talk) 09:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you live in Wales? I'm sure that Universities and Colleges that do History Phds would have more information on funding your Phd. This pageis for a History Phd at Bangor university, and it has a phone number and email to contact the tutor. On that page it mentions that you can get funding from the Arts & Humanities Research Board; ESRC (Mode B); and occasional scholarships and bursaries. The tutor would obviously know more about the occasional funding available.  I also found this page about funding postgraduate research at Aberystwyth University. This page is from Cardiff University and mentions funding near the bottom.Snorgle (talk) 22:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Historical person obsessed with synchronizing clocks
I vaguely remember a story about a person, I think a historical person, possibly a king, who in his old age spent most of his time trying to keep all the clocks in his palace/residence in sync. The story fits nicely into a presentation that I'm working on, if only I were able to remember who this person was. Does the story ring a bell with anyone? --NorwegianBluetalk 15:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably not the historical figure you are looking for, but Doc Brown in Back to the Future seemed obsessed with syncing clocks. Googlemeister (talk) 16:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are the monks and Jeremy Clockson in Thief of Time, but that is definitely fiction, and more about balancing time than synchronising it. // BL \\ (talk) 16:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks both! I don't think it was fiction, but if it were, the story would be a lot older than these. --NorwegianBluetalk 18:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Douglas Adams touches on this idea in one of the Dirk Gentley books. Can't remember which book was which, but it was the one with Reg, the time-traveller. Reg mentions that George IV (I think!) was obsessed with making sure time kept going forward as his past was so horrible he didn't want to revisit it. No idea if there's a historical basis for that, but that may be where you picked up the idea. Matt Deres (talk) 18:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Mad king ludwig Ludwig II of Bavaria immediately springs to minds - but does seem to be the one, then there is King George III who was mad, and introduced a tax on all clocks, then there is Charles II of England and Louis XVI of France both possibly fond of clocks - at a time when clocks where new scientific instruments, both having quite a few clocks. These might be it.77.86.47.174 (talk) 19:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There is an anecdote that Immanuel Kant was a perfectionist about time. When going for his daily walk at a certain hour the inhabitants of the town set their watches accordingly. It is said that he was always on time. Another anecdote, however, tells the story of Kant reading a book by Hume, which kept him indoors for several days. Unsurprisingly, when Kant stopped showing up on his daily walk, the people of the town became worried of Mr Kant's health status.Ostracon (talk) 09:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I remember the anecdote as saying that it was when Kant departed from his rigid daily schedule that the inhabitants of Koenigsberg first knew that the French revolution might be really serious... AnonMoos (talk) 10:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Found the source -- that's how it's told in Chapter 3 of The Age of Revolution: 1789-1848 by E.J. Hobsbawm... AnonMoos (talk) 10:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * George III, I believe. Rhinoracer (talk) 10:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone. I've done a bit of googling based on the alternatives offered, without finding references to the story I'm looking for. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Kant. Ludwig rang a bell with me, but I've found no reference to the story itself, i.e. a person trying to syncronize the clocks just for the sake of it, doing a difficult but pointless task. Given that the story appears to be less well known that I thought, does anyone have suggestions for alternatives? A historical person doing a laborious meticulous task, just for the sake of getting it exactly right, even though it's pretty obvious that getting it exactly right is unimportant? --NorwegianBluetalk 12:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I suppose Sisyphus wouldn't count, since his is not a voluntary task? TomorrowTime (talk) 13:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. Moreover, the task should be meticulous, with pointless attention to detail. --NorwegianBluetalk 19:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Edward VII famously went in the other direction. --Sean 14:08, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Found it! The person was Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, after his abdication in 1556. The story is mentioned here. Quote: There, he spent his last days fishing or trying to synchronize his sizeable collection of clocks (he is said to have exclaimed once, "How could I have united all my dominions if I cannot even make these clocks strike the hour together?"). --NorwegianBluetalk 17:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Falsely claiming to have been awared medals/decorations in the armed forces...
Is this illegal in the UK - like it is in the US, under the Stolen Valor Act of 2005? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 18:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The only relevant act is the Uniforms Act 1894, which makes it illegal for a civilian to wear a military uniform (except during plays and the like). That includes "any dress having the appearance or bearing any of the regimental or other distinctive marks" which may arguably include medals, although I don't think it has been enforced in recent years. See Alan Mcilwraith for an example which included Wikipedia; he was not prosecuted. Sam Blacketer (talk) 19:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. After happening across the US law today whilst researching something else, I was reminded of a man who used to drink in a bar where I worked (whom actually sounds a lot like this Mcilwraith character). This guy claimed to be ex Paratroop Regiment and that he'd been awarded the Victoria Cross for service in the Falklands after bayoneting 25 Argentine soldiers in their sleep whilst trapped behind enemy lines. Then he'd apparently worked for MI6, carrying out assassinations in various places around the world (but he wasn't really supposed to talk about it). At some point, he'd racked up a ludicrous number of kills as a sniper too. It completely astounded me that some people actually seemed to take the drunken, mendacious old fraud at his word. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Pact with devil - story
Can anyone pin down this vaguely faust like story:

A man has a very harsh and bad life, suffering much (loss of parents, poverty etc), up till a point where somehow he meets the devil - he makes a pact the devil will give him all he wants in exchange for 30 years of his life, he accepts - and everything goes well... The twist is that the man discovers that the devil has tricked him, and taken the first 30 years of his life...

The details may not be accurate - can anyone identify this (I wonder if something like the 'twighlight zone' or 'tales of the unexpected' did this story?)77.86.47.174 (talk) 19:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No answer yet. Maybe you would have more luck on entertainment desk?  Googlemeister (talk) 20:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Ramadan fasting at extreme latitudes
How do muslims in, say, northern Sweden (or any other place at a very northern or southern latitude) deal with Sawm, especially during the local summer? What about fasting north or south of the polar circles when there's midnight sun? 79.194.40.66 (talk) 22:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to be witty here, but what about on the Moon or in a spaceship? Obviously, there are many instances where normal times as they were known to man when bibles were written will not fit into what we know now.  I'm answering from an Orthodox Jewish perspective, in which timing similarly plays a very important part of ritual observance, such as keeping the Sabbath and Jewish holidays, during which certain restrictions apply from sundown to sundown or from sunup to sundown.  In Iceland, there are times when sunup occurs very soon after sundown (I think in the ballpark of an hour or so), and when Ilan Ramon went on the spaceshuttle Columbia, he was faced with these issues (even though he was not concerned, as he was not quite fully observant). So your question is a good one, and at least in Judaism, has been dealt with by a number of prominent Jewish thinkers and commentators.  As that relates to Islam, I would probably say that it would not, because you would certainly not accept a Jewish ruling.  But that's all I have to say.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 02:33, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about that, but for an even more extreme environment, how about Ramadan in space? Adam Bishop (talk) 02:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The articles on Ramadan and the Islamic calendar are kind of vague about the range of Gregorian dates in which Ramadan can occur - but it's the 9th month in the Islamic lunar calendar, and although one of the links says it can occur from summer months to winter months, I don't think it literally occurs in either the dead of winter or the peak of summer, either of which would be a significant crimp in trying observe that month. I think it's typically in what we would think of as the fall, i.e. September-October-November. Obviously, a Muslim needs to weigh in here and educate all of us on this matter. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It is for questions like this that I think the "Religion reference desk" was proposed. Bus stop (talk) 02:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To take a line straight from Groucho, "Oh, no, we're not going to go through all that again!" What's kind of distressing is that the articles on the lunar calendar are of no help - although it may be that the, shall we say "flexible" way the months are determined each year makes it perhaps a bit difficult. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * From Historical Atlas of Islam by Malise Ruthven and Azim Nanji (2004) (| page 15) I summarize as follows: There is more than one solution. Some Muslim clerics insist that as long as there is any time between sunrise and sunset, no matter how little, the fast must be observed according to the strict rules. If there is no such break, then the fast should follow the time of the closest city that does have such a break. Another view involves distinguishing between direct and indirect sunlight, though nothing is said on the page about what happens under heavy cloud cover. Yet another view says: “A Muslim living in the far north should follow the pattern of observance prevailing in the nearest Muslim majority country.” The short answer appears to be that the degree of strict observance of the rules of this fast by any individual is likely to be equivalent to the degree of that individual's strict observance of the rules in general.


 * The same text states that the lunar month of Ramadan may occur at any time during our solar year, moving through a 35-year cycle. // BL \\ (talk) 03:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The last part is indeed mostly (our article says it's ~33 years) correct as a lunar year of 12 months is 354.37 days any pure lunar calendar drifts, in the 12 months case by about 11 or 12 days. (Obviously you could have a lunar calender with fewer or more months which would drift more or in a different direction.) Lunisolar calendars are obviously different. To give an idea, this year, Ramadan will end on ~20th September next year 10th September. The precise date will vary from location to location including how the date is determined Nil Einne (talk) 20:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Your link doesn't work but I presume refers to Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor for which the issue came up. . The guidelines published for him (I don't know if he did actually fast in the end) were to follow the schedule from his liftoff point if he choose to fast, which was not necessary since people traveling are not required to fast. You're also exempt if it's necessary for work etc. (If you can't fast you're supposed to make up for it when you can.) This is obviously an issue for people traveling on aeroplanes particularly westward. (For the crew they obviously have to ensure they are fit for duty and don't get too dehydated etc.) I believe it's common airlines from predominantly Muslim countries at least will aide those who wish to observe the fast by serving food again after the it comes time to break the fast if the passenger has missed an earlier meal and waking the passenger and serving food before it's time to start observing the fast. They may also provide dates or some other sort of wrapped snack to break the fast and announce when it's time since serving food is takes a while. (Obviously to avoid alienating their non Muslim passengers and Muslim passengers who choose not fast while traveling they will otherwise mostly observe the normal schedule.) I'm pretty sure I've experienced this myself before although it's been a while so can't remember it that well.     Royal Brunei Airlines is an interesting experience, they have prayers for a safe journey broadcast on the inflight entertainment system before takeoff and landing. Oh and for Malaysia Airlines and Brunei both IIRC, probably other airlines they show the direction of Mecca on the flight information display thing that you sometimes have on the in flight entertainment, showing the speed, direction, current location, altitude etc, estimate arrival time etc Nil Einne (talk) 20:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This is an issue for Jews as well, for the onset of shabbat, and the like. I've also read discussions of the onset of Ramadan in Australia, because it is determined by the onset of the full moon, but the full moon where is not noted. In Australia that can be a couple of days different than in Mecca. Some Muslims observe it from the time it hits Mecca, others from the time it hits at the place of residence. The general notion is that as long as it is observed, few people are concerned by it. IIRC there was an article about shabbat in polar regions, but I can't remember what it was called. Steewi (talk) 03:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think you mean Australia and Mecca are a couple of days different. At most 24 hours. Bus stop (talk) 13:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's an article about shabbat in the midnight sun in Barrow, AK. It's not the Muslim approach, but it discusses similar issues. Steewi (talk) 03:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answers so far, everyone. I think I'm getting the picture. 79.194.62.210 (talk) 12:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you intend to link to Jewish law in the polar regions? Nil Einne (talk) 20:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's well to keep in mind that in Muhammad's time and following, all the Muslims were in the middle east, and no one knew anything about the polar regions, let alone space travel. At some point, presumably, adjustments will have to be made to how the month's activities are honored. One hypothetical way would be to go by a Mecca-based sunrise-sunsit rather than local sunrise-sunset (adjusted for time zone, of course). I don't know that that has ever been proposed, though, that's just my idea. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To extend Nil Einne's comment above on the change in the end of Ramadan in 2009 and 2010, | this site sets out its various aspects from 2009 to 2015, by which time the fasting occurs in June by the Julian calendar. // BL \\ (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Some answers on determining the prayer times (which subsequently determine the fasting times) at extreme latitudes are found here, particularly Point 4 on that page. Basically their are two opinions on the matter: either follow Mecca's hours or follow the nearest populated place that has a clear distinction between night and day; so long as everyone in the extreme-latitude city follows the same rule it will be fine. Funny enough my sister is flying out to Dubai tomorrow on Etihad Airways, I'll be sure to ask her what they do on the plane w.r.t. iftar (breaking the fast). As a traveller she's not obliged to fast tomorrow so she's decided not to. Zunaid 22:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

What are the names of Charities owned by African Americans?
i have a list of non profit orgs, but i need a list of ones owned and started by african americans. i have one: Keep a Child Alive owned by alicia keys ?198.86.238.116 (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC
 * | This site might be useful. // BL \\ (talk) 00:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Remember that no one, by definition, owns a non-profit charity.--Wetman (talk) 06:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * One of the most well-known that's strictly a charity (with no associated lobbying arm, as far as I'm aware) is the United Negro College Fund, famously promoted by Dan Quayle... AnonMoos (talk) 09:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)