Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 September 30

= September 30 =

Famous Composers
Hi, I want your opinion on the most famous or publicly recognizable composition by each of the following composers:
 * Claude Debussy - Claire de lune from Suite Bergamasque''
 * Ralph Vaughan Williams -
 * Richard Wagner - Ride of the Valkyries
 * Johann Sebastian Bach - Toccata and Fugue in D Minor
 * Ludwig van Beethoven - Für Elise, Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven)
 * Frédéric François Chopin - "Funeral March
 * Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart -Serenade No. 13 (Mozart) aka Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
 * Franz Peter Schubert - [Ellens dritter Gesang|[Ave Maria]]
 * Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky - 1812 Overture, Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy

Thank you! The point of this is a presentation where I want to have a very short selection or two from each composer that (hopefully) anyone could go "Aha!" and recognize their music. Mac Davis (talk) 00:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Serenade No. 13 (Mozart) aka Eine Kleine Nachtmusik from Mozart. Dismas |(talk) 00:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * When you say "recognizable", do you mean the piece most people will know they have heard and can hum along or the piece about which they are most likely to say, "That's Ralph Vaughan Williams's XXXXX"? // BL \\ (talk) 00:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What they have heard and can hum along to, regardless of which they know what it is called or who wrote it. Mac Davis (talk) 00:37, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wagner's is surely the Ride of the Valkyries. Algebraist 01:49, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Vaughan Williams would be either his setting of O Little Town of Bethlehem or something from the English Folk Songs Suite. // BL \\ (talk) 02:03, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would think Beethoven's Fifth is his most famous work. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik would probably be Mozart's. Wagner's, Ride of the Valkyries ("Ho Jo To Ho!!!"). Tchaikovsky's, I would say the entire Nutcracker Suite, except on July 4th when it's got to be the 1812 Overture. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't the choral part of the ninth better known than the fifth? Perhaps there're geographical differences on that one. Algebraist 12:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * For Schubert, there are several possibilities, but my guess would be the Ave Maria. After all, it was in Fantasia, and it gets a lot of airplay around Christmas for some reason. Deor (talk) 04:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, good choice. Also in that film were Bach's Toccata and Fugue, and Tchaikovsky's Nutracker Suite - and Beethoven's Sixth, but the Fifth is probably the best known, or at least the most cliched. If this were the 90s, the answer to the Schubert question might have been, "The theme from the TV sitcom Wings". →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, BB. I was going to add "… and it's a favorite of bad sopranos in churches everywhere", but that seemed rather snarky. Deor (talk) 04:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To do "Ave Maria" right requires a good solo voice or choir. Context is not a requirement though. For example, Barbra Streisand did "Ave Maria" on a Christmas album. She did it straight and apparently resisted all temptation to retitle it "Oy Vey, Maria!" →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And now I've got a vaguely related Tom Lehrer classic ringing in my head. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Would that be the one ending "Jingle Bells kaching, Jingle Bells kaching..."? On second thought, that would be Stan Freberg.  Nice to know that Tom and Stan are still with us.
 * I can't listen to The 1812 Overture without hearing an old parody done by, I think, Spike Jones: "There was an emperor, Napoleon, who never heard a nickelodeon..."
 * This would be high on the list of recognizable Bach bits. PhGustaf (talk) 05:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Jesu, yes, definitely a very recognizable Bach, especially at Christmastime. Regarding the other, you're thinking of Stan's "Green Chri$tma$". I was thinking of this, by Tom Lehrer, the very end of the song: "Ave Maria / Gee it's good to see ya / Gettin' ecstatic 'n / Sorta dramatic 'n / Doin' the Vatican Rag!" →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 05:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Where's JackofOz when we need him? -Richardrj talkemail 07:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Working, unlike you bunch of novomundane and antipodean layabouts. :)  For Chopin, the Funeral March is very well known, of course; but I'd also be tempted to mention the Military Polonaise or the one in A flat (Heroic).  Or the Minute Waltz.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * For Vaughan Williams I'd suggest his Fantasia on Greensleeves (hmm, no article!). For Schubert there's also the well-known melody from his Unfinished Symphony, and his Marche Militaire in D major. By the way, it's quite possible that Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor wasn't actually written by Bach, wasn't written for organ, and wasn't originally in D minor - see the 'Attribution' section of the article. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. reading the talk page for the Toccata & Fugue reminded me of Bach's so-called "Air on the G String", familiar to British TV viewers of a certain age as "the music from the Hamlet advert". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * "Air on the G String" ... wasn't that about Gypsy Rose Lee? :) ... The "Greensleeves" variation is definitely a good one, though I don't know how well known it is. But it's on my iPod under Christmas songs, right after "Green Chri$tma$". :) →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, he took an extremely famous folk tune and wrote a fantasia on it. Anyone hearing the main theme would recognise it as "Greensleeves", but not necessarily as anything by RVW.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * True, it's a bit of a cheat to use arrangements, but the sound of the Fantasia is very distinctive even without the main melody. More to the point, I can't think of anything by RWW that would satisfy the OP's criteria. Rather bizarrely, I think knowing the composers well actually makes it hard to answer the question. For example I would instantly recognise any part of the Brandenburg Concertos; likewise for Schubert and The Trout (song or quintet), but I suspect those are much less familiar to the general public. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Afterthought: maybe Linden Lea or the hymn tune Sine Nomine (sung to "For all the saints") would qualify for RVW. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wagner's greatest hit is probably the Bridal Chorus, known as "Here Comes the Bride", from Lohengrin. It's a good thing he wrote it; otherwise we might be using the more bombastic wedding march from Götterdämmerung.  It's possibly worth noting that neither of these weddings turned out well, exactly.  PhGustaf (talk) 16:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I would much rather hear "Ride of the Valkyries" as the conquering bride marches down the aisle wearing a winged helmet and carrying a spear. What a "themed" wedding that would be, eh? Just so long as they don't have to play the "Siegfried Funeral March" by the time it's over. That could be a bad sign: from a Viking wedding to a Viking funeral in the space of a few hours. Shouldn't have left that potato salad in the solarium. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The funeral march was the theme for the movie Excalibur, for example, but it might be better known for its melody than by its name. →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure Claire de Lune is a nice piece, but I can hear Victor Borge now, calling it "Clear de Saloon". →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Borge was one of the funniest people ever, or at least one of the funniest people to be recorded. He told the same jokes over and over for sixty years or so, and managed to make them funny each time.  Another common bridal march is the Trumpet Voluntary, though it's not exactly clear who wrote it. PhGustaf (talk) 18:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * BB, you hear almost correctly. Borge did have a routine where he said the new name of Clair de lune is "Clear the room".  --  JackofOz (talk) 21:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I would have suggested that Vaughan Williams' best publicly known work would be The Lark Ascending. I can only guess that I'm wrong, as others far more knowledgeable than myself don't appear to have mentioned it yet!  Mae din \talk 19:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That occurred to me, too. Actually, RVW is much better known to "music lovers" than to the general public.  The person in the street has probably heard of all the other names and could name something each of them wrote, but I'd guess most would have no clue who this "Mr Williams" was.  Ask them to name some classical composers, and most would mention Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, possibly Grieg and Brahms, and almost certainly a generic "Strauss", referring to someone who wrote Viennese waltzes, marches and polkas.  They probably think the same Strauss wrote the fanfare used in 2001: A Space Odyssey, but that was an unrelated Strauss. --  JackofOz (talk) 20:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * How well known is RVW outside the UK? Britain's commercial classical radio station, Classic FM, famously tried to restrict the amount of his works being played, much to the ire of the listeners and he regularly tops their annual popularity poll. However I remember a well known composer (can't remember who!) being interviewed, who had performed an RVW piece with an Austrian orchestra. They thought it was very good and wondered if he had written anything else! Alansplodge.

Has anyone mentioned Mozart's Ronda alla turca? That would be as well known as Eine kleine Nachtmusik. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also his Musical Joke, which in the UK is (or was) familiar as the theme music for the 'Horse of the Year Show". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:33, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Value of diamonds
Just reading about the latest diamond discovery, I wondered what the relationship between size and value is for a high-end diamond? Is it strictly linear as the carats go up, or more exponential? Vranak (talk) 03:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The process that forms a diamond happens only in very rare circumstances, and typically the natural materials required are found only in small amounts. That means that larger diamonds are uncovered less often than smaller ones. Thus, large diamonds are rare and have a greater value per carat. For that reason, the price of a diamond rises exponentionaly to its size.
 * Here's a paper that should reveal the answer. It would cost me 34 dollars to read it, though. Mac Davis (talk) 03:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a copy. Tell me when you've successfully downloaded the file so I can remove it from public view.--droptone (talk) 04:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Vranak (talk) 14:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * :( After reading through the paper I don't think that is what you want.Mac Davis (talk) 17:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I just wanted the answer, linear or exponential. Vranak (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * All else being equal a larger diamond is exponentially more valuable then a smaller diamond. Of course, this is for cut, gem diamonds.  There are other factors then size to consider.  For example not all diamonds are the same color, and some colors are more desirable and thus priced accordingly.  Therefore, if you have a below average, brown diamond that is 2x larger then a perfect blue diamond, the blue diamond will very likely be the more valuable.  Googlemeister (talk) 18:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that "exponential" has a specific meaning and is not the only type of faster-than-linear increase. For example, if the price per carat varied as the square of the total weight, that would be one example of a relationship that was neither linear nor exponential, but in between. I have not read the cited paper and can't comment on the actual rate of increase, I'm just saying to be careful of your terminology. --Anonymous, 18:30 UTC, September 30, 2009.
 * Yeah I know. Arithmetic might be more accurate but perhaps doesn't have as much currency among laymen. Vranak (talk) 20:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Number of classroom hours per year by students in various countries
I've tried Googling various combinations of "classroom hours," students, "per country," "per nation," and all sorts of variations, and have yet to find a table that discusses it; closest I found were lists (I think UNESCO) that had number of years of school required per country, and then number of weeks through the year. Can anyone help, please? What I'm trying to find it a list, per country, of how many hours children spend in the classroom (per week could hve worked too, I suppose). Thanks in advance.4.68.248.130 (talk) 12:10, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Try OECD for member countries. They have good statistics. One problem I can foresee is that the number of weekly hours may vary according to the children's ages. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks, it does look promising.4.68.248.130 (talk) 13:00, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * According to Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers: The Story of Success, "The school year in the United States is, on average, 180 days long. The South Korean school year is 220 days long. The Japanese school year is 243 days long." (pg. 260) Mac Davis (talk) 17:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That doesn't give hours within the day, though, which is more of a logical measure, since 5 hours at 200 days would be less than 6 at 180.4.68.248.130 (talk) 14:09, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

DNA Testing of "Hitler's" Blood on Sofa & Remaining Relatives
Has the blood on the sofa taken from Hitler's bunker (mentioned in this BBC article been subjected to any DNA tests to prove that it is in fact his? I understand that DNA testing was not around in 1945, but I am sure it would not be hard to track down relatives of his (in fact, I am surprised that this has not been done before - or has it?). It is known he had a half-brother (apparently married to an Irish lady and living in Liverpool, UK, before WW1) and a half-sister (who stayed in Austria). As they and Hitler would have shared one parent, surely there would be a DNA match, even between the half-sister's and brother's grandchildren's DNA and the blood on the sofa, were it to be indeed that of Hitler. In the article mentioned above, it is mentioned that the skull fragment in the same collection at the museum in Moscow has been DNA tested (revealing it to not be Hitler's), so has the sofa been tested? --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 13:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There are indeed male-line relatives who could provide the DNA living in America (see William Patrick Hitler), suitable for y-chromosomal testing, but they do not want to do so. - Nunh-huh 13:20, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And as an interesting side note, our article says that William Hitler had a job analyzing blood samples. Dismas |(talk) 16:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There was a wartime newspaper headline about William Hitler which was calculated to get attention: "Hitler joins U.S. Navy; sworn in by Goering." For some reason, he later changed his last name. Edison (talk) 19:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's in our article; the other guy's name was Hess, apparently. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe he ran into a Hess but was sworn in by a Goering per the headline. Edison (talk) 05:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's also quite interesting that his choice of middle name for his son was 'Adolf', considering he hated his uncle (as implied in that article). Even though this was probably after his change of surname, it's still interesting that he should choose his uncle's name (I know Adolf is/was a common-ish name in Germanic countries, unlike in English where it generally tends to bring to mind one specific historical character, but even so...). --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 10:19, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Help with an author?
I'm trying to recall the name of an author, I believe of Indian ethnicity - he wrote a book on airports, possibly a travel book, to be more general. Very 21st Century, postmodern, and there was a pervasive feel of being untethered, of not having a geographic home to speak of. Waxed lyrical about airport lounges or something of the sort. I think the book I read had a front cover with streaks of yellow in it.

Thanks. AlmostCrimes (talk) 16:59, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Was it fiction or nonfiction? If it was non-fiction, then it might have been Mehran Karimi Nasseri.  Intelligent  sium  22:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Pico Iyer, perhaps? Rhinoracer (talk) 09:40, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Perfect. Thank you. AlmostCrimes (talk) 15:48, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Law that prevents Military personnel from acting as domestic police officers
This has been bugging me for a while. Is there a law that says the president cannot deploy troops on domestic soil? If so, what is this law?

Thanks! sohmc (talk) 17:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * See Posse Comitatus Act. PhGustaf (talk) 17:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I knew it existed! sohmc (talk) 17:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He can deploy troops, as Eisenhower sent the 101st Airborne Division in 1957 to help nine black students get past rioting segregationists and enter the Little Rock High School in compliance the the 1955 Supreme Court desegregation order. But the troops did not act as police: they did not arrest the rioting segregationists and take them to jail, or before a judge for arraignment. The federal troops were at the school from September through November 1957, when they were replaced by U.S Marshal l s. Marshal l s were used several times in the civil rights struggles, but there was not a huge force of marshalls standing by in barracks for deployment, as there were troops, so marshal l s had to be pulled from courthouse guard duty or investigations, or from federal prison guards. Edison (talk) 19:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Law enforcement is by Federal marshals, one "l".--DThomsen8 (talk) 19:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not that into silent letters, double or single "l's" or such oddities of English orthography. Edison (talk) 05:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

African Flag Portraying Decapitation
I once saw a Wikipedia article about a flag that I can't seem to find again. The flag was either red or orange, and on the flag were two standing people, both solid black , and one was decapitating the other with a sword. The flag was from central or eastern Africa, either of a tribe or country, and it was from the 18th or 19th century. The article's name was in the form of "Flag of ...". I tried Gallery of flags by design, Flags with humans, and Flags of Africa but it wasn't there. Does anyone know which flag it was? --Codell Talk 17:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found it: Benin Empire.--Codell Talk 18:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * How bizarre. And it looks suspiciously like this James Thurber cartoon: →Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I would dearly love to know the story behind that choice of design. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just the flag for mysophobes: "I don't do handshakes." Clarityfiend (talk) 21:40, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Not to quibble with a cool flag, but are we really sure that's accurate? I wasn't really able to find ample non-Wiki references to that. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * According to http://www.greatbenin.org/ (scroll down) it is the "national military flag" (emphasis mine), so it might not be the actual national flag. I don't know how reliable that site it (it's seriously broken, which isn't a good sign). --Tango (talk) 01:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd love to see that strung up with all the other flags in those street parties we used to have years ago (the Silver Jubilee, the Royal Wedding, etc.) or as one of the flags in the UN! --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 10:11, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Letter Z and Native Americans
I need a word that begins with the letter Z and relates to Puget Sound Native Americans. This is for a school project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.157.78.146 (talk) 19:34, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * A word in English, or in one of the Salishan languages, or some other language of the area? Adam Bishop (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Please note that we will not do your homework for you.  Intelligent  sium  22:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * At least the OP's being honest here, and it's not a massively hard and convoluted exercise like an essay question or something. Having said that, I did some googling and found nothing at all helpful. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 10:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Ukranian composer
I am looking for some pre 1900's music with a composer from Ukraine. Any suggestions? Googlemeister (talk) 19:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Does List of Ukrainian composers help? --  JackofOz (talk) 20:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Tactical bombing during world war ii
How effective was bombing tanks during world war ii? What size bomb would it normally take to knock out a tank? Were most tanks destroyed from the air destroyed by level bombers such as the A20 havoc or diving ones such as Hurricane Mk 2c? 22:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.179.95 (talk)


 * Ground-attack aircraft touches on this in the History section but the attack methods are only briefly mentioned. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If you look around in various tank articles, you'll see that most German tanks were knocked out by ground-attack aircraft; further, the main weapons used for this were 20mm and 30mm cannon. Tanks have thin top and bottom armor because it's hard for another tank or an anti-tank gun to hit those spots, but this also leaves them very vulnerable to aircraft attack. --Carnildo (talk) 22:38, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hans-Ulrich Rudel claimed to have destroyed 519 tanks, mostly(?) with his Ju 87G Stuka's two 37 mm cannons. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I haven't heard of any western allied aircraft with armour piercing cannons. I know the Russians and Germans had them, but what allied planes had them? How much armour would AP rounds from a 20mm hispano cannon penetrate? And again, what size bomb would nromaly be needed to take out a tank?--92.251.138.156 (talk) 15:34, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You don't need an armor-piercing cannon: the Panzer IV, Germany's workhorse tank, only had 10mm of top armor, which won't reliably stop a .50 BMG round, much less an explosive shell.


 * Bomb size is very strongly dependant on where you hit: a one-pound bomb on the top of the tank is enough, a ten-pound bomb in contact with the side armor might cause enough spalling to knock out the tank, while a 500-pound bomb 20 feet away might kill the tank crew through concussion while leaving the tank itself fully functional. --Carnildo (talk) 01:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The "Rocket Projectile" RP-3 was the main British air to ground anti-armour weapon. Alansplodge, 1 October 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alansplodge (talk • contribs) 23:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Was divebombng, as by Stukas, highly effective against tanks in early WW2, before forces realized that the divebombers were easy to shoot down? Edison (talk) 04:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, it appears to be something of a mixed bag. Stukas were basically the only divebombers operating against tanks on a regular basis in early WW2.  Our article notes that they were highly effective against ships during the period, but as they were generally carrying a single bomb, bombing wouldn't seem the most efficient use of an anti-tank sortie.  Specifically, we note that on the Russian front, tanks were only accounting for 5-10% of Stuka vehicle kills in the early part of the campaign.  In the Stalingrad section, we note that T-34s were generally impervious to Stuka attack barring a direct hit, while pre-war models remained vulnerable.  Finally, we note that the Stuka's adoption of the above 37mm cannon in 1943 is what boosted its value as an anti-tank platform.  Prior to this armament change, it mounted only 8mm machine guns. &mdash; Lomn 15:40, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Following up, the above article on Hans-Ulrich Rudel appears to back this up. He claimed ~100 tank kills during the Kursk campaign with the new cannon-equipped G-model Stuka.  In March 1944 (~6 months after Kursk), he claimed 200 total tank kills.  He began combat operations in Stukas in 1941, but it seems clear to me that tanks weren't relevant targets until the cannon-equipped Stuka appeared. &mdash; Lomn 15:45, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Would 50 caliber machine guns in a strafing run destroy a WW2 tank? Were tank cannons effective against aircraft, or was the coaxial machinegun on some tanks, or only the machinegun on top by the hatch, which would require the man operating it to be fully exposed to the strafing? Edison (talk) 17:55, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A tank would be unlikely be truly destroyed by .50 caliber strafing. The rounds have a reasonable chance at penetrating the top armor if the bullet hits perpendicular to the armor, but the further from that you get, the more armor you need to penetrate.  The more armor you need to get through, the more energy the bullet loses.  Any of the guns on the tank could kill an aircraft if it scored a hit.  The bad news for the tank is that the aircraft is a fairly small, fast target, and the main tank gun would not be able to change direction to match it.  Googlemeister (talk) 18:14, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Apparently not. This site looks to be an excellent resource.  It documents the arms race between Soviet and German attack aircraft (going up to 75mm cannon) and discusses the western Allies' rocket-based approach.  British studies noted that of over 200 Panther tank kills from Normandy to the Ardennes, only 14 could be definitely attributed to aircraft, and 11 of those were due to air-to-ground rockets.  As for tanks defending against aircraft, the main cannon would be a non-starter.  They simply wouldn't elevate high enough (18° on a Panther) to threaten most aircraft, the sights weren't built for such targets, there weren't proximity fuses as on anti-aircraft platforms, the rate of fire was lousy... sure, you could get a one in a million shot, but that'd be about it.  The machine guns (especially the top-mounted one, which avoids the elevation limit of the coaxial MG) would have been reasonably effective. &mdash; Lomn 19:35, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I imagine it would be nigh on impossible to hit an aircraft that was doing anything but diving straight at you with the main gun. If they are flying straight at you in order to strafe well a much easier dshot if the gun goes high enough.