Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 September 7

= September 7 =

song lyrics
I'm having difficulty finding the lyrics to some songs, and who wrote them. These are the songs;

Forward with the NOAA, U.S. Public Health Service March, Way Up There, WASP Hymn, and Song for the Unsung, the Men of the Merchant Marine.

"Forward with the NOAA" is the march song of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. "U.S. Public Health Service March" was written for the United States Public Health Service. "Way Up There" is the march song of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. "WASP Hymn" is a hymn specifically written for the Women Airforce Service Pilots. "Song for the Unsung, the Men of the Merchant Marine" is a hymn specifically written for the United States Merchant Marine.

Although I did find out who wrote "Flying Tigers in the China Sky", I'm having difficulty finding the lyrics to that song. Did the Black Sheep Squadron adopt "The Whiffenpoof Song"?69.203.157.50 (talk) 00:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You can hear "Way Up There" here. --Cam (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Also I found lyrics to "Way Up There" here. --Cam (talk) 01:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Here are a couple more. (Found by searching the official websites for these organizations for the song titles.)
 * (1) The NOAA Corps Song: "Bud Arberg... readily volunteered to write a song.... The music was arranged by MSgt Jari Villanueva of the USAF Band. The words are as follows:"
 * (2) "AUDIO: Way Up There. The song, commissioned by NASA to celebrate the Centennial of Flight, was written by Tena R. Clark"
 * (3) Frequently Asked Questions about the Merchant Marine: "The official song of the U.S. Maritime Service and U.S. Merchant Marine is "Heave Ho, My Lads!" There is also a "Maritime Hymn" composed in 1943 by Buddy Clarke and Ruby Melnik, and a "Song for the Unsung, The Men of the Merchant Marine" by Fred Waring and Jack Dolph
 * Best, WikiJedits (talk) 02:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Why does NOAA even have a marching song? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I still can't find the lyrics to "Flying Tigers in the China Sky", "U.S. Public Health Service March", "WASP Hymn", and "Song for the Unsung, the Men of the Merchant Marine". What are the lyrics to "Maritime Hymn"? Will someone please tell me if the Black Sheep Squadron adopted "The Whiffenpoof Song"? Thank you.69.203.157.50 (talk) 04:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You could contact the respective organizations, if googling isn't working for you. They all seem to have archivists/historians/librarians. See:
 * * U.S. Public Health Service inquiries (or )
 * * Women Airforce Service Pilots Museum contact
 * * United States Merchant Marine Academy Library contact
 * * Black Sheep Squadron (VMA-214) at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma
 * * Sino-American Aviation Heritage Foundation or American Volunteer Group. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I tried the USMC air station in Yuma. But it's a secure site. They have information on the Black Sheep Squadron. But there wasn't any information if the group adopted "The Whiffenpoof Song" or not. I'd still like to figure that out.69.203.157.50 (talk) 22:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

August 1727
In the Doctor Who episode "The Girl in the Fireplace", the girl, a young Madame de Pompadour, says that she is in France and that it is currently the year 1727. The Doctor responds with something like "Good year. Except for August.  Stay indoors then." I've looked through the 1727 article and didn't see anything significant for France in that month. So what was being referred to here? Why should she stay indoors? She wouldn't develop tuberculosis for years, so it can't be that... Dismas |(talk) 05:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe because it's hot as hell in August. I think this may be one of those examples of classic British wit that no one gets, even the British... -- Jayron  32  05:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The ONLY thing I can find is that her future beau, Louis XV of France, would father his first children in August, 1727 (or rather, his wife Marie Leszczyńska would give birth to them), twin daughters Louise Elisabeth and Anne Henriette. According to Anne Hennriette's article, she and other siblings conflicted frequently with Mme. de Pompadour, oddly Louise Elisabeth was apparently a close confidant of Mme. de Pompadour, which was something of a source of tension.  Still, I find it hard to believe that the birth of the sisters is the event that Dr. Who was refering to, I think the much more oblique reference to August being a hot month, and thus a good time to spend it inside, is a better guess.  -- Jayron  32  06:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps without intending any specific key event the statement simply reinforced the Doctor's range of familiarity with times and spaces as a Time Lord.--Wetman (talk) 06:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This question has been asked so many times that when you type "august 1" into Google, it will suggest "August 1727". Perhaps the subject merits a mention in our article. There is this book, according to which (page 306) the summer of 1727 was hot in Paris, with afternoon temperatures reaching 35°C by mid-August and remaining high through September (25°C is the average high in Paris in August today). So that could be it, or then the screenwriter just pulled it out of his hat and the heat wave is a coincidence. On the other hand, there was also the Moravian revival, maybe the Doctor knew it was caused by some kind of nasty cosmic radiation event. (By the way, what would one use for tin foil in 1727?)--Rallette (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you folks are behind on your superstitions. August is the Dog Days, which was generally considered a bad and unhealthy time of year. Everybody "knew" that back then! It's an idea shared in most European cultures. The warm, humid weather was evil - causing things to rot and go sour. --Pykk (talk) 18:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you all for your answers! Dismas |(talk) 00:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

People's Crusade...?
In the People's Crusade where did they start from and what were they aiming to reach and once they reached there what was going to take place. In other words were did they start from and what were their intensions. nb: When refering to they i mean Peter the hermit and his peasants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.83.26 (talk) 10:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Step One: Tell us what you're talking about, since you didn't link to anything. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The People's Crusade, presumably. Algebraist 11:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And presumably that article should answer the questions? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Which it does, and Peter the Hermit appears to be the archetype of "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." That is, he fled before the battle began. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:17, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That article is alright, but the People's Crusade section in the First Crusade article might be more informative; a bunch of us were updating the First Crusade series of articles but I'm not sure if we ever fixed that one. Anyway, short answer, the People's Crusade originated the same way as the rest of the First Crusade - Pope Urban II started to organize an "armed pilgrimage" to help the Byzantine Empire against the Turks, and to recapture Jerusalem from the Turks, and other preachers spread his message. Peter the Hermit was one of those preachers, and was so successful in northern France (Peter was from Amiens) that actually up until relatively recently historians thought it was all Peter's idea to begin with. The "People's Crusade", or the "peasants' crusade", is not quite accurate; the Pope wanted well-armed soldiers, not a mass movement of regular people. There were certainly unarmed peasants, women, old men, etc, along with Peter, but also many knights, notably Walter Sans Avoir, and the other popular movements in Germany were led by people like Emich of Leiningen. They were supposed to wait for the main body of crusaders, who left in August of 1096, but instead they left in the spring, and started attacking Jews in Germany and other Christians in Hungary and the Byzantine Empire; sometimes this is assumed to have happened because they were illiterate peasants who had no idea where they were going and thought every city they reached must be Jerusalem, but that's not true, they knew exactly where they were going. They were just poorly-supplied and wanted food, but Hungarian and Byzantine authorities were trying to deal with moving them along as quickly as possible and they frequently conflicted because of it. Once they got to Constantinople, the Byzantine emperor, who had requested help but not that kind of help (he assumed he would get a much smaller number of mercenary knights), didn't really know what to do with them, so he sent them across into Turkish territory where they were mostly slaughtered. The survivors, like Peter the Hermit, joined the main crusaders when they arrived a few months later. Had Peter and his army actually made it to Jerusalem, and by some miracle they had actually captured it, they probably thought it would have instigated the Second Coming; now that I am thinking about it I can't actually remember what Peter thought was supposed to happen, but since he believed (or later legends said that he believed) he had a letter from Christ himself, he probably did think Christ would return. I'll have to look this up. But in more practical terms, I doubt they were thinking very far ahead after crossing into Turkish Anatolia, when they were rather desperately trying to survive. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A letter from Jesus, I suppose personally autographed as "Jesus H. Christ" or some such. This shows the fine line that can exist between leadership and lunacy. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and one group on the people's crusade was supposedly being led by a duck (or goose) that they thought was infused with the Holy Spirit. Anyway, I can't find anything more about what Peter thought he was going to accomplish, aside from the vague notion that by showing up in Jerusalem they would convert all the Muslims and restore Christian rule to the Holy Land. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * By the way, there is a relatively recent book about Peter the Hermit by Jean Flori, which would likely be useful here. (It's in French, though.) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

shakabuku
In the film Grosse Pointe Blank, Minnie Driver makes reference to shakabuku, and calls it a "spiritual kick to the head". Having lived here in Japan for a year and a half, it sounds Japanese to my ear, but my friends are unfamiliar with the term. "Shaka" is an old Japanese term for Buddhism, but the rest... help? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I found this on shakubuku.
 * "Shaku is the action of an ax in a hand. It means to cut, to break, to burst (Wieger). To snap, to decide, to compound, to fold, to subdue evil and receive good. (Soothill)."
 * "Buku is a person imitating a dog — i.e. being subservient or lowly. It means to crouch, to prostrate oneself, to hide, to humble (Wieger). To prostrate, humble, suffer, bear, ambush, dog-days, under control, e.g. as delusion (Soothill)"
 * ---Sluzzelin talk  17:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You're quite welcome. May I point out that I understand none of the languages or writing systems involved and merely copied what I found. If you want more and more informed replies, you might consider moving this question to the Language Desk where several knowledgable editors regularly answer questions about the Japanese language and writing systems. ---Sluzzelin talk  17:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * To look up the Chinese characters given on that page, go here: 折http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=6298 and 伏 http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=4F0F ; there also seems to be a Japanese Wikipedia article ja:折伏... -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Or, indeed, 折伏. I would treat the folk etymology in the first set of links with caution, however. They are derived purely from the shape of the characters - "hand" + "axe" and "person" + "dog". These etymological origins of the individual characters have only an indirect bearing on the meaning of the phrase.
 * The more immediate meaning that comes to the term is that 折 means "fold" and 伏 means "to prostrate". The two combined means to "[make somebody] submit wholeheartedly", and has a technical meaning in Buddhism. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Axe and hoe songs
There's a Polish folk song that originated in Nazi-occupied Warsaw, beginning with words siekiera, motyka..., literally: "axe, hoe..." Out of curiosity, I googled the English words "axe, hoe, song" and found two websites about songs sung by black prisoners in the U.S. South that use the phrase "axe and hoe songs":. Are these axe and hoe songs an established musical genre? Does anyone know anything more about them? In the Polish song, the enumeration of everyday items serves no other purpose than providing rhyme to the following verse, but still, could there possibly be a connection? — Kpalion(talk) 17:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My brother and I were very young when we first heard that song so we'd make up our own lyrics for laughs. We migrated to Australia soon after that and have lived here most of our lives, but some of the made up lyrics still stick in our minds and we still crack each other up every once in a while by singing them out: siekiera motyka kurwa fajka and siekera motyka huj ananas. Still makes me laugh, you probably had to be there. Apologies if you take offence at the Polish swear words. ;) . Vespine (talk) 04:35, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it made me snort. Have you ever tried to come up with English lyrics for the song? — Kpalion(talk) 00:44, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * We used to translate some songs, like the Franek Kimono stuff. But the axe hoe song I think was just too ridiculous to translate. One of my fav Franek lines to this date is "In life I have just one dream, to increase attack and sustain. I'd love to make such a racket on the bass that it would knock everyone of their feet!" Most of the time we decided not to try to translate the rhymes, too difficult.. Do you know Franek Kimono, it's brilliant stuff. Vespine (talk) 06:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Are these repetitive songs structured to compliment monotonous labor? If they are, John Henry’s Hammer might be an example. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, indeed there are. See Work song and Sea shanty for starters. (By the way, the word is "complement", to accompany, to go with.) BrainyBabe (talk) 16:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting to know that Americans had their Stakhanovites too. And coming back to "axe and hoe songs", would you say it's a synonym of a work song? Or a subgenre of it?
 * As for the Polish song, it's not so much about hard labor as it is about making fun of "the stupid painter". The "axe, hoe" here is more like the first part of a rhyme in Cockney slang – it doesn't really mean anything. I was wondering, if you could translate the title Siekiera, motyka as "Axe and Hoe" (sounds much better than the literal "Axe, Hoe") without giving the false impression that the song is about hard work? To what extent is it a fixed, idiomatic expression in English? — Kpalion(talk) 00:44, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "Ax(e) hoe song" is new to me. I didn't find a single reference to the term at Mudcat, a resource for lyrics, discussions, and so on related to folk song. --- OtherDave (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Municipal recycling in the UK - profits?
Are there any figures available for local councils in the UK on the amount of money they make (or lose) via the collecting and selling of recyclable plastics, metals etc from households in their region? Nanonic (talk) 21:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't have figures, but I did see a TV report a few months ago about how the price of recovered recycled material had collapsed, even for aluminium cans. It said that, as a result, many councils weren't sending their recycling to recycling plants, but instead were stockpiling it at places like disused airfields, waiting (hoping) for prices to recover. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 21:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of any figures. Local authorities have individual contracts with recycling businesses, and I doubt they would release related financial information. Dalliance (talk) 23:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There are certainly no profits to be made. My local council (Birmingham) reluctantly admits that they transport mixed recycled waste 100 miles by road to the nearest recycling plant that can handle it. It's all about hitting government targets.--Shantavira|feed me 08:19, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Addison Whithecomb Debate Quote Origination
Who is, or was, Addison Whithecomb? and did he really say "When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate." (Addison Whithecomb).

A google search will bring up lots of sites, even formal debate sites and reference sites, which quote an Addison Whithecomb as having said this, but no sites seem to mention anything about the man himself, or even that he existed.

What or who is the origination of that much quoted saying, especially as it is so often quoted without any background or verification!

Thank You A Debate CoachLadyofMcCamley (talk) 23:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Very interesting! This person does not seem to exist on the Internet outside of that quote. Even the spelling of the last name seems very rare; I can only find a trace of one other modern Whithecomb, that is J. Whithecomb, who wrote a 1997 paper on violence in children and apparently has no mention on the Web other than in citations to that article.--Cam (talk) 02:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, that "J. Whithecomb" appears to be a common misspelling of the name of Julie L. Withecomb. So the elusive Addison remains the only true Whithecomb on the Web. --Cam (talk) 03:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No offense to the wise Addison Whithecomb, but he didn't invent the idea of the ad hominem fallacy, and I'm not entirely sure that's even the best quote describing it (though it's pretty good). I'd say that the idea is widespread for many reasons, most of them having little to do with Addison.  Jwrosenzweig (talk) 04:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Completely true, Addison Whithecomb, did not originate the idea of an ad hominem attack, although his quote does explain it in easy terms, which apparently is why the quote is so popular. I'm more interested in how his quote has risen to the status of being quoted by so many debate clubs and resource sites, with apparent "authority" with little (actually none that I can find) evidence that the man ever existed or why we should care HE said it. I'm using it as an object lesson to the class on how to evaluate evidence and authoritative quotes. Something sounds so good it is repeated everywhere until it takes on the appearance of valid evidence (quote) but that does not mean it is a credible source as it is unverifiable. Everyone assumes someone else must have verified it, so they keep using it. I find it fascinating that this quote creeps into so many debate sites and reference sites that should be concerned with validating their sources since that is what they are attempting to teach their students. Anywho...I figured if anyone should know who Addison Whithecomb was or is, or how this quote ever got to be so prominent, and if there be any verification for it, the Wikipedia crew could unearth it. Thanks LadyofMcCamley (talk) 01:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * After some searching in the usual (non-Google) places, I'm thinking "Whithecomb" is one of those internet mirages. If anyone has evidence of a real person writing that phrase (with citations), I'd be glad to hear about it. Weepy.Moyer (talk) 01:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The earliest reference I can find to this quote is from February 1, 2001, on a site called ThinkExist. http://thinkexist.com/quotation/when_you_resort_to_attacking_the_messenger_and/221269.html