Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 April 2

= April 2 =

Virginity-Backed Security
Can a borrower put up their virginity as collateral for a loan, provided that the lender assesses the borrower's virginity to be equal in value to the loan, in the United States? Would such an agreement hold any stature in a United States court? 76.110.192.228 (talk) 02:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That might work if the woman was betrothed to the King of England. Otherwise, to give you a hint of how it might turn out, some young actress once tried to insure her virginity with Lloyd's of London for a million dollars or some such. They denied the application on the grounds that "the risk is too great". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * (Disclaimer: I'm still feeling in an April Fools mood, so I'm allowed to be a little flippant.) I'm afraid those gels hoping to become affianced to a King of England have missed their chance by quite a long way. The last time there was a spouseless King of England was when Mary II died in 1694, leaving her co-monarch William III to rule alone until his death in 1702.   He could have married again, but there was something about Mary that nobody else could match.  And five years after his death, the Kingdom of England ceased to be.  :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   04:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes indeed, there really was Something about Mary -- Brangifer (talk) 05:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You don't say. :) --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   07:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

In a word-or rather, an acronym-, LOL.

In a world where both parties assented to this ridiculous deal, would it even be legal under United States law? 76.110.192.228 (talk) 03:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Uh, I really don't think so. Generally the Supreme Court finds in favour of common decency. It wouldn't be very Supreme if it didn't. Vranak (talk) 03:59, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Paul Whiteman, early 20th century bandleader, insured his signature mustache. Surely a hymen could be insured. If it could be insured, why couldn't it be collateralized? Edison (talk) 04:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

So I guess virgin tampon wearers would be out of luck? 24.189.90.68 (talk) 07:20, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The phrase moral repugnance springs to mind. Vranak (talk) 04:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Is there a statutory or common-law precedent that prohibits pledging one's virginity as collateral? 76.110.192.228 (talk) 04:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't see any reason why you couldn't have a contract involving virginity, but it would need to precisely define virginity and define how they are going to determine whether the person is a virgin or not. I'm not sure I understand the contract you are describing though - are you saying the lender would have the right to deflower the virgin should she default on the loan? If so, that would be prostitution (the virginity part is irrelevant) and there are lots of laws about that. It would also be a very foolish agreement on the part of the lender, since there is no way to ensure the virginity will still exist when the loan is defaulted on. You can be fairly sure someone isn't going to knock down their house and then refuse to pay their mortgage. You can't be at all sure someone won't lose their virginity during the term of the loan. --Tango (talk) 14:05, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I suppose you could always pledge cherry futures as collateral. :-) StuRat (talk) 14:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

While not the same thing, in historic cases where a bride price is paid, this may occur under the presumption the prospective bride is a virgin and I presume if it's later found they are not, the marriage or betrothal may be void and the bride price may need to be paid back. If mahr is paid before the wedding night, I presume something similar may have occured if it's later found the bride is not a virgin. Incidentally, I came across which I'm pretty sure is a hoax (one of their other sites ) and also not quite the same thing. I also came across which I've heard of before and this Italian movie which I haven't. Nil Einne (talk) 14:59, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * There is the dower or "morning gift", which "derives from the Germanic practice of the bridegroom's officially granting the gift on the morning after the wedding night; making such a settlement was evidence that the marriage had been consummated and the bride had proven to be a virgin." BrainyBabe (talk) 15:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

It is my understanding that immoral contracts are not enforceable. (Which is why prostitutes insist on advance payment, for example.) So the virgin could not be forced to give up her virginity, and any contract demanding that would be void. However I am not a lawyer. Also, the virgin may not be aware that the contract is not enforceable. 195.35.160.133 (talk) 11:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC) Martin.


 * Illegal contracts (those which require an illegal act to complete) are not enforceable. However, many acts most consider to be immoral are legal, like adultery. StuRat (talk) 11:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Destroyed and rewritten manuscript?
Who was the author who labored a long time over writing a book, then lent his only copy to a friend. His friend's maid accidentally burned the manuscript. So the author rewrote the book from scratch, and it became really famous? -- noosph e re 03:16, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hadley Hemingway lost a suitcase with all of Ernest Hemingway's early manuscripts. Could that be what you are thinking of? It is not that uncommon for some manuscript to be lost and rewritten. (Happens all the time to me while editing Wikipedia). Edison (talk) 04:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope. Wasn't him.  Sorry.  -- noosph e re 04:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * John Stewart Mill’s housemaid accidentally burned the only manuscript of Thomas Carlyle’s history of the French Revolution.--Wetman (talk) 04:13, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's who I was thinking of. Thanks!  -- noosph e re 04:17, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * T E Lawrence managed to lose his original manuscript twice whilst writing about the war and had to redo all his work for a third time before it was safely published. could that be it? 80.47.135.51 (talk) 10:25, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently not. 80.47.135.51 (talk) 10:27, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In fiction, Blackadder the Third accidently burns Dr Johnson's manuscript for the first ever dictionary. It was actually published in 1755, seven years before Prince George was born; but hey - it made a good story. Alansplodge (talk) 12:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

best health inssurance for preexistent nose trauma/need of reconstruction
hi guys, I'm just wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction, I'm searching for an inssurance that would cover a reconstructive rhinoplasty with a doctor of my choice...for example dr. Dean toriumi. (my current choice). I am aware that health inssurance policies exclude people with preexistent conditions but there must be at least one out there that takes this cases even if it is super expensive, I'd like to take a look at it since it might help.


 * The Reference desk can't make a recommendation like that.--Wetman (talk) 04:10, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * US health insurance is really weird, so such a policy may exist, but under normal circumstances you can't insure against something certain to happen. Roughly speaking, to calculate an insurance premium you multiply the probability of claiming by the amount of the possible claim and then add a profit margin. If the probability is 1 (ie. certain) then the premium would be more than the cost of just paying for the surgery yourself. --Tango (talk) 14:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Except that an insurance company can exert pressure on health care providers to charge a lower fee, while individuals get soaked by health care providers, to subsidize the insurance company's low rates. StuRat (talk) 14:30, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You should talk with an "insurance broker". They are supposed to be informed about these things.  Be aware they are sales people and get commissions when you purchase insurance, and they have no fiduciary duty to guard your best interests.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 14:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Emigrate to the UK. As long as the procedure isn't purely cosmetic the NHS will perform the procedure for free. However you don't get to choose your surgeon. Alternativey if it's a purely cosmetic procedure various countries have much cheaper plastic surgeons than the USA. Exxolon (talk) 16:25, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Or emigrate to Australia. You will be able to purchase private health insurance that covers you for any pre-existing condition, subject to a waiting period of 12 months.  After that, the companies cannot deny benefits just because the condition was pre-existing when you commenced the policy.   And you get the doctor of your choice.  But if it's a purely cosmetic procedure (and you have to read their definitions of "cosmetic" to be sure), most insurance companies won't cover you at all, ever.  You might be able to have it done for free, under Medicare, but like the NHS in the UK, there's no choice of doctor.  And Medicare might exclude cosmetic procedures, too.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

When did the majority of the US South convert from Episcopalianism to Baptists?
When did the majority of the US South convert from Episcopalianism to Baptists? --Gary123 (talk) 09:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The colonial South had large populations of Protestant Hugenots, Scot-Irish Presbyterians, Bohemian Moravians, Quakers, etc. Rmhermen (talk) 13:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It depends on what the OP means by "Baptist". According to Southern Baptist Convention, the convention was created in 1845, when it split from the American Baptist Convention (known since that time as "Northen Baptists") though the SBC has a significant presence in the north, and the ABCUSA has a significant presence in the south, especially among African American communities.  Martin Luther King, Jr. received his theology doctorate at the Methodist-affiliated Boston University School of Theology, but practiced at an American Baptist-affiliated church in Alabama.  Many American protestant churches are not exclusive by denomination, it is not uncommon for people to move between, say, Methodist and Baptist churches.  I have known ministers who have moved between Methodist and Baptist churches.  The article Baptists in the United States contains a summary of the organization of Baptist churches across america.  Nailing down the Baptist denomination is difficult to do because of the way it is organized.  As the minister who married me and my wife told us "Remember to tell people you were married in a Baptist church.  There is no "The Baptist Church".  The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest Baptist group in the south, but they only represent a plurality (not a majority) of baptists in the South, and even less so of the U.S.  As to answer the specific question, it would be hard to say.  I'm not sure there was a massive conversion of individual churces, as there was in New England when hundreds of former Congregationalist churches converted, en masse, to Unitarianism.  Since the Baptist theology stresses Evangalism and individual salvation, it may be more likely that the growth of the Baptist denomination happened slowly and organically, such that it would be hard to nail down when it became the dominant group in the South.  They were certainly a strong presence in the Colonies; during the revolution Baptists was strongly and publicly praised by many revolutionary leaders, such as Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the famous Letter to the Danbury Baptists -- Jayron  32  15:19, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * According to the Encyclopedia of religion in the South, the Anglican (Episcopal) Church had ceased to be the majority denomination by the 1790s. Before the American Revolution, the Anglican Church was the official established church in the south, of course. After guys like Jefferson and Madison helped bring about religious liberty through disestablishment in the 1780s, other denominations, already on the rise, really thrived. Methodists and Baptists led the way, followed by Presbyterians and then Episcopalians. Non-Anglican Christians of the time celebrated Jefferson as their champion, since separation of church and state got the government off their backs and allowed them to grow. —Kevin Myers 16:07, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe not entirely relevant, but a branch of my family emigrated from England to Australia early in the 20th Century, and by some unknown process changed from Anglicans to Baptists. I suppose that they just went to the church that was available. Perhaps the Baptists were keener on getting into remote rural communities. A sort of laid-back lack of enthusiasm is one of Anglicanism's virtues. Alansplodge (talk) 17:04, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Those colonial Virginian Episcopalians were pretty low church to start with: all-day preaching in those plain churches and no smoke and candles.--Wetman (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As others have said, the South has probably never had a Baptist majority (greater than 50%). That said, Baptism as a religious movement probably really gained momentum in the South during the First Great Awakening.  Marco polo (talk) 20:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Quraysh religion
What religion were the Quraysh before Muhammad was born? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.9.119 (talk) 19:33, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The Meccans had polytheistic/animist beliefs, and, in particular, worshiped Hubal, along with some 360 other gods. See Hubal.  StuRat (talk) 19:47, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. What do you mean by worshiping this moon god "in particular"?  I know that some tribes had gods for their own tribes while also believing that other tribe's gods existed, so it was polytheistic but every group only had one god.  However, the article says that Hubal was a moon god, which makes me think of Greek and Roman religions, where every god had a portfolio.  Did the Qurafsh people ignore the god of agriculture or the god of war to focus on the moon god? .  Did they think that the moon god was the most powerful of the gods?  Or was it just that the moon god's temple was there and other gods' temples were elsewhere?  Sorry if my questions are stupid, but I'm confused.  --174.91.9.119 (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I get the impression that Hubal was like Zeus or Jupiter (god) in Greek and Roman polytheism. That is, he was the King of the Gods. StuRat (talk) 21:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I know nothing of the Quraysh or Hubal, but frequently in polytheistic religions people and towns have patron gods. The classic example is Athena for Athens. Even among the Athenians, Athena wasn't considered to be the most powerful god, or the leader of the gods, she was simply *their* god. Other city-states had their own patron gods (Artemis for Sparta, Helios for Rhodes, etc.) It's something like nationality itself. Someone from Belize knows that other countries exist, and knows that quite a few of them are more powerful economically/militarily, but they still may be patriotic to Belize, because it's their country. -- 174.31.194.126 (talk) 03:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Pre-Islamic Arabia, Ancient Semitic religion, and Arabian mythology may be useful places to start one's studies on this subject. -- Jayron  32  21:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A previous discussion is here. Alansplodge (talk) 00:11, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep in mind that in non-montheistic belief systems, there is no necessary dedication to particular 'gods'. For instance a tribe or city may have its patron god, but the relationship is more of a 'we like you and you like us' thing: the people would generally have no compunctions about appealing to other gods in particular contexts (e.g. paying tribute to another god if they visited another city or tribe, having family or clan gods, asking for assistance from different gods for particular things those gods were closely associated with).  Gods associated with prominent natural phenomena (the moon in arabic regions, the sun in egypt and mesopotamia, thunder in hebrew and mongolian beliefs) would probably be considered to be 'bigger' gods just because they are more pervasive, but bigger is not necessarily better in non-monotheistic understanding.  Note that both Moses and Mohammed both had a hell of a time getting their followers to forsake other gods and focus on one.  -- Ludwigs 2  18:20, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Branches of law
Is there an international standard for classifying laws (and therefore lawsuits), possibly with some laws being classified more than once where two or more branches intersect? -- Wavelength (talk) 23:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC) Wikipedia has Category:Law by issue and List of areas of law and Category:Case law by topic. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:33, 3 April 2010 (UTC)