Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 December 7

= December 7 =

Knighthoods, peerages, Bob Geldof et al
See my question here, unanswered since June.

Why is it that Bob Geldof can never properly be called Sir Bob unless he adopts UK citizenship, but he could theoretically be appointed a life peer of the UK House of Lords this afternoon and become Lord Geldof, without him having to take any special steps?

A peerage is usually said to outrank a knighthood, yet here we have a case where the lower title of “Sir” has a more stringent requirement than the higher title of “Lord”. Plus, being a life peer would enable him to take part in debates in the House of Lords and have an influence on the laws of the United Kingdom (a country of which he is not even a citizen), whereas he is disbarred from calling himself Sir at present, for the very reason that he is  not  a citizen.

I appreciate that knighthoods and peerages have their own separate histories and traditions, but thinking more generally in the overall context of the British Honours System, why do they take such a strong stance on such a relatively minor matter as a three-letter title for an honorary knight, but have no qualms about letting an alien potentially, in an extreme case, cause legislative chaos from within, which could, in an extreme case, be worse than an armed attack from without? --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   02:18, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The first half of the first statement of your last paragraph is the key to understanding this. Being a knight means being indoctrinated into one of the Orders of knighthood.  This is done by the Monarch.  Being a "Lord" means being granted a peerage, minimally a Barony.  This is also done by the Monarch.  However, these are two completely different things.  These are also complete irrespective of the Order of Precedence, which determines who outranks whom.  The Order of Precedence has limited applications, for example determining marching order in processions and that sort of thing.  -- Jayron  32  05:11, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As one example of your conundrum, by the way, Christopher Guest holds a barony (he's the 5th Baron Haden-Guest) though he is an American. Before the most recent Reform of the House of Lords he actually had the right to sit in and vote in the House of Lords, which he did; though he himself was a supporter of Lords reform.  Under the current system, only 91 hereditary peers may sit in lords (Baron Haden-Guest is no longer one of these), while only life peers who are citizens of the United Kingdom, Ireland, or the Commonwealth may sit.  I can only note that, yes, it is therefore possible for an Irish citizen may vote on laws which affect citizens of the UK, but which do not affect him.  It is what it is; whether it is just or fair isn't relevent, it just is what it is.  I should note that this is not the only paradox of British legislative practice.  See the West Lothian question for another: Scottish members of commons may vote on legislation which does not affect them, but there are issues related to Scotland which they may not vote on, because of devolution of certain powers to the Scottish parliament.  That is, he can vote on certain legislation which affects only England, of which he is NOT a citizen, but he may NOT vote on certain legislation which affects only Scotland, of which he IS a citizen.  Again, it is what it is.  Does it necessarily make sense?  Probably not, but that doesn't mean it isn't the way it works.  -- Jayron  32  05:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * How many life peers, today, cannot sit in the House of Lords? Sleigh (talk) 06:34, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not certain there ARE any. If the aforementioned Bob Geldof were granted a life peerage, he would be eligible to sit in Lords, given than he is an Irish citizen AND a tax-paying resident of the UK (which is also required of all who sit in Lords as life peers).  After perusing the various List of life peerages, the only non-UK resident I can positively identify is Richard Casey, Baron Casey, who was elevated long before the most recent Lords Reforms, and so may have been allowed to sit in Lords despite being a resident of Australia.  Under the current List of living life peers I can't identify any that do not also qualify to sit in Lords.  Maurice Saatchi, Baron Saatchi was born in Iraq, but appears to qualify as a current citizen and resident of the UK.  Likewise Kumar Bhattacharyya, Baron Bhattacharyya was born in Dhaka, in what was then India and is now Bangladesh, but is also apparently a UK citizen and resident.  There are a smattering of others who were born outside of the UK, but all seem to have been longtime residents of the UK at the time of their elevation to the peerage. -- Jayron  32  06:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Between his life peerage in 1960 and his appointment as Governor-General of Australia in 1965, Casey made annual trips to the UK and put in appearances in the Lords. I have no idea if he took part in debates or anything else, but he was extraordinarily well-connected to the upper crust in the UK, so I'm sure he had plenty of things to keep him busy over there.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   11:12, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the most likely answer is that Geldoff is never going to get a peerage. Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm. You know this for a fact, do you, Alan? :)   Anyway, it doesn't alter the technical issue I raise.  He could get a peerage, in which case what I said above would apply.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   19:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll buy you a pint if he does! Alansplodge (talk) 09:42, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll hold you to that sacred and irrevocable vow. We have plenty of witnesses. :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   17:44, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There are life peers who cannot sit in the House of Lords - in three categories. First, the three who were suspended from the House back in October. Second, the ex-Law Lords who are now members of the Supreme Court, who are unable to sit in the House of Lords until their Supreme Court service ends. Third, the currently unique case of Baroness Ludford who is an MEP and unable to sit in the House during her service in the European Parliament (an automatic and temporary disqualification inserted in UK law to get around the ban on MEPs sitting in domestic Parliaments). Sam Blacketer (talk) 00:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Looking for a sci-fi book...
Dear RefDeskers! This one will be short, because there's not much to go on. My father recalled recently a science-fiction novel, in which the Chinese had grown into the world's foremost power, and had built enormous domes above continents (or just cities), to the extent that with time people forgot that they even can venture outside of them. That's all I have. Any ideas? Thanks in advance, and have a great day! --Ouro (blah blah) 04:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It may be a bit of a stretch, but is he recalling the original Buck Rogers novel, Armageddon_2419_A.D.? I don't remember the domes part, but the Chinese conquerors pretty much remained in the cities (at least of the former United States) while the "wild" Americans rebuilt, in secret, in the forests and mountains outside. Antandrus  (talk) 05:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Asimov's Caves of Steel has the other part; there's nothing about the Chinese, but Earth natives never leave the giant domed cities; while "Spacers" or immigrants coming to Earth from other planets, aren't allowed inside of them. One of the sources of tension in the novel is the contrast between the three main "ethnic" groups, the "Earthers" who live in the domes, the "Spacers" who live outside of them, and the Robots, whom the Spacers will work with, but who the Earthers shun.  -- Jayron  32  05:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's much more probable that it's Asimov rather than Buck Rogers, I'll suggest that to him later. That was fast guys, wow! Any other ideas anyone? --Ouro (blah blah) 05:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Other related stories are Heinlein's Sixth Column and some of William Gibson's works. In Sixth Column, Asians (don't remember if they're specifically Chinese) take over and there's a revolt against them.  I don't recall anything about domes though.  Gibson's works are much more recent but then you don't indicate whether the story is an old one or not.  In Gibson's works, many cities are covered by dome like structures but not entirely closed.  And Chinese culture dominates much of society.  Dismas |(talk) 05:15, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There are no domes in Sixth Column. The villains are "PanAsians" (with a very stereotypical Imperial Japanese vibe). Clarityfiend (talk) 07:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * May be a stretch, but in Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality of Mankind universe, Australia is filled with the ruins of the Chinese continent-city of Aojou Nambien. However, none of his stories is actually set in Aojou Nambien before its downfall... AnonMoos (talk) 11:31, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest it was one of the Chung Kuo series by David Wingrove. I confess I never got further than the first few chapters of Volume One, but the description in the series' article seems to correspond quite well with your father's recollection. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:01, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Absolutely correct. I spotted it right away: Chung Kuo by Wingrove. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:49, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes! Spot on! Thanks everyone! Sorry for not responding earlier, had some dental troubles. Thanks!!! --Ouro (blah blah) 20:51, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Proquest Archiver
I am working on various drafts for new articles. I find newspaper articles in Google Archives pertaining to the subjects of the new proposed articles, however they are "Pay-Per-View". Is there a way around this paying per view? Perhaps a library source or something like that. My local library does NOT have Proquest Archiver. Ideas?--Doug Coldwell talk 15:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Try requesting them at WikiProject Resource Exchange. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In my experience most US public libraries will give library cards at no charge to any resident of the state where the library is. So try some of your state's big-city libraries and see if they have Proquest.  You generally cannot get library cards by mail: you have to show up in person at the library to apply.  But even if you're pretty far from any big cities, you probably make it there once in a while, and can add getting a library card as something to do on your next trip.  Once you have the library card, you can access Proquest and other databases through the library's web site. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 16:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Great ideas I never thought of. Thanks!--Doug Coldwell talk 18:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Carnival as a reversal of the usual order
I've read this idea decades ago - during carnival, the king dresses as a commoner, a commoner as the king - that sort of thing. Can anyone point me to references to this? I've been looking through The Golden Bough, but haven't found it yet. I'm hoping for very specific descriptions of these topsyturvy practices.

Thanks Adambrowne666 (talk) 18:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The Romans had Saturnalia. Wiki Dao  &#9775;  (talk)  18:08, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ...which led to the Feast of Fools and the Lord of Misrule if you're into that sort of thing. ;) Wiki Dao  &#9775;  (talk)  18:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * There has been a lot written on this, from historical, sociological and anthropological perspectives. Have you any specific time/place in mind, or any particular perspective? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:11, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * (Argh, edit conflict) There are lots of articles about this...aside from Saturnalia, there is Feast of Fools, Feast of the Ass, Lord of Misrule, Boy bishop, maybe others. I don't know if there is an umbrella term for this sort of thing. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Also see Sadie Hawkins dance for a similar gender-based example. -- Jayron  32  18:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I suspect the anthropological terminology might be antistructural discourse, though no doubt the postmodernists would deconstruct that too, and confuse the issue even further. If you are really interested in the broader concept, take a look at the works of Victor Turner: His The Ritual Process: Structure and Anti-Structure  may be particularly relevant. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:44, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Chapters 55 to 58 of The Golden Bough (the abridged edition) relate to this, particularly 57 and 58, which are about scapegoats. Looie496 (talk) 20:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Since you asked for specific descriptions - there is a Carnival custom in a town near where I live where every year, come Carnival season, a "Council of fools" led by a personification of the pre-Lent Carnival in the form of a straw doll grabs local rule from the mayor and runs good-natured havoc in the town for a week. After the week (the week Ash Wednesday is in) is over, they realize it's not an easy thing running a town, hand the rule back over to the mayor and burn the Carnival effigy for leading them astray. The whole tradition is called "Pust Mozirski" (i.e. the Mozirje Carnival) but there's hardly anything to be found about it on the English Internets. TomorrowTime (talk) 21:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks heaps, everyone - that's just what I need.Adambrowne666 (talk) 05:23, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Le Carnaval de Romans might also be a good source. --Dweller (talk) 11:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As that's a redlink, see here --Dweller (talk) 11:44, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Gosh, even the French don't have an article on that seminal book. Here's a link to the relevant section in our biography of its author - I'll make the redlink into a redirect in a mo. --Dweller (talk) 11:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Brilliant, thanks, DwellerAdambrowne666 (talk) 10:39, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Getting a payday loan
A family member of mine is in a considerable amount of personal trouble after making a boatload of bad decisions. I am recommending a payday loan for said family member, as he is starting a new job but urgently needs money now (like, not in one or two weeks). How could I go about finding out researching him to get a loan? Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:43, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * What country are you asking about? In the US, if you want a typical, usurious "payday loan," you look up "paycheck advance" or "check advance" in the Yellow Pages and you'll find lots of dubious businesses willing to forward you the cash with a high interest rate and at high fees, assuming you do not live in a state where they are illegal (see article for list). (On the other hand, you'll walk out with cash in hand.) If you want a more serious loan, or want to explore restructuring options, talking to his bank is a good place to start. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:11, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

No, we live in Pennsylvania, so I think we'd have to call an 800-number to get a cross-state loan. Or something like that. And no, he doesn't need to restructure debt; he's been nowhere near responsible enough to have debt (outside overdrawn bank accounts to screw up his credit). I'm not putting my neck on the line for him, but he's making a legitimate attempt to bring his stuff together, and he needs money immediately. And yes, of course it's unscrupulous in most circumstances, but this is one of those rare times where $800 now is worth more than $1000 in two weeks. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * There are still other options: some shops sell/deliver without pre-paying, he could get what he needs from them; he could sell everything he has in eBay; he could ask his new employer for an advance payment (on the days he has already worked); he could get another job, which pays right away; or, if he has jewels, he could go to the Pawnbroker. Quest09 (talk) 22:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "he could get another job, which pays right away." Are you from Mars or something? Come on, that's not a realistic suggestion in any economy, much less the current one. Anyway the OP is pretty clear about what they are asking for, and are not asking for generic ways to hypothetically earn money. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:44, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not from Mars. It is a realistic suggestion, some simple jobs (taking a dog for a walk, waiting tables, moving companies, pay right away (after the day has been done)). Ah, I forgot something: don't paying the bill on time is a form too of "getting a credit". In a desperate situation, may be the only one. Quest09 (talk) 12:24, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * One does not get out of a bad money situation by wasting all of one's time looking for odd jobs. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:54, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * There are apparently quite a few internet "payday loan" (or "cash loan") sites out there. I don't know one from another, personally, but that's probably where I'd start looking in your situation, trying to discern which ones are reputable. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:44, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * From which planet are you from? Reputable payday loans don't exits. Quest09 (talk) 12:24, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not true. They have harsh terms but that's the tradeoff for the business model. If you are 100% aware of it while going in, and actually pay the thing on time, they're just a service with a tradeoff of a high fee for immediate cash without credit check. The high APR is a tradeoff for the fact that they do no credit check and will (and do) get a lot of defaulters. They aren't something that should be taken lightly, but for certain types of transactions they can be advantageous. There is always a tradeoff of risk and reward when it comes to credit transactions. They're at the low end of the scale, to be sure, but they're on the scale. Such forms of lending are common wherever people cannot establish "reputable" credit at normal institutions. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:54, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Does he have a credit card? Even a cash advance against one would almost certainly charge less than a payday loan. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:50, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You probably already know this, but payday loan companies are just legal loan sharks and something like 90% of the loans are not paid back on time, and, as our payday loan article notes, the effective interest rate can, legally, exceed 3,000 percent in some places. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:54, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I worked in the bank for two years, so I'm quite familiar with them. Yes, a very heavy portion of the people taking them out were unable to pay them back, something like 90% or more, which of course caused fees from both the lender and the bank. The shadiest practice was, if the contract signer didn't read the fine print closely and opt out, they'd get signed up for "identity theft protection" and have a $100 computerized check hit their account. There were a lot of shady companies out there whose sole business model consisted of ripping the customer off (e.g., Reservation Rewards, or anything sold with acai berry... the companies constantly changed name to avoid scrutiny). Of course it was a check, not an ACH transaction, because checks aren't covered by Regulation E disputes. It still makes me mad thinking about it; although the boneheaded customers certainly did themselves no favors, I felt really bad for, say, the newly married 22 year old guy trying to impress his wife and make a living for himself, but doing it all wrong.

Anyway, I digress. Yes, I know it's a loan shark, but frankly he's gotten himself into a pickle, all of which is self-inflicted, and he needs to stand on his own two feet and this may be the way. I would very carefully review his ability to pay back of course.

And yes, getting an advanced check isn't a bad idea, if it's at all possible (and doesn't make his brand new employer frown at him and fire him on the spot for being suspicious). Magog the Ogre (talk) 01:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Try http://www.zestcash.com/ - they are less usurious than others, but it's still a very expensive way to borrow money. See also: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1793087 Ariel. (talk) 02:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Pawning something might be a better optionHotclaws (talk) 01:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't see this mentioned earlier, but sorry if I missed it. Is a credit union an option? They sometimes are more helpful than banks in this sort of situation. 86.161.208.185 (talk) 13:21, 9 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought the standard American responce would be to sell your blood. How much would you get? 92.24.190.135 (talk) 21:54, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Using Aggadah (Nonlegal literature) of Talmud literature as a research tool
Using Aggadah (Nonlegal literature)  of Talmud literature as a research tool

Greetings.

I would like to reference the Aggadah, whether of the Talmud or of the Midrash (English version). Specifically, I want to find references to Christianity in the Aggadah. How does one use the Aggadah? I have no clue. Are there separate missives I need to review? Or are they usually compile into one book with separate chapters, like the Bible? Is there an index, or effective guide to using the Aggadah? How does one even go about finding English versions of the Aggadah?

Thanks for taking the time to answering my questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.147.236.194 (talk) 22:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The Aggadah is not a separate book, but is mixed into the Talmud. The article on it has some pointers. Be really really careful when researching Christianity in the Talmud there are a TON of fictional sites on this subject - there are probably more fake ones than real ones. Ariel. (talk) 02:42, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

In addition to Ariel's excellent answer, there are lots of ways to access Aggadah. A good one, if you read English and Aramaic, is to use Marcus Jastrow's epic dictionary of the Talmud, and look up the name/s or terms you're interested in. There's also the Encyclopedia of the Talmud, which I think is available in Hebrew only. There may also be online sources. --Dweller (talk) 11:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Redlink for us, but here's the bluelink on he: --Dweller (talk) 11:35, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And now a bluelink for us too (OK, a redirect) --Dweller (talk) 11:37, 10 December 2010 (UTC)