Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 January 26

= January 26 =

Charity idea
I've had this idea for the last few days and I was wondering if anything like it has been implemented anywhere before. Basically, there would be a database of people who, while they may have a few extra dollars every week, are essentially living paycheck to paycheck. And if they could get maybe one credit card bill or car loan paid off, then they would be able to have a bit more breathing room and maybe even have some savings. So, they'd sign up and pay in to the system maybe $5-10 per month. And each month, the organization would choose one person to be paid all this money. So, say you had 100 people in the group and each paid in $10. So, that month a person gets chosen and receives the $990 (not including their $10 since it was their month). Then the next month, it goes to the next person on the list and so on. Granted, there would have to be more rules and regs but basically, I think you get my idea. And of course, the groups would have to remain relatively small otherwise it might take years for someone to get to "their month". Even at 100 people, that would be a while to go all the way around. But anyway, has anything like this ever been done? Dismas |(talk) 02:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Depending on how much "administrative costs" the group managing your scheme takes "off the top", this essentially sounds like a type of Ponzi scheme. -- Jayron  32  02:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * (EC)I see where you're coming from. But to be honest, if we change the conditions only very slightly, we end up with a friendly society, in which for regular payments one can be entitled to a loan; or change them again and we have a lottery. Change them once more and we arrive at premium bonds. I think you can see the seeds of the destruction of your own scheme, too. You'll get the $990 at a less than optimum time. And you'll probably have a job making everyone stick to the 100 payments necessary - a problem that does not affect the more scalable examples in my answer. Bottom line, for me, it's utopian & hence will not work.


 * Meanwhile I don't think it is anything like a Ponzi scheme. Let's assume the admin costs are, say, $900 per week. The payout if $90 per week. So long as everyone understands that, there is no Ponzi element whatsoever. Ponzi typically depends upon converting money received from new investors to pay interest to previous investors. Simply having humongous admin fees is not the same thing at all. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It sounds like a korean kye, though on a smaller scale. See this Straight Dope article, as well as this explanation here.  Both pages stress that strong ties among the different parties are necessary to ensure that no one reneges. Buddy431 (talk) 04:22, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If you modify it so that you only get the $990 when you need it... then it's just (poorly organized) insurance. --Mr.98 (talk) 04:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * No wealth is created by this scheme, so I fail to see any benefit. Why doesn't everyone just use that $10 a month to pay off their own debt? By the end of the scheme, everyone will be in the same position as they would have been without the scheme. All that is different is that some people got to pay off their debt sooner than they otherwise could, so pay less interest, and others paid it off in one lump sum at the end of the scheme rather than regular instalments, so paid more interest. It just creates inequality, that's all. It's just a (possibly deterministic) lottery, except with a high enough chance of winning that you can expect everyone to win eventually and a rule that says you can't stop playing after you win. --Tango (talk) 05:43, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it would work or made financial sense or that I had all the details ironed out. I just thought my idea was slightly novel and was looking for similar ideas.  Dismas |(talk) 08:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

This system probably doesn't make sense where you have access to banks (it would be more efficient if everyone just pay the $10 to their bank account every month). It can be a good idea where access to other types of saving does not exist, though, as the system does not have to "store" the money anywhere. For an abstract discussion of systems looking somewhat like your idea, including the problem of people leaving the system, see this academic paper. Jørgen (talk) 08:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks all for the helpful links and such! Dismas |(talk) 08:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * There's nothing new under the sun, Dismas, but you get cred for having a positive idea. This is virtually identical to how a Starr-Bowkett Society operates.  Or did.  That was how my Dad got his first home loan, and I still remember my by then slightly dotty grandmother, well into the 1980s, decades after they became defunct, telling me to "Join a Starr-Bowkett, my boy, and you won't go far wrong".  It's been literally 25 years since I was last consciously aware of thinking about Starr-Bowkett Societies, so "thanks for the memories".   --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   10:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * This idea is implemented in various parts of the world, and was the topic of an NPR Planet Money podcast. I believe the episode was Making A Life On $2 A Day; the comments about "RSCAs" refer to this sort of savings club.  -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:45, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Rotating Savings and Credit Association--Nricardo (talk) 03:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I didn't find it at RSCA. I added a disambiguation link there.  -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:31, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think this is how the earliest building societys (forgive spelling) operated in Britain. The money was to buy a house rather than pay off debt. Now the building societies have enough money up front to lend you, and they have turned into banks. 92.24.54.79 (talk) 22:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hurricane Katrina special
Exactly how much money was raised to help Hurricane Katrina victims on the 2005 Larry King Live three-hour special "How You Can Help"?24.90.204.234 (talk) 05:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Print a verse of a poem.
How can I get printed on my screen the verse of Twas the night before Christmas? Thank you   Gerald Buckley  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.189.32.54 (talk) 07:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "printed on the screen"? Do you mean like a picture of the text that you could use as wallpaper? Or do you mean a website that contains the words? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:32, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The article A Visit from St. Nicholas (the actual title of that poem) contains the full text of the poem, if you click the "show" link in the little blue box (as it is almost 200 years old, the text is in the public domain.) Even easier, if you type "A Visit from St. Nicholas" or even "'Twas the Night Before Christmas" into http://www.google.com you get an uncountable number of websites with the full text.  -- Jayron  32  07:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * A Visit from St. Nicholas. --Tango (talk) 07:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

He also asked this question (under a different IP, but same city) at the Help Desk. Probably best to keep it here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Joseph or JOSFH camp in Vavuniya
Somebody told me that the Joseph camp in Vavuniya actually had nothing to do with somebody or something called "Joseph", but that it referred to "joint operation" something. I could not find much reliable confirmation on the web, but here is a reference to "the Joseph camp (Note: the reference is to the former JOSFH or Joint Operations Security Forces Headquarters) in Vavuniya". However, this 2008 report from the French asylum agency uses the name "camp Joseph" and says that nobody knows its meaning, but that there is a "Joseph Lane" in the vicinity of the camp. There are also references to a JOSSOP (Joint Services special operation) camp. Is there any reliable source on the correct name of this camp and its origin ? Apokrif (talk) 16:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Geography Question
Pl help me identify the nation

1. It was once part of a much larger group, it continually fought outsider control and finally became independent 2. It actually received significant financial assistance for a number of years but the assistance is again under review by its major benefactor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.74.9 (talk) 13:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Could be any of the countries of the former Soviet Union. --Richardrj talkemail 13:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Or any former British or French colony. Googlemeister (talk) 14:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Could be Iraq. Or Israel. (Both once under British rule, right?) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Israel has never been under British rule. Palestine and Iraq were mandated, basically rule (some people disagree). - Jarry1250 [Humorous? Discuss.] 20:17, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Or Haiti. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There is also Madagascar, for which aid is now under review because of what most foreign governments see as an illegal coup. Marco polo (talk) 16:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Every time this user asks this type of question, someone asks the user to tell us where the questions come from so we can better provide an answer. The user has rudely and stubbornly refused to explain where the questions come from.  Therefore, it is not necessary to list every possible country that could match the criteria.  One is good enough. --  k a i n a w &trade; 18:57, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually it was pointed out on one occasion that he's getting the questions from here. I assume the OP pledges to donate the $100 prize to Wikipedia?  Ka renjc 19:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing that out, Karenjc. I had missed it.  No more help on these quiz questions (from me, anyway).  Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This also came up on Wikipedia talk:Reference desk. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, the sure cure would be to keep supplying answers that we're certain are wrong. For example, one answer to this question could be "Zsa Zsa Gabor". :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:45, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Or just wait until it is over and say: I know. I know.  Palau. --  k a i n a w &trade; 13:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Say if it really was so, Joe.
Having watched Band of Brothers, I was impressed by the first episode, Currahee, which showed the members of the 101st ready to embark for that unfortunate debacle ( not their fault ) in Nomandy. They showed Englishmen dressed up as German SS and other such. Good idea to familiarise the men as to whom they would be coming up against, but did this really happen, given that although the miniseries is based on fact, the article states there were some historical inaccuracies and licences. I have tried to look everywhere to find out, but nothing. I also realise this could be considered an Entertainment question, but ultimately I am asking about a possible historical fact. And if this was true, and say the Germans had captured the south west of England, would they have shot the cockney gent in question, considering his intention in wearing the uniform was not to spy, but to educate ? Not that legal details like that ever concerned the Nazis, considering Hitler's Commando Order. Thanks, The Russian Christopher Lilly 13:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I expect that he would have been shot - as would a German caught by the Allies in a British or an American uniform. I don't think in this case the Nazis would have acted any harsher than the Allies. The Geneva Conventions are thin on details but spies are apparently required to be given a trial under the earlier Hague Regulations though. Rmhermen (talk) 15:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting link about Allies in German uniforms here. Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And here, a soldier who dressed as a German as a film extra. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alansplodge (talk • contribs) 16:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Training exercises would almost certainly have been abandoned if the Germans had actually invaded Britain (or at least moved further from the front line) so your hypothetical cockney would have been very unlucky to be in the middle of a training exercise in a German uniform right when the German paratroops drop. Also they probably didn't wear German uniforms except when actually on the training grounds, to avoid the reverse problem of a 'German' being shot by an overzealous Home Guard solider. If you are in a German uniform when real Germans suddenly arrive you would probably take off enough of the German uniform so as to make sure your own side didn't shoot at you. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * german spies would be expected (at the very least) to speak German, and to actually be trying to pass themselves off as german soldiers and infiltrate german ranks. some poor, hapless dogfoot who got caught in a german uniform would probably be treated like any other PoW.  -- Ludwigs 2  09:15, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I guess, if the cockney portrayed on Band of Brothers had been captured before taking off his uniform by a more decent German, I suspect they would hold a court martial to determine if his intention had been as a spy - which in the context shown on the programme in question, it was not. I wondered about whether some of his own side might shoot him, mistaking him for the real thing, but I think ( although maybe unreasonably ) that the allies would have thought the thing through before getting the man to don the uniform.

I assume this really did happen as shown at Upottery, which as I said, was a good idea. As for spies, they get what they deserve if caught, as the Geneva Convention itself says - I have seen photos of the executions of the SS men who caused mayhem at the Battle of the Bulge - as long as there is a proper trial. Sometimes a bit much to hope for on the side of the Nazis especially, considering the kangaroo courts Freisler ran in the name of the Fuhrer, but then, Nuremberg itself should have dealt with all war crimes - not just those of the enemy. Not that I would have wanted allied spies to be shot, but if those are the rules, the spy should know them, then they can't complain when caught.

One interesting thing was a documentary I saw about a British officer who tried to escape Colditz Castle by dressing up as one of the more famous German guards all the men knew. The ruse was spotted, and he was marched back to his cell, but was not shot as a spy. I suspect his intention in wearing the faked German uniform was not to spy, but to escape, but I assumed the Germans would not see the distinction. It appears in this case they did. But then, with the Great Escape, the Germans did execute others who were clearly not spies. Thank You all for Your help. The Russian Christopher Lilly 12:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Colditz was a camp for officers. The Nazis treated different groups of prisoners very differently, as even a swift think will reveal, and would have treated officers with greater care than enlisted men. That said, I'm unconvinced they'd really have shot enlisted men for using a uniform as a ruse. From my vague memory of Pat Reid's book, when they used fake uniforms, they ditched them immediately they were out of the castle compound. --Dweller (talk) 14:22, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The British could make the claim also that since the uniform was not real, there was no actual " wearing of enemy uniform ". I assume more organised SOE units would used captured uniforms, as the character in Band of Brothers said his was. But this is just a game of semantics, since the point of wearing either a real uniform, or one that looked real, was the same - to deceive. I have always been intrigued by the German Paratroopers in The Eagle has Landed, with regard to their insistence on wearing their Fallschirmjaeger gear underneath the captured British/Polish ones they had on for their trip to Norfolk. They said it was to avoid a firing squad, but my thought on that, was that the British would likely have shot them anyway, because, regardless of what they wore underneath, they were still wearing enemy uniform in order to deceive. By their rationale, the SS men at the Battle of the Bulge could claim that, yes, they were captured in American clothing, but did they not still have the SS tattoo indicating their blood group under their armpit ?

Of course, The Eagle has Landed is fiction, trying to make itself look like fact with Higgins' use of the false document technique, but this is an interesting question - would the British have shot them ? I would have. In the end, ironically, their very insistence on wearing their uniform is their undoing, when one of them is killed in the mill saving the little girl from drowning, when his Iron - or Knight's - Cross is exposed. Had they decided not to do something which might not have made a difference anyway, they may have gotten away with their plan. Again, though, a story - although I am sure that similar things did for real occur in the War, which had such an effect. Yes - I forgot about each side's regard for the others' officers - as shown at Andersonville during the US Civil War, where the South sent the enlisted Northern prisoners. I guess the nobs all stick together, and always will - get every one else to fight their wars for them, and play friendly among themselves.The Russian Christopher Lilly 11:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Finance: Comparing exchange rates and import-export data
Hello fine folks! I have a homework assignment where I have to chart the export import data for india over the years and compare it to the exchange rate over those years and see any correlation and match that to theory. I am not entirely sure what exchange rate figures I should use because the exchange rate fluctuates daily whereas export import figures are yearly. Should I use the mean? Or something else? What will be the best metric for this comparision? Any help will be deeply appreciated. --ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 15:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Export and import data are generally available on an annual basis (sometimes more often, but using quarterly figures would complicate your task needlessly). I agree that the exchange-rate figures are the trickiest.  First, there is the question which exchange rate to use.  The US dollar exchange rate will be affected by fluctuations in the dollar that have nothing to do with India's trade balance.  The same is true for any other individual currency.  Therefore, I recommend that you use a trade-weighted index for the exchange rate, which is available from the Bank for International Settlements.  The BIS data are monthly, which raises the question how best to compare this data with the annual trade data.  You could calculate a mean for the year, but if your goal is to assess the impact of trade on exchange rates, it might make more sense to cite the weighted exchange rate for December of each year.  However, this is a judgment call.  Perhaps you should ask your instructor's advice on methodology.  Marco polo (talk) 16:17, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much! Is it correct that trade figures are calculated at the end of the year - by using the end of year exchange rates? Because if that is so then it would make complete sense to proceed like you advise. ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 17:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * A reliable source should include a note on the basis for its figures. If your source is the Indian government, then I would think that the trade data would be reported in Indian rupees, which gives you a choice of how to figure the exchange rate, though I think year-end figures make sense if you are trying to capture the effect of the trade.  If the Indian trade data come from an international agency and are expressed in terms of a currency other than rupees, then the agency should make clear its method for calculating those figures.   However, I don't see a particular reason why you have to use the exchange rate as of, say, May 1 of a given year just because that was the rate your source used to convert its Indian data for that year.  It would still be valid, I think, to use a year-end rate if you want to capture the effect of the trade balance on the exchange rate.  Marco polo (talk) 18:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It sounds like this is a pretty open task. Can you choose how you present this data? I'd be tempted to plot a line graph with two y-axes, one for the exchange rate and one for the trade, on left and right of the graph. That way you can plot all the monthly exchange-rate data in one colour, and all the year-end trade figures in another, and see if there are any patterns. This has the advantage of clearly showing the fluctuation in the exchange rate. 86.179.150.105 (talk) 01:50, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That sounds like a very good idea for graphical representation (I can chose the presentation). In fact I have even managed to get hold of the the monthly export import data, as well as the monthly (dollar) average exchange rates. Now the only question is - is it meaningful to compare changes in exchange rate and export-import month-by-month? I mean is there a month-by-month variation in trade depending on exchange rate? 220.225.87.66 (talk) 10:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I’m afraid Marco polo is leading you astray. Using an index is going to give you nonsense results, and December only data will distort the actual results from all previous months. Given that the question is about trade, which is overwhelming conducted in US dollars, the relevant exchange rate is Rs:US$1. And, as you are looking at several periods, the proper rate to use is the period average. So, for 2004, don’t use the year-end (single hour or day) rate, but the average for the entire year. There’s a nifty calculator (free) at http://www.oanda.com/currency/historical-rates. Oh, and full disclosure: this is all original research, or as my boss calls it, “doing your [i.e., my] job.” DOR (HK) (talk) 10:25, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think it's time for a little disclosure... actually my instructor said she will mark me on the basis of my judgement on how to compare exchange rates to foreign trade. The period average was the first thing to come up in my mind - but it was too obvious so I thought I'd ask here. I know it's a little unethical, but I'm in a tight corner, I am usually very good :( 220.225.87.66
 * It should be pretty logical: I'm interested in all trade during a certain month / quarter / year. So, I shouldn't use an exchange rate that only applies to a specific day (year-end), and since I need a "real-world" exchange rate, I can't use PPP or a trade-weighted index. Matching the exchange rate with the period of trade is easiest if I use an average for the same period (month / quarter / year). Bingo! DOR (HK) (talk) 01:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I confirmed with my instructor and she said using month-by-month period average and export-import data (which I have) makes sense. She also confirmed that I should use dollar exchange rate instead of trade-weighted index. Thanks a bunch :) --ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.87.66 (talk) 18:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

What percentage of anti-abortion Americans oppose the death penalty?
Thanks. 66.65.139.33 (talk) 18:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I googled [anti-abortion death penalty] and bunch of references came up, one of which could be a survey of the type you're asking about, but I haven't time to do that search right now. I did find this article interesting, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Vital statistics down through the ages ?!?
I am fairly certain that what I am looking for exists. I am probably using the wrong search key or search criteria.

I am looking for a summary page of the known vital statistics of mankind down through time.

I want to look up things like: How tall was the average ancient Roman? How much did he probably weigh? What was the life expectancy of an adult? What might have been the infant mortality rate? What diseases and other causes of death were most common? How does that compare to Chinese, Gauls etc. of the same period, of later or earlier periods?

Surely someone has assembled this kind of speculative reference based on skeletal remains etc. for the use of archaeologist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bill Case (talk • contribs) 20:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know that this information has ever been collected in a single location, though it is readily available, usually in the form of anthropological comparisons to 'modern' man. you could probably find cross-historic comparisons for specific vital statistics - e.g. body size - with a simple google search, but I don't think you're going to find a compendious cross-historical, cross-cultural table anywhere.  if you do, though, let me know - that would be interesting.  -- Ludwigs 2  09:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest you make a start by looking into the armour we have from each of those cultures and periods. --Dweller (talk) 14:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * A particular view on this question can be found in Mark Nathan Cohen, Health and the Rise of Civilization. It has very extensive references that you could follow up. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:42, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Biological anthropology texts might have some answers, but as said above, you'll probably find that there isn't a single source of data. You might have to trawl through a bunch of journal articles and papers to find the data. Steewi (talk) 00:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)