Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 July 22

= July 22 =

Dueling - how do the outcomes relate to one's satisfaction and restoration of honour?
In dueling, if the challenge is declines, is the honour of the challenger deemed automatically restored or still declined? If the agreement is to fire a single shot, the challenger misses and the challenge does not, is the challenger's honour deemed restored, unaffected, or further damaged? --78.148.143.76 (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This, of course, depends on when the duel took place, where, and who was involved. Is it a legal duel, or quasi-legal? Since you mentioned guns I suppose you must be thinking of the quasi-legal seventeenth/eighteenth century duels between nobles when one of them felt dishonoured somehow...and since those were technically illegal I don't think there was a formal set of rules. Generally it was dishonourable to decline a challenge, but was the honour of the challenger restored? Well, was the honour of the challenger at stake? Person A could accuse Person B of something, and offer to prove it in a duel, but Person B could also offer to defend himself through a duel, so if B challenged A, and A refused, would A's honour be impugned? Probably, and he might also be in trouble for making a false accusation (if his accusation could not otherwise be proven, and when requesting a duel that was probably the case to begin with). If A challenged B, and B refused, B would likely be considered guilty of whatever the accusation was, even if the accusation was actually false. If you go further back in time to when duels were perfectly legal and were fought with swords, then there were usually specific rules enshrined in law about who could challenge whom, and for what reasons, and how to get out of fighting with your honour intact. It's all very complicated (for example, a challenge could not be made if the matter was not about property worth more than a certain amount of money, a brother could not challenge a brother, etc). If you have a specific place and time in mind, it would help answer your question more clearly. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:08, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There is at least one scholarly paper discussing the game theory of dueling. It concludes that dueling is a reputation statement in societies where other methods of enforcement are weak (I think). Google for something like "duel and game theory" or "duel and rational choice" or something like that. Shadowjams (talk) 06:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Identifying an artist
I was wondering if anyone would be able to identify the artist of a painting. I tried reading the signature, but I was unsure of some of the letters, and I wasn't able to find anything myself. The painting is here and a closeup on the signature is here.--  十  八  02:16, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It appears to read "S. Dressen", and some other websites, showing the same signature on other paintings, seem to agree. See this google search, for example. (Though here someone read it as B. Dressen). ---Sluzzelin talk  02:28, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: You will also find paintings by F. Dressen, but that artist's signature is different from S. Dressen 's . ---Sluzzelin talk  02:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

updated Rosie versions
When the Rosie the Riveter/World War II Home Front National Historical Park was officially dedicated, I saw some updated versions of Rosie the Riveter. There was one in particular. It's the same "We Can Do It!" with a modern day "Rosie". The reason I say "modern day 'Rosie'" is because the woman has bangs. I can't seem to find any products with that particular image anywhere. What's a good place to start?24.90.204.234 (talk) 07:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Try TinEye. 92.28.250.141 (talk) 09:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I tried TinEye. But I have to be registered, and that website is complicated. Are there any other places?24.90.204.234 (talk) 19:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not think you have to be registered. Find an online image of Rosie the Riveter, copy its URL or that of its page, go to the front page of the TinEye website and paste the URL in the appropriate box. You might be able to get Google to do the same think, as it often offers a 'Find similar' option for images. 92.15.3.219 (talk) 18:22, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If "bangs" = "a fringe", is it this one? http://moomoney.net/2007/01/23/moo-the-riveter/ 92.15.3.219 (talk) 18:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You could give some more information. When was your park dedicated? Was the image you saw a painting or a photo? What else can you remember about it? Was it the version with a redhead eating a sandwich? 92.15.3.219 (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

To answer your first response, no, that's not the one. To answer the questions on your second response, the park was dedicated in October of 2000. The image was like a computer-generated updated painting. It wasn't the version of a redhead eating a sandwich. It was a brunette with bangs, flexing her muscle while rolling up her sleeve.24.90.204.234 (talk) 01:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There are a googol images of Rosie The Riveter on Google - try looking through those. 92.28.242.111 (talk) 22:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone altered the above from "a googel" to "Google". I've altered it back and changed it to googol which is what I should have written. 92.24.191.36 (talk) 09:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Still, does anybody know what I'm trying to find in "modern day 'Rosie'" images?24.90.204.234 (talk) 21:47, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This one? ---Sluzzelin talk  01:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Not quite, but close. The "modern day 'Rosie'" I'm referrring to in a computer-generated, updated image is the J. Howard Miller design, except the woman's bangs are overlapping her forehead.24.90.204.234 (talk) 03:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * By chance I saw on the internet what you describe as a political poster relating to some place that began with "W" - Winconsin, Wyoming perhaps? I have not been able to find it again. Reading the OPs post again suggests there was an exhibition of many variants of the poster. 92.29.115.186 (talk) 09:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. But what does that have to do with what I'm trying to find?24.90.204.234 (talk) 18:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The title of the question is a clue. If you're going to be obtuse... 92.29.116.34 (talk) 22:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Look, I don't know how the question's title could be a clue. But who said anything about being obtuse?24.90.204.234 (talk) 01:42, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

incest and family relationships
Let's look at two family's A's and P's, and then some family relationship. A marries B, has C, their only child, then C marries D, who has ten siblings. One of these siblings is from a marriage between P's and Q's son and D's aunt. Is there anything incestuous? 92.229.13.132 (talk) 07:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How can D's sibling be a child of D's aunt? Rimush (talk) 08:25, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You tell me. 92.229.13.132 (talk) 09:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "You tell me"? You're the one who posed the scenario. Perhaps you could be a little clearer in explaining it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Most of the information we have is irrelevant to the question of incest (there's no direct blood relationship between A's and P's families, and the number of D's siblings is not important), and the crucial bit of information is missing: the one sibling of D (let's call her D2) who is the child of D's aunt can only be D's half-sister, and they must have the same father because they do not have the same mother. So D's and D2's father (son of P and Q, so let's call him R) fathered D with one woman (let's call her M1) and D2 with another woman who is D's aunt (let's call her M2). The question now is, is M2 M1's sister (no incest, not even that unusual...R married M1, had a daughter, then they got divorced or M1 died or whatever, and R married M1's sister), or is M2 R's sister (in which case we have incest). - Ferkelparade &pi; 09:55, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, many societies have traditionally considered it taboo (if not outright incest) for a man to marry the sister of his previous wife. See, for example, the Deceased Wife's Sister's Marriage Act 1907. Gabbe (talk) 10:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * And yet in the Bible, men were expected to marrying their brother's widow to continue the family line. Aaronite (talk) 16:32, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That obligatory type of marriage was levirate marriage. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:40, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There's lots of ways to have multiple marriages between two families, for example you could have two brothers marry a mother and daughter (as happened in my mom's family) or like in on my dad's side where 4 members of my grandmother's family (her aunt, herself, and two cousins) married 4 members of my grandfather's family, and none of them had any blood relation to their spouses. In close knit communities, this sort of stuff happens; and it isn't necessarily incestuous.  -- Jayron  32  02:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

closest thing pre-Holocaust to...
Reading this article Palestinian jailed for having sex with Israeli, what is the closest thing that happened to Jews in the pre-Holocaust German atmosphere? 92.229.13.132 (talk) 07:53, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Pre-holocaust? You mean the Nuremberg laws, among others? Shadowjams (talk) 07:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * if that's the closest thing. I'm wondering what the closest thing that happened to a Jew (a single time) was. 92.229.13.132 (talk) 08:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I mean "which pre-Holocaust incident is most similar to the one the Telegraph mentioned in their story?" as suggested by Gabbe.
 * In that case, I would agree with Shadowjams, the Nuremberg laws are similar, in that they prohibited Jews from having sex with non-Jews in Nazi Germany. There is a big difference, however, compared with the case you've linked. There, the man was not punished for having sex with the woman, but for letting her think that he was Jewish. Inter-ethnic intercourse is not itself illegal in Israel (unlike in Nazi Germany), but apparently not revealing your true ethnicity in order to acquire sex might be. Gabbe (talk) 09:47, 22 July 2010 (UTC) added correction Gabbe (talk) 10:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I was not looking for a class of laws but the closest SPECIFIC case, for a single Jewish man. What is the closest thing that happened to a Jewish man (or woman)?  (Of all the legal things that happened to Jewish men and women pre-Holocaust, which single case regarding a single Jewish man or woman was the closest to the linked event?)  92.229.13.132 (talk) 09:52, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Hiding your ethnicity is not a crime in Israel. The man was convicted for rape by deception, acquiring sex under false premises. Poliocretes (talk) 10:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * According to your understanding of what happened, what is the closest case (for one Jewish man or one Jewish woman) that you can think of or reference pre-Holocaust. This is a reference desk, after all.  I'm not here to debate what happened in Israel just now or why (in fact, I didn't give my opinion of what happened) I am just interested in similar pre-Holocaust cases, specifically the most similar one. 92.229.13.132 (talk) 10:19, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, for one, there were constant threats of violence against the Jews in Nazi Germany, and there are constant threats of violence against the Jews in Israel today. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:00, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your suggestion, Baseball Bugs, you are right to suggest that Nazi Germany was under outside threat, and in fact it was eventually conquered by outside forces, certain German cities are partly in ruins to this day. So, that is a correct analogy, as Israel is certainly under this threat from all sides today.  However, I wasn't really asking you to think about the threat to Israel, however credible it is.  I was asking about the Palestinian in the linked story, who was jailed for having consensual sex with a Jew after misrepresenting himself as another Jew.  I was asking what the closest case to happen to a Jew in pre-Holocaust Germany was to this.  For example (I'm striking it out, to show that this is hypothetical): "a Jew was jailed for rape after claiming to be Aryan" and "A Jewish man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with an Aryan woman who believed he was also Aryan because he introduced himself as [such]". ?  So, you see what I have in mind: what was the closest thing to that to happen, to a Jew (not to Germany or its people as a whole)? I am asking for an actual, real case, as this is a reference desk.  Thank you. 84.153.200.39 (talk) 18:51, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You misread what BB wrote. As for "closeness", there is no well-defined metric, therefore the question has no well-defined or unique answer. Circumstances are very different. Nazi Germany, e.g., rarely allowed such niceties as appeals for Jews (you do know that the verdict against Sabbar Kashur is not final, right?). Leo Katzenberger was killed for being unable to prove that he did not have a consensual affair... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, what BB wrote was quite out of place (a polemical political remark irrelevant to the original question), so the OP deserves an applause for doing his best to ignore its true character and (mis)read some relevance into it.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 21:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * (OP here, though I believe my IP has changed). I think we can all agree that a closer example would be one in which someone had lied about being Jewish.  Your example probably comes to mind because it is a famous one - in fact the article seems to indicate that it was only a show trial to the extent that the presiding judge was all but debarred even within the NAZI regime.  So perhaps a more usual case would be a better example, maybe from earlier in the period or for whatever reason with softer application of the law than the instanced execution, egregious even in the slewed justice system of the time.  This of course, will require real reference work.... 85.181.50.210 (talk) 21:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Using the search term "jew false identity papers ... " may help in this search - it turns up examples of jews who lived in nazi germany with 'aryan' status, in one case married to a nazi officer - that is Edith Hahn Beer. However I didn't find anything close to what you described.77.86.76.47 (talk) 23:35, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Confusion of historical dates.
Wikipedia lists birthdate of Renaissance artist Sofonisba Anguissola as 1535 and her marriage to Don Francisco de Moncada as 1571. However, it lists de Moncada's birth as 1586, death 1635. Both she and he were very prominent people. email removed as per policy guidelines  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.127.47 (talk) 20:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Francisco de Moncada, 3rd Marquis of Aitona is presumably not the same guy...we don't have an article about Sofonisba's husband, apparently. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This book may give a clue google books snippet - it seems his granfather was also called francisco de moncada - this also reveals that the grandfather was made marquis of aytona by felipe II (or spain or portugal don't know) This makes sense since the later grandson would logically be the 3rd marquis by hereditary after the father....
 * Someone else should check this - not my subject .. in short though it seems she was married to Francisco de Moncada, 1st Marquis of Aitona grandfather of Francisco de Moncada, 3rd Marquis of Aitona (unless the father was also of the same name .. ?) good luck.77.86.76.47 (talk) 22:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * (more) The catalan wikipedia may be more helpful (the spanish language one has only a short article) http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesc_de_Montcada_i_de_Montcada_(tercer_marqu%C3%A8s_d'Aitona) His father was called gaston, so the grandfather must be the husband of the painter, it also gives his (the 3rd marquis's) wife as " Margarida d'Alagó-Espés i de Cervelló-Castre" .. hope that helps.77.86.76.47 (talk) 22:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * (little more) The article "marquis's of aitona" in catalan http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marqu%C3%A8s_d'Aitona gives the first marquis as "Francesc de Montcada i de Cardona (primer marquès d'Aitona)" no birth but a death in 1594 - this seems to be the right person.
 * I removed your email address to prevent you getting spam - it's mentioned at the top of the page in the box about asking questions.77.86.76.47 (talk) 22:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, mystery solved - here is the correct man, with correct dates: Fabrizio Moncada. Died 1579. http://www.yourdictionary.com/sofonisba-anguissola