Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 June 13

= June 13 =

criminal sociology 1
define the broadest sense —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.93.235.2 (talk) 05:19, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * this is not a question that permits a sensible answer. can you please rephrase, using complete sentences, possibly even a small paragraph? -- Ludwigs 2  05:42, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * maybe they mean "define 'the broadest sense'". They read "in the broadest sense" and don't know what that means.  85.181.49.30 (talk) 09:27, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Alert-detached philosophy
I am interested in a philosophical idea that when bad things happen to you, you do not have to follow the traditional (learnt?) responce of becoming depressed including losing self-esteem. Instead, you can jettison that emotional baggage yet still be rationally and responsibly engaged with the situation.

I know little about philosophy and am only aware of a few scraps of things that touch apon this, such as Nietzsche's views, Stoicism, and the poem Invictus. It may be like the alertness that I vaguely seem to remember is favoured during eastern combat such as judo or the Samuari. On the other hand Buddism or Fatalism would mean passively ignoring the situation, which is not what I mean. Schizoid psychology worries me.

Where and what could I read more about this idea please? Thanks. 92.28.252.46 (talk) 14:11, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps not quite what you are looking for, but Epictetus springs to mind. - Bilby (talk) 14:22, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree with Epictetus, and Stoic philosophy may be what you're looking for. "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare sums it up. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:56, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but I had already mentioned Stoicism in the question, and I'm not too happy with it as it tends to imply just putting up with things passively, rather than being more active. Anything else please? 92.28.252.46 (talk) 15:15, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure philosophy would make much difference though training in something like Neuro-linguistic programming might without recourse to drugs. It seems people are naturally happy or a bit down and it has very little to do with the reality of their situation. It might be they deviate for a while for some special event but that will normally be temporary. Personally I'm against the business of trying to artificially boost peoples self-esteem without them having a good reason for such boosted self esteem even if it is just because they can now do something like tap out three four time. Dmcq (talk) 16:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry it was the "scraps" you mentioned above which led me to think you'd not investigated stoicism completely. What has come to mind is the Book of Job, which I know isn't a philosophy but you may find its themes relevant. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The Book Of Job has reminded me of the just-world hypothesis, which people may unthinkingly apply to themselves. 92.15.14.150 (talk) 19:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've had a look at Cognitive behavioural therapy, but it doesn't give a philosophical reference that I can tell. However, it does come close to the sort of approach you're looking for. The technique I'm most familiar with is "untwisting your thinking", which goes something like this. Original train of thought: "My girlfriend hasn't called me today. That must mean she doesn't love me any more. I'm going to kill myself." Replace this with "My girlfriend hasn't called me today. Maybe she's ill, or perhaps her phone's broken? I'll give her a ring myself to see if everything's OK." --TammyMoet (talk) 17:36, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The question reminds me of this article from Inc. Magazine, in which a "psychoanalyst and ethnographer" discusses how successful salespeople are able to remain happy, or at least motivated, in the face of a hundred rejections in a row. The article is about succeeding as a salesperson, but it takes only a little imagination to twist this attitude into a philosophy of living.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:25, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are a striver, a tryer, pushing everything to the limit, being at the edge, then you will have far more failure (and mistakes) to deal with than the unambitious or apathetic. Film stars, for example, are being constantly considered but rejected for roles that other stars get. 92.15.14.150 (talk) 23:39, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

You will find a lot more material on this in pop psychology and spiritual texts than in philosophy (at least, western philosophy). western philosophy has largely built itself around discourses on rationality: there are few western philosophers prior to the age of psychology who have considered that the mind could possibly be trapped by 'learned responses' (at worst, they would think that people might suffer from weakness of character or poor habituation). There were a few social theorists from the Frankfurt school who worked in some of the elements of Freudian psychological theory (Lacan, and to a lesser extent Althusser), and psychological themes have worked themselves into a lot of postmodern social theory (though usually as a form of domination). You might check out Erich Fromm (escape from freedom). Also, don't discount buddhism, taoism, and advaita hinduism (or some of the 'new-age' incarnations of eastern philosophy - Eckhard Tolle is a decent current example. the core teaching in most of these approaches is to disentangle the pure experience of a situation from the mediated experience (mediated experience means that you view what's happening through the lens of past results and future desires and fears, thus restricting yourself to the same results that you have always gotten).  -- Ludwigs 2  23:57, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What about existentialism, such as Bad faith (existentialism). 92.24.183.80 (talk) 12:30, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Someone mentioned The Book of Job. Did you study "Answer to Job", by C.G.Jung?  I think, however, there is no way around conscience.  MacOfJesus (talk) 17:33, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * This is not exactly what you are looking for, although it seems that one could relate them. The concept of reciprocal determinism dictates that you can only get out of something what you put into it. Kind of going along the lines of what you are thinking, it seems if you only put depression and mopiness into a situation, one will not yield desirable results. Instead, you could ignore those thoughts and put effort into remedying the situation. Something of a tangent, I know, but I figured I could add this to fuel thought, if nothing else. 99.53.113.16 (talk) 02:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Zanshin was what was favoured during eastern combat. 92.28.240.72 (talk) 14:15, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Sisu. 92.24.184.237 (talk) 00:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Authors and the ref desk
Has anyone ever seen a bizarre question asked (and answered) on these reference boards that appeared a year or two later in a novel? In other words, do novelists sometimes swing by these boards for help on strange and technical problems? Or would this be somewhat illegal; do authors have to give credit to the people who help them with their research? –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  14:30, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Frequently the reason "I am writing a book, and I need this answered as part of the research" is given by questioners for the questions they pose in here. I have no idea how many of those questioners who claim to be writing a book are actually writing one though. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * All text on Wikipedia including questions asked and answers given at reference desk is available under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License. So the author may use text from the ref desk provided that it is properly attributed and the derived work is released in a similar license. The conditions however may be lesser if the contributor of the questions and answers declare that they are licensing the text under a less restrictive license or into the public domain.-- Nilotpal  42  15:40, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Note that the licensing issue only applies to them taking our responses verbatim. It does not matter if they use the ideas and do not credit us. The ideas we give are not copyrighted in any way (only specific expressions are). There is nothing illegal whatsoever about not crediting your library reference desk when they give you an answer, nor is there anything unethical about it, especially for a fictional work (where being credited for anything is pretty rare anyway). --Mr.98 (talk) 16:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I've several answers to questions from the ref desk appear on another site when someone asked a similar question. 82.43.90.93 (talk) 16:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Not the ref desk specifically, and not an "author" as such, but I certainly know of my words in articles being used by people I've never met and am unlikely to. Case in point: last week I was listening to a radio announcer introduce a symphony by Antonín Dvořák, and he was talking about how the numbering of Dvorak's 9 symphonies got terribly confused.  It's a story I was very familiar with, since I wrote the section of our Dvořák article that goes into it in some detail (it's been slightly edited by others since, but it's essentially my work).  As I listened, I realised I was on particularly familiar ground, since the announcer was reading that section of our article word for word.  He's welcome to it, and I did take a certain pride in knowing I was the real "author".   :)  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   20:47, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * On a similar note, a dental professor from NYU was guest lecturing at Columbia and used a photo of mine in his lecture. When I went over to him afterward and told him that I had taken that photo, he at first didn't understand.  Then I explained that I had uploaded it to Wikipedia, and subsequent to that, numerous websites had taken it from there and he had gotten it through a google search.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 03:26, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the replies! The last two are neat stories! I have to admit, I get a little smirk on my face when I see articles quoting something I'd written, but nothing that prestigious. –  Ker αun oςc op ia◁ galaxies  06:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have seen an acronym that I invented and described on a web forum, turn up in a non-fiction book more recently. 92.24.183.80 (talk) 09:47, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been accused of plagiarising a web source for a Wikipedia article - and turns out the web source was identical to said Wikipedia article because it had copied (sans attribution) the Wikipedia article. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Most played national anthem in the world
Last night during the England-United States World Cup match just before the US national anthem was played, the RAI Uno sportscaster said that the US national anthem is the most played anthem in the world. Is there any truth in this statement?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know how one would measure that, but the US anthem is played before the vast majority of spectator sporting events in the US, all the way down to the high school level. I don't know if that's common in other countries. I don't remember any national anthem being played before domestic ice hockey games in Europe I attended. In addition, before TV stations began airing infomercials all night, they used to play the national anthem at the beginning and end of their broadcast day. Because of government policies favoring local broadcasting, the U.S. has a lot more TV stations than do most other countries. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 19:56, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There are countries where the national anthem is sung every morning in every school. They would probably out-number all the sporting events in the US. --Tango (talk) 20:08, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Malaysia is one but is probably too small for it to work (although AFAIK it's still played during the closing down of at least the government TV channels). However India may be another . China may be another . In some ways, it's easy to imagine these easily dwarfing the US which doesn't apparently have this. However in truth I would say this is the sort of unanswerable or meaningless claim since there's no definition of what you mean by 'most played'. Are you counting all time or per year or what? The US anthem's age helps if you count all time here somewhat although considering population growth maybe not much. Also how do you define 'played'? Per the TV stations thing do only seperate stations count? Most TV stations will have multiple transmitters do each of these count? Some TV stations will actually have regional ads, do these count as seperare? Or are you only counting TVs which are actually on and playing it? And do you actually mean played as opposed to people singing it? If you aren't counting singing how about whistling? If multiple bands are playing it for one event does this count as one or multiple? What about when they aren't at the same time? If it can be multiple how far away do they have to be to count? Could you say each person playing the song in one band is one count? For recordings played back over speakers, does each speaker count? Do you count per playback device (e.g. the radio, computer or whatever). If I decide I want this record and get 1000000 of my fellow citizens to help and we play it back on our computers or whatever for 20 weeks non stop but actually outputting to a dummy audio device does this count? Does it actually have to be proper timing or can I play it back 1000x real time? Can I play back multiple copies at the one time, each one 1 second apart perhaps? If I set up a feedback loop by accident or purpose does this count as infinite plays? Nil Einne (talk) 03:00, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the British national anthem gets an additional boost from all the playings of "My Country 'Tis of Thee"... SFriendly.gif -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * God Save the Queen is also the national anthem of several other Commonwealth realms. Oben am jungen Rhein (the Lichtenstein national anthem) is sung to the same tune. --Tango (talk) 00:06, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The national anthem is played in theaters on US military bases before every movie. My brother, who was in the military, often refers to this as "going to hear the national anthem and staying for a film".  Dismas |(talk) 01:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The Italian sportscaster said that due to it's being played at virtually every sporting event in the US, it was the most played anthem in the world; he also said it was "one of the most recognised anthems". He stated these as facts, not personal opinions.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This article says that School No 6, in Bengbu, China, plays their national anthem every Monday morning. If that is replicated in every school in China every week, it's got to put it near the top of the table. Alansplodge (talk) 16:46, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:OR here, but yes the national anthem is sung in the morning in every class room in every primary and secondary school in China - except at whole-of-school assemblies, when the nathem is sung by the whole school (the latter part of which I believe is the same as practice in most western schools).
 * I think the answer also depends on what you define as "played". If the anthem is broadcast on TV, is it played once (by the TV station) or played millions of times (by each television set tuned to that station? In the Chinese schools context, is the anthem played once by each school (by the central PA system) or a hundred times by the speakers in each class room?--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Bertha of Kent
Does her descendants survive to this day? Is Queen Elizabeth II descended from her? If she does have descendants, I think this would be the only clear Merovingian line of descent to the present.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 18:31, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * She had several grandchildren. That makes it extremely likely that she still has descendants alive today (and, if she does, she'll have a lot - millions, potentially). Tracing clear lines of descent from that long ago is very difficult, though, so I don't know if we'll be able to confirm that any particular individual is a descendant. --Tango (talk) 19:02, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I see that on their article, but I seem unable to pin them as ancestor to any later Kings of England. And the names get really confusing.  Can someone give me a line of descent from Bertha to a more recognizable historical figure like William the Conqueor or one of the later Kings of England.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 19:07, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * From her article it appears that only her son Eadbald of Kent had issue, and none of those children have articles on Wikipedia. You might try Cawley's Medieval Lands.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:11, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually some do have articles, but it's difficult to try and trace a line to William I.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:14, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Æthelburg of Kent also had issue. Rimush (talk) 19:27, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Bertha of Kent had two children: Eadbald of Kent and Æthelburg of Kent. Æthelburg had four children, Saint Eanfleda of Deira is the only one with an article. Eadbald had two sons (Eormenred and Eorcenberht), and a daughter (Eanswith). That's seven grandchildren, three of whom have Wikipedia articles. --Tango (talk) 20:14, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah but it looks like Eadbald's descendant eventually died out at Eadric of Kent and Æthelburg's descendants I'm not sure of. Can someone give me a line of descent from Bertha to a more recognizable historical figure like William the Conqueor or one of the later Kings of England. --Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 03:50, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It might be easier to trace William's Saxon ancestry to see if it goes back to Bertha.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * So far, no luck in tracing William's line, as he appears to be French and Norse in ancestry; however, his wife Matilda of Flanders had Saxon ancestry. It might be easier to trace her back to Bertha.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:07, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, ancestry back to Egbert of Wessex is easy. His mother is supposedly an unnamed daughter of Æthelbert II of Kent; he was the son of Wihtred of Kent, son of Ecgberht of Kent, son of Eorcenberht of Kent, son of Eadbald of Kent.  But - there's one obvious dubious link in this and, more importantly, the identity of Bertha is rather dubious - see this well-written Knol on the subject. Warofdreams talk 11:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've now created a basic article on Eormenred of Kent, another of Bertha's possible grandchildren. Warofdreams talk 15:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I just read it; nice article, Warofdreams.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:43, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Incidentally, this Knol by the same author is good on descendents from the Merovingians, but it appears to miss Eormenred being a possible child of Emma of Austrasia.  However, it seems that Eormenred's line died out or faded into obscurity by the early eighth century, after the children of Merewalh and Oswine of Kent. Warofdreams talk 15:56, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it would be easier just to go back from let's say Matilda of Flanders or Matilda of Scotland to see if their lines connect to Bertha. It's too hard tracing descent only to discover the line fades into obscurity after a few generations.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:04, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Having followed the lines of descent in Mike Ashley's genealogies in British Monarchs, we discover (as noted above) Bertha had two children: Athelburh and Eadbald. Eadbald had two children, Eormenred and Eorcenbert.  Eorchenbert's line (by male descent...girls weren't always recorded) died out with Eardwulf of Kent in 765, which ended the Kentish royal family line descended from Oisc of Kent. Eormenred's line disappears early 8th C. (ie. there was no one with enough significance after that to be recorded).  Athelburh's only child of note (ie. with descendants noted) was Eanflæd, who married Oswiu of Northumbria. Oswiu had children by other wives, but her children were: Ecgfrith of Northumbria - no issue - Ælfwine of Deira - no issue - Ælfflæd of Whitby - no issue - and Osthryth, whose son Ceolred of Mercia appears to have died without issue. (He possibly had a brother, who also had no recorded issue.)  So, in answer to the OP's question, while it's entirely possible that some people have descended through unrecorded female lines, no one alive today can trace a line of descent from Bertha of Kent without the discovery of new records. Gwinva (talk) 00:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Vitamin eh?
I was comparison shopping for multivitamins and found a generic house brand that exactly copied a more expensive brand: every vitamin and mineral down to the identical dose. Even the packaging was similar. How can this be legal? (This is in Canada.) Clarityfiend (talk) 19:26, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * From A to Zinc? Rimush (talk) 19:27, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * More info: this was a formulation targeting eye health, so it had an unusually large amount of lutein, so this isn't a case of copying the minimum recommended daily dose. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:32, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't it be legal? Can you patent a particular combination of vitamins? --Tango (talk) 20:16, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As to the contents, the 'house brand' might actually be made by the 'name brand' manufacturer to similar specifications, for sale to a slightly different niche in the market; I believe this is not uncommon in other products such as confectionery and dry goods.
 * With respect to the packaging, again such similarities of 'house brands' to more prestigious (and better advertised) 'name brands' is common, as can be seen on the shelves of any large supermarket: the aim must be to make the former somewhat suggestive of the latter but not so close an imitation as to actually violate trademark specifications (which will often include colours and layouts) and without making the resemblance so close as to deceive a 'reasonable person' (who is probably presumed capable of reading the actual brand names, etc). It seems likely that the imitating company will usually have obtained a prior agreement to such packaging from the imitated company to avoid possible costly legal proceedings. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 02:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

More than "might have": the formula was surely sold to the house brand, and probably even the factory time! Almost all brands do this, Listerine makes a big point of the fact that it doesn't: you can't buy the same thing from the generic. 82.113.106.112 (talk) 06:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If in fact multivitamins were ever patented, that patent has long expired -- no country has patents of such duration as the length of time the multivitamin industry has existed. As long as the packaging doesn't deceive the public, anyone can copy anyone else's multivitamin composition.  It's not copyrightable, after all.  As mentioned above, the only possible issue is packaging, i.e., trademark.  No one has to buy or license the "formula" -- it can be easily reverse-engineered if for some reason it isn't made from scratch, and only patents prevent reverse-engineering.  (To be rigorous, trade secrets would come into play if someone stole the formula rather than developed it or reverse-engineered it.)  Legally, multivitamins are no different from fish oil or ginseng or garlic extract or anything else in that line, regardless of their relative complexity.  Conceivably, a "targeted" vitamin ("for diabetic men over 50," or whatever) could be sufficiently novel and non-obvious to be patented, but trademark protection in that field is far more likely.  (Note that this reduces the profit motive for major pharmaceutical companies to research, e.g., the health benefits of fish oil, or ginseng, or whatever -- it can't be patented rigorously enough to create a patent monopoly, so it isn't worth it even in the case of some unknown miracle cure.  Ah, capitalist science!) 63.17.67.213 (talk) 10:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Under English common law, there might be an action under passing off. This is when one trader 'passes off' their goods as those of another trader, hoping to ride on their reputation and goodwill by confusing the customer. There is no need to register the get-up of the packaging or literature in order for the aggrieved party to take action in court. I don't know if this remedy or something similar is applicable in Canada. Where the offender is a very large supermarket chain, they often seem to get away with it because the copied supplier doesn't want to lose that outlet for their own goods by getting into a dispute with the supermarket. Adding link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off And also, here's one to Canada trademark law that mentions passing off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_trademark_law
 * True, but an action for passing off may go to the High Court and will often be very expensive. Thus, a decent IP lawyer may advise against such an action unless there is a good chance of winning. Registration of the patent/design/trademark/whatever to start off with is always the safer option. --JoeTalkWork 03:03, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, but to enforce any of these rights - registerable or unregisterable - you may need to go to the High Court and that would be expensive. The different rights you mention protect different aspects of a product. They won't all always be available for a particular product.
 * I do agree but going to court with a registered [whatever] is more likely to be successful because you don't have to prove the 'trinity' of passing off, just infringement. And I know those won't all be available for registration for every product - that's why I gave three registrable 'things'. --JoeTalkWork 11:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Doré's methods
I'd like some authoritative information on which of Gustave Doré's prints are lithographs, which are engravings, and which are etchings. (Or woodcuts, for that matter.) I'd particularly like to know about the Orlando Furioso prints, but reliable information on any of his works would be good. I'm also curious to know whether the plates were made by his own hand or by an assistant (in which case I think the etcher/engraver possibly deserves more praise than the artist), and what the letter T which appears in the corner opposite his signature means. 81.131.62.123 (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I've tried to find some useful info online for you, but I've come to the conclusion that your best bet would be to refer to the Catalogue de l'oeuvre complet de Gustave Doré by Henri Leblanc, first published in 1931 but recently reprinted and still apparently the authoritative work of its type. Provided you can decipher French, that would probably distinguish the different types of illustration from each other and may offer some help with your other queries.  The reprinted volume is $110 to buy, but a WorldCat search turned up the fact that there are copies in a number of libraries.  Your IP address appears to geolocate to northern England - if this is correct, the British Library store at Wetherby has a copy of it, as do libraries in Manchester, Glasgow and London.    .  Not too immediately helpful I'm afraid, but perhaps a start.   Ka renjc 20:02, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much :) 213.122.59.62 (talk) 21:03, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * (OP again) in the unlikely event that somebody comes after me seeking the same information: I think the answer to my question is that many of Doré's prints, such as the ones in London and by the look of it also Orlando Furioso, were wood engravings reproduced via electrotyping to preserve the blocks from damage. (Actually, not sure about that last - the wood engraving article says the blocks are good for thousands of prints, which surprises me.) He did oil (?) paintings directly onto the blocks, which were then engraved by one of his many assistants, one of whom is presumably "T". 81.131.9.214 (talk) 00:32, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

First Notable Person
Who is the first notable person that is known to have surely existed and was documented in records? I would assume it would have to be a Sumerian king or something. 65.31.80.94 (talk) 20:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * We've had similar questions before, March 2008 and December 2006, if that helps. (I thought we had a more recent one too but maybe not.) Adam Bishop (talk) 21:22, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If the reading of the Narmer palette is accurate, Narmer is a good candidate... AnonMoos (talk) 21:45, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Alulim of Sumer is often considered to be the earliest known king, though whether he really existed and exactly when is still a little uncertain, given that there are no contemporary records, only those written some time after.80.47.172.225 (talk) 09:40, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thag Simmons. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Any public studies ranking burnout by country among students
My gut tells me that countries like China and Japan should have higher levels of burnout because of the longer school days and school years than is found in the Western countries. I would love to see some real data though. Unfortunately, anything that looks like it would hold that information is subscription-blocked. Thanks. 71.161.46.37 (talk) 21:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * How are you defining "burnout"? It's a very vague term. --Tango (talk) 00:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There's the Maslach Burnout Inventory, which, though intended for people working jobs, seems like it could apply to students whose "job" is schoolwork. 71.161.62.201 (talk) 00:47, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You might get university drop-out (non-completion) figures from the OECD. It doesn't really equate to burn-out at all, but that's probably the nearest that you are going to get. There might also be comparative figures for suicides by age group. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done some reading, and on average, burnout is higher in China and Japan than most Western countries, but oddly enough, the US has higher burnout rates (almost half the American population) than either China or Japan. The average American has a 54 hour work week, 10 days of vacation a year (what they supposedly give you and what you get are two very different things, especially at lower levels) and American kids, while school is not nearly as long, have so many extracirricular activities that they get strained to their limits.  As someone who lives not far from New York City, which is probably the worst part of the country for burnout, it's readily visible all around.  People age faster than I thought was possible.  Also, in China a lot of people in lower-level academia die young, whereas in the US, they have shorter and fewer, but for many more years.  The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 15:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Looking for painting
What I remember is that it's an old (non-"modern") painting depicting two mythological figures: one is depicted as vapor or smoke, and "he" is "embracing" a woman (depicted as a woman, probably nude [Venus?]). I remember it as being in the possession of a museum in Austria, or thereabouts. This is what I remember, but either it is very obscure and hard to find via image searches, or I'm remembering some thing/s wrong. TIA. :) ¦ Reisio (talk) 22:13, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Zeus and Io as shown here? Bielle (talk) 23:59, 13 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Exactly! Bah, I must've mixed up "Venus" and "Zeus"... they look similar, no? :p  Thanks. ¦ Reisio (talk) 00:38, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You are most welcome. Bielle (talk) 04:07, 14 June 2010 (UTC)