Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 May 26

= May 26 =

Victorian court case about Calvinist Priest not seated in Anglican Church?
Does anyone know of a Victorian court case about Calvinist Priest not seated in Anglican Church? As I recall the Bishops backed up the decision not to seat a Calvinist as a priest, but he appealed the decision to the Privy council that supported him.--Gary123 (talk) 05:30, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the Victorian era a bit late for hammering out these sorts of things? This seems a few centuries too late for such debates to have been going on within the CoE, are you sure of the time frame?  -- Jayron  32  05:35, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it George Cornelius Gorham you're referring to? Gabbe (talk) 06:58, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

honorary doctorate
what is the eligibility to receive honorary doctorate? --Doktor Quest (talk) 08:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing specific—someone competent just has to want to give it to you. See honorary degree and Honorary Doctor of Letters. ╟─ Treasury Tag ►  most serene  ─╢ 08:58, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

What is Victorian Government?
What is Victorian Government and why is it so called? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anshubhandari2k4 (talk • contribs) 11:15, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If your not thinking of this Victorian Government the only thing I can think of is a government in the Victorian era. Jack forbes (talk) 11:23, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

The term "victorian government" has two meanings.

(1) The government of UK during Victorian times

(2) The state government of the state of Victoria (A state in Australia).

122.107.207.98 (talk) 12:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, like I said. :) Jack forbes (talk) 12:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

(3) The government of any of the other political divisions known as Victoria. See full(?) list here. Buddy431 (talk) 15:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Buddy's #3 is wrong. In North American usage, for any political division smaller than a country its own name is used as an adjective rather than being inflected.  So our state and provincial governments would include the Ontario government, the Kansas government, and the California government, not Ontarian, Kansan, and Californian... and thus any Victoria in North America would not have a "Victorian government".  And then, of course, for cities we generally don't say "government" anyway, but "council" or whatever they call it in that city.  --Anonymous, 21:01 UTC, May 26, 2010.
 * What if the unthinkable were true, and it was a place outside North America? --Phil Holmes (talk) 09:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Buddy said "any"; that's what I was challenging. --Anon, 15:46 UTC, May 27, 2010.

Why aren't Mathematicians starving?
There is no copyright protection for Mathematics. Therefore there must be hundreds of thousands of bit torrent downloads of all the mathematical works. No mathematicians who produces a work of mathematics will ever sell a single copy of their work. If they ever wrote something, people can legally duplicate their work without paying them a single cent.

So why aren't mathematicians starving in this world? 122.107.207.98 (talk) 12:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * What makes you think there is no copyright protection for mathematics ? Mathematical theorems and methods cannot be patented, but I don't see why a published mathematics book or paper should have any less copyright protetction than any other published work. Gandalf61 (talk) 12:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, many mathematicians are working in universities, where they get paid for teaching and researching, and not necessarily for writing books. Gabbe (talk) 12:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Even more, many mathematicians are paid for solving particular problems, as e.g. creating risk models for insurances or financial derivatives for banks or economical models for governments. As in many disciplines, the knowledge is basically cheap (but not easy) - just spend a few hundreds on books. Understanding what to do when is much harder. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Papers are protected by copyright law, and universities pay an annual fee to academic journals for access to those papers. However, the money just goes to the journals; the researchers aren't paid and will usually (at least in computer science, with which I'm more familiar) put all their papers on their website for anyone to download.  In order to push the state of the art forward, it's necessary to have access to the current state of the art, and mucking around with permission is the last thing that researchers want to do.


 * The researchers generally get paid by a university or government or occasionally a business. In each case, a combination of prestige and a desire for access to the result.  It's understood that everyone will have access to the newly-gained knowledge, but that's doesn't diminish its value. Paul (Stansifer) 13:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

the real question is "why are there mathematicians"? In a free market, there would be almost 0 mathematicians. Accountants, chemists, physicists, wall street quants, yes. But pure mathematicians: none. Professional pure mathematics is an example of government waste and excess. It also just so happens to be the only true progress humanity makes. 82.113.104.240 (talk) 13:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Pure mathematics is extremely useful in chemistry, physics and quantitative finance (along with hundreds of other fields) - in fact, those fields wouldn't exist without it. While a lot of funding of mathematical research (and other academic research) does come from governments, that's mostly because it is more efficient and effective to share results but companies are inclined to keep things to themselves (although they do often publish their results anyway, at least in less competitive industries). If governments weren't funding this research, companies would do so, so there would be pure mathematicians. There wouldn't be as many and they wouldn't make as much progress, but they would still exist. --Tango (talk) 13:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Your statement asserts that your statement is meaningless, since it isn't mathematical. Complete waste of space which will achieve no true progress, according to you. Indeed, you may be right. 81.131.30.213 (talk) 15:00, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Copyright Law : we discuss works for which copyright law cannot be applied. The law is designed to protect creative written works.

Ideas are generally not subject to copyright. From section 102 of [US]: In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

So Mathematics is NOT subjected to Copyright. 122.107.207.98 (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * You are confused. Mathematics papers are indeed subject to copyright. The ideas in the papers are not. But this is no different than any other field. For example, a legal brief is copyrighted, but the legal theories it describes are not. The actual writings of a philosopher are copyrighted, but the theories the philosopher describes are not. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 13:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Let me give you an example: suppose no one know how to solve a cubic equation. Suppose I wrote/published a paper on the procedure or method of operation to solve the cubic equation. What do you think the Copyright status of my paper will be? 122.107.207.98 (talk) 13:45, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly the same as the copyright status on any other original work. The method you describe wouldn't be protected but the presentation of it would be. --Tango (talk) 13:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Ideas are not protected by copyright (although, in some cases, they may be patented), but the expression of those ideas is protected by copyright. See our article on Idea-expression divide. Gandalf61 (talk) 13:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Look at this example: . It was the first polynomial-time algorithm for primality testing. It is marked (at the bottom) "© 2004 Annals of Mathematics". The fact that papers are copyrighted is the reason that publishers such as Elsevier and Springer are able to charge outrageous fees for copies of old mathematics papers that their journals have published. Fortunately, many mathematicians now publish preprints of their papers, so that more people have access to them. You should also see our article on Open access (publishing). &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 13:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Mathematicians make money selling textbooks the same as historians and chemists and economists. You can copyright mathematics textbooks, because you can copyright the expression and organization of the book. Even if it was just a book full of equations, if you had put them in a potentially creative order, that would be copyrightable (it is called a "compilation" under US copyright law). And the bar for "creativity" in copyright law is very low—an even halfway clever proof is probably sufficiently "creative" for copyright purposes. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

how many people have nickel allergies worldwide?
how many people have nickel allergies worldwide? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.104.240 (talk) 13:15, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The prevalence is about 0.8 to 2.5 per cent of males and 8 to 13.7 per cent of females, according to the studies cited here (PDF). Using our estimate of world population, 6,823,200,000, and assuming 50-50 male-female split, that's roughly between 300 million and 550 million people. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 18:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Typography in Shakespeare
Why exactly does the text of a Shakespeare play often exhibit a strange typography (specifically, the use of leading blank white space in the lines of some characters)?

For example, these are lines 1-3 of act 2, scene 6, in The Merchant of Venice:

1 Gratiano:    This is the penthouse under which Lorenzo

2 Gratiano:    Desired us to make stand.

3 Salarino:                                                   His hour is almost past.

Thus, in line 3, why is there all of that leading blank white space in Salarino’s line? What is this supposed to indicate? I assume that this has something to do with the keeping the correct meter of a Shakespearean verse, but I am not sure. Also, even if it does keep the Shakespearean meter in proper form, what practical effect does this leading white space have on the reader of the play (when he is reading the lines)? Or on the actor performing those lines (when he is speaking the lines)? Thank you! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 15:11, 26 May 2010 (UTC))


 * Yes. It's a meter thing. It's used to indicate that Salarino's line is half a verse. In other authors like Edmond Rostand you can even find thirds or quarters of verses indicated in this way : see for instance http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Cyrano_de_Bergerac_(Rostand) (right at the beginning) :

LE PORTIER, le poursuivant :  Holà ! Vos quinze sols !

LE CAVALIER : J’entre gratis !

LE PORTIER : Pourquoi ?

LE CAVALIER : Je suis chevau-léger de la maison du Roi !
 * (First alexandrine : -Hey! It's fifteen sols! - I can come in for free! - Why?


 * Second alexandrine : - I'm a chevau-léger in the King's Household!)


 * Rostand's example demonstrates the utility of this - with halves you could keep track without the spaces, but when it gets into thirds, quarters, or even fifths or sixths, it can become difficult to see where a verse ends, begins, or reaches its half, all things important for proper diction. I think there would be some examples in Shakespeare where you could find thirds or quarters of verses. --Alþykkr (talk) 16:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * PS : it may also have to do with the text being visually more pleasant (arguably) thanks to this typographical "trick". --Alþykkr (talk) 16:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * PPS : one last note : this manner especially highlights the beginnings and ends of "divided" verses, which allows one to see what rhymes with what. --Alþykkr (talk) 16:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The spacing is a convention, not a requirement, and doesn't appear in, for example, The Tragedie of Julius Cæsar as printed in the First Folio. --- OtherDave (talk) 02:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. A convention of whom?  The author?  Or the printer?  Thank you.   (64.252.65.146 (talk) 20:31, 27 May 2010 (UTC))


 * We don't have a single line of Shakespeare's plays in his own handwriting, so it's impossible to say what he himself might have done. (The First Folio appeared seven years after his death.)  My guess, and it's only a guess, is that spacing would typically be added by an editor, though a printer might have chosen to put it in.
 * I skimmed a 1597 quarto image of Richard III at the same site. That was published in Shakespeare's lifetime.  This edition does not show the inter-line spacing, either, though stage directions ("Enter Clarence with a gard of men") appear as if right-justified. --- OtherDave (talk) 12:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to all for your input. Much appreciated. Thank you! (64.252.65.146 (talk) 22:32, 31 May 2010 (UTC))

ROKS Cheonan sinking
Will this be like the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand? --J4\/4 &lt;talk&gt; 17:41, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Unlikely. Mutual assured destruction is a strong deterrent to open warfare between major world powers (any such war could easily turn into a nuclear war, so everyone would rather not start a war at all). It's impossible to know for sure, of course. The ref desk doesn't really do speculation, so I'll stop breaking the rules and leave it at that. --Tango (talk) 17:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Other dangerous moments in the past have included the Blue House Raid and the USS Pueblo capture. Neither incident sparked a war, though that doesn't mean the recent sinking won't.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:09, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A war is one thing - it could easily spark a war between North and South Korea - but the OP is asking about a world war, which is very different. --Tango (talk) 18:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it is pretty unlikely that this event will cause a war between Austria and Serbia, so no, it will not be like the assassination of ADuke Ferdinand. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 18:54, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You know perfectly well what the OP meant. --Tango (talk) 19:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is an article from Time about this that may be of interest, titled War on the Korean Peninsula: Thinking the Unthinkable. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:15, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

A problem with an article
I am conducting research on Father Junipero Serra. One of the names that came up was Juan Bautista de Anza

In reading his biography,I came across the following -

"He continued on to Monterey, California with the colonists. Having fulfilled his mission from the Viceroy, he continued on with Father Pedro Font and a party of twelve others exploring north and found the first overland route to San Francisco Bay. In de Anza's diary on March 25, 1776, he states that he "arrived at the arroyo of San Joseph Cupertino, which is useful only for travelers. Here we halted for the night, having come eight leagues in seven and a half hours. From this place we have seen at our right the estuary which runs from the port of San Francisco." [1] Pressing on, de Anza located the sites for the Presidio of San Francisco and Mission San Francisco de Asis in present day San Francisco, California on March 28, 1776. He did not establish the settlement; it was established later by José Joaquín Moraga. While returning to Monterey, he located the original sites for Mission Santa Clara de Asis and the town of San José de Guadalupe (modern day San Jose, California), but again did not establish either settlement."

The final part about him finding the first overland route to San Francisco and locating the sites for the presidio and missions appears to be wrong. Reading the biographies of Portola' and Crespi indicates they found those locations in 1769/1770 more than six years earlier.

Please see if this can be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lvcabbie (talk • contribs) 18:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * If I were you I'd try Talk:Juan Bautista de Anza first. Gabbe (talk) 19:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Hofstadter Allegorical Bundles
I believe that it was Douglas Hofstadter that said that the reason that you don't remember much about your early life is that everything is completely new. We organize information in a certain way, and it's only when we have a concept of certain fundamental objects like table, mother, car etc. that we are able to 'anchor and adjust' i.e. Ship - it's like a car (anchor), BUT it goes on water (Adjust). After a while we develop larger concepts by bundling our understanding of these fundamental objects together.

Anyhoo - I think that's how it goes - I could be all wet. I've Googled Allegorical Bundles, Metaphorical Bundles etc. but not found anything.

ISTR a nice concise piece that described this, and I'm pretty sure it was by Hofstadter.

So with all the foregoing, does anyone recognize this piece, can someone point me to it?

THX —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scifipete (talk • contribs) 20:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it's "bundle of analogies". Google has a few hits ---Sluzzelin  talk  20:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I recall reading that babies do not remember much due to their lack of language. 92.15.6.183 (talk) 21:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it's because some of us are witches and wizards when we're born. Don't discount evidence merely because it's almost a hundred years old. Deor (talk) 22:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I remember reading that Pal Erdos could remember things happening when he was just a few months old. I myself can remember moving house when I was 9 months old. It may be that our brains are still forming in the early months (I did a psychology degree and remember reading that, but damned if I can remember where!) --TammyMoet (talk) 09:28, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * My earliest memories go back to being very small, and the earliest ones involve a sense of 'paying attention', as if I were waking up and just noticing my surroundings properly, realising that I had been here before and was supposed to remember it and who these people were. It really does feel like I "wasn't there" for the bits I don't remember. The early memories are full of trying to work out from context where I am and what's going on, since I couldn't remember what went before this 'waking up' moment. 86.164.65.106 (talk) 17:55, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * What makes most sense to me is that babies do not individuate for quite some time. That is, they do not perceive themselves and the outside world (including their parents, siblings etc) as separate things, but all part of one whole.  It's only when this realisation finally occurs, and they get a sense of where their body ends and "other things" start, that memories of those things can be formed. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   12:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The term for the general condition is childhood amnesia, and there are many competing theories as to why it occurs. I don't think anyone has really nailed it. I suspect it will take a deeper understanding of the functioning of the infant brain to really make sense of it, and I don't think we're nearly there yet. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:58, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

no longer by boat
While I was in line at my local post office, a customer at a window wanted to send a padded envelope via surface mail to a country overseas. But the clerk told him that type of method, originally done by boat, isn't done anymore. Why is that?24.90.204.234 (talk) 22:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Where are you? The UK's Royal Mail still offers surface mail, as does Canada, I believe, but many other countries don't. (Leaving a bizarre scenario where you can send things by boat from UK to NZ, but  not back.) This is apparently due to decreased volumes/increased costs of sea shipments, and better/more competitive air options.  Having just googled a reference for this, I discover that WHAAOE: our article notes the USPS rationale: "On May 14, 2007, the United States Postal Service canceled all outgoing international surface mail (sometimes known as "sea mail") from the United States, citing increased costs and reduced demand due to competition from airmail services such as FedEx and UPS".  Gwinva (talk) 23:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * [See WP:WHAAOE. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2010 (UTC)]
 * Canada certainly does. I recently sent a small package "surface mail" to Australia. It took about 4 months to arrive. Bielle (talk) 01:40, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * But it did arrive. :) --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Canada has the choice for parcels but not for letter mail (which includes postcards, by the way). --Anon, 15:51 UTC, May 27, 2010.
 * A number of countries do have some sort of economy airmail (as a replacement?). E.g. NZ's Economy Air and Japan's SAL. Nil Einne (talk) 03:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)