Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 May 8

= May 8 =

English Democrats in Wales
Can anyone in Britain inform me why the English Democrats Party has run for the Welsh Assembly? 03:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Member (talk • contribs)
 * Probably, but the very first article you linked to unsurprisingly also can... (see the '#Welsh Assembly elections' section for starters) Nil Einne (talk) 06:53, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Monmouthshire was included within Wales for all administrative purposes after the 1970s, but this was contested by some - see Monmouthshire (historic) for more information. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Short Story Collection
I am looking for a short story collection, possibly edited by Isaac Asimov, or featuring one of his stories. The first story is about a man who awakens without any memory and is given a series of physical and mental tests. It turns out that scientists have been putting different personalities into his body in an effort to find the perfect one for interstellar travel. Any idea of the title/author? dlempa (talk) 04:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like Larry Niven's A World Out of Time, though that's a novel, not a short story collection. It's possible that an excerpt was published in one of Niven's collections. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:39, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The story "Rammer", which is the basis for the novel, is in A Hole in Space and Playgrounds of the Mind. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Although dlempa's memory of the story may be imperfect, it does not quite match "Rammer", in which (Spoiler Warning) the protagonist wakes up in another body (of a mindwiped criminal), but well remembers his past life prior to his having been cryogenically preserved. However, it's true that several other personalities/minds had previously been retrieved from "corpsicles" and had failed to measure up. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:19, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

"Rammer" was the one I was thinking of. I guess it wasn't connected with Isaac Asimov. Thanks all for the help! dlempa (talk) 18:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Classical buildings with asymmetric pediment
The picture at the top of shows a fictional building from the Pokémon franchise. What I like about it is the asymmetric pediment. Now, my question is not so much where the animators drew their inspiration from. (That would be one for the E desk.) What I want to know is if there are any (neo-)classical buildings, from before about 1800 AD, that have a similar asymmetry. I have never seen anything like this, and something tells me the Greeks would have abhorred this. Thank you in advance. 83.81.60.11 (talk) 07:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Is not the "asymmetrical pediment" a factory-style one sided clerestory? Such things are more a feature of modern gymnasiums than ancient temples-for one thing, you'd need very light and strong roofing materials. FiggyBee (talk) 11:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that appears more like a Clerestory then an asymetrical pediment. The whole fictional building smacks of Postmodernism with its clash of architectural styles. There is a strong Mannerist influence, and the roof line is very much in keeping with the  Constructvist movement. In total though, this clash of styles makes this building, if it was real, post modern ( the  corinthian colums in front not supporting anything also helps!).--Found5dollar (talk) 14:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Not that they would abhor it ... rather, these will simply not survive the time - vernacular oddities come and go unnoticed. As FiggyBee said, asymmetric roofing is quite a challenge structurally, so its use had to be limited to smaller buildings. East of Borschov (talk) 13:00, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oops, I hadn't thought of that. Indeed you might be able to build this today, but not two millennia ago, not on this scale. Well, I would have loved for someone to say: "Oh yeah, there's this 2nd century building a lot like this in Rome!", but that is not going to happen then. I agree with the other comments as well. I am going to mark this resolved, but if anyone has anything to add, please do so anyway. Thank you all. 83.81.60.233 (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC) (Yes, my IP address has changed, apparently.)

First French national anthem
While it's a known fact that La Marseillaise was composed in 1792, was there a prior national anthem sung in France during the Bourbon régime or was this the first?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Talking entirely off the top of my head - national anthems are quite a modern idea - God Save the King is often quoted as the first one. Its origins are disputed but it wasn't widely known before the 1745 Rebellion and I believe it was some years afterwards that began to be used in any official capacity. Therefore, I'd be surprised if the Kings of France had any music that would fit the modern idea of a national anthem.
 * Thanks. If La Marseillaise is indeed the first French national anthem the article should state this.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have since added to the La Marseillaise article that it was France's first ever anthem. Thank you again for your help.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone had added an uncited claim that the previous anthem was "Land of the Free". I very much doubt a monarchy would have such a theme song, plus I couldn't find anything about it in google. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This page gives more details about national anthems in France; La Marseillaise only being used from 1795-99 and from 1870 onwards. Napoleon apparently had no use for a national anthem (sorry Tchaikovsky - you got that bit wrong) and the restored French monarchy (1815-30) used "Le retour des Princes Français à Paris" and "Où peut-on être mieux qu'au sein de sa famille". Louis-Philippe (1830-1848) used "La Parisienne" and Napoleon III went for "Partant pour la Syrie" perhaps because it may have been written by his mum. I think the "Land of the Free" thing needs to go. I couldn't find anything on Google either, even when I tried to translate it into Franglais. Alansplodge (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That was actually in the National anthem article. It was posted by a one-shot who was just messing around with things. It be gone. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * .Going by the link Alansplodge provided, La Marseillaise was the first anthem in France, as well as the first European march style of anthem. I have added it to the article as well as the part about it having been adopted by the international revolutionary movement, including the Paris Commune in 1871.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * [outdent] Tangentially, Jacques Barzun noted that Rouget de Lille wrote the verses at the request of a mayor of a city that was not Marseilles, and had that city stuck, the song could have become known as the Strasbourgeoisie.

The Destruction of Bruchsal in 1945
I have a question regarding the Allied destruction of the city of Bruchsal in 1945.

It stems from information from Perry Biddiscombe in his book on the German partisan movement (Werwolf). According to Biddiscombe, in his section on Allied reprisals; U.S. combat troops destroyed the town of Bruchsal in retaliation for unclear SS activities.

The problem here is that apparently information on what happened to Bruchsal is confusing.


 * 1. The troops that occupied Bruchsal were French, as Biddiscombe himself notes in a separate paper on non-fraternisation where he notes that the French troops that moved in on April 2 1945 committed 600 rapes in the town.


 * 2. The wikipedia article itself on the town states that the town was destroyed and 1000 killed by Allied bombing on March 1, 1945, with the front-line only 20 km away. Apparently the bombing had no purpose, it was simply a retaliation for some peasants lynching an Allied aviator.


 * 3. Another source states that Buchenau (a city "suburb" of Bruchsal) was destroyed by American artillery fire on February 2, 1945.

Does anyone have info that could clear up exactly what Biddiscombe is referring to? Is it the U.S. artillery shelling that destroyed 80% of one part of the city on February 2, 1945. And what was the real reason behind the shelling in that case?

--Stor stark7 Speak 12:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I found the 1 March bombing mentioned in a number of different bomber group histories (example); they all say it was aimed at the marshalling yards and do not mention a reprisal motive.
 * According to the German wikipedia article on Büchenau, the 2/3 February destruction of Büchenau was from the air, the result of a failed RAF mission to bomb Karlsruhe. I found a mention of that mission here. --Cam (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea of Mankind waging war against God
I'm aware that this is a touchy subject. I'd like to make clear that I'm not making a point, or looking for a religious debate, or anything like that -- I'd just like to learn about the historical background of this idea.

The idea summed up is: If a vengeful God (such as described in the Old Testament) existed, the only rational choice for humankind would be to wage war against such a being.

I've bumped into this kind of reasoning in a couple of fictional narratives, the latest one being Dan Simmons' sci-fi novel 'Hyperion'. I'm kind of sure though, that this line of thought can be traced further back than a sci-fi novel. Is there a philosopher that this can be attributed to? Perhaps there's even an exact quote?

Thank you for your time :) 85.23.16.84 (talk) 14:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * You can find answers here and here. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * [The website http://www.watchtower.org/ is obsolete, but Wayback Machine has archives of Armageddon—A Catastrophic End? indexed at https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_01.htm, and archives of Armageddon—A Happy Beginning indexed at https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.watchtower.org/e/20051201/article_02.htm. Today the official website is http://www.jw.org, and those articles are at http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005880 and http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005881 respectively.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 17:39, 30 December 2014 (UTC)]
 * One could argue that Satanists wage war against God.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:49, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

What I'm really looking for is the source people like mr. Simmons used while writing his novel. While I admire Simmons as a writer, I doubt he personally came up with this idea. Nietzsche's writings did critique religion, and have influenced popular culture a bunch, perhaps that's as far as we can get? I don't know my philosophers very well, which is why I'm here. 85.23.16.84 (talk) 16:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The idea of waging war on God sounds like the plot line from Clash of the Titans. And since the God of Abraham is supposed to be all-powerful, it would be a little bit like a colony of ants trying to wage war on a lightning storm. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Or mortals waging war against Zeus.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * All things considered, the mortals' odds would be a lot better against Zeus than against "YHWH". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:46, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Good points, yet I still see this as more of a monotheistic religion thing. The whole idea is pretty much the ultimate expression of blasmephy: instead of speaking or rebelling against God, people unite with the purpose of utterly destroying him. This isn't nearly as radical an idea in a polytheistic religion -- there was no end to mortals pulling tricks on Zeus and the other gods of the Greek pantheon. Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I feel strongly compelled to apologise to the OP for the responses, most of which haven't even tried to be helpful. Don't worry - there are people who will try to help you find an answer - it just seems that they're not one of them (neither am I - because I know nothing about the subject). Vimescarrot (talk) 21:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. He cannot be defeated by any force in the universe. That's what I was trying to get at. Hope that clears things up for you. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc?
 * But that's completely and utterly irrelevant to the original question. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

carrots→ 22:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC) I have to say that God is not depicted as vengeful in the Old Testament. ╟─ Treasury Tag ►  constablewick  ─╢ 22:14, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you corroborate that assertion with specific references, TT? It seems contrary to the impression I, and most people I have discussed the matter with over the last 4 decades, have formed from reading the OT. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 22:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What sort of references do you want?! I linked to the page Judaism, which is a large religion of people who worship God solely based on the Old Testament. God is regarded as "One and indivisible, transcendent and immanent, Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Source of the Moral Law, a God of justice and mercy who demands that human beings shall practise justice and mercy in their dealings with one another." ╟─ Treasury Tag ►  most serene  ─╢ 08:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd hardly say that Judaism worships God solely based on the OT -- that would be Karaism.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 17:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * (I am the IP who posted this question) All right, I did kind of promise that I don't want a religious debate, but I can't resist responding to this. Sorry.


 * "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" Exodus 20:5


 * This seems rather vengeful, and is attributed to Lord Himself, no less. Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The "children suffer for their parents' sins" passage is revoked by God in Ezekiel 18:2-4 – "What do you mean by quoting this proverb, The fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge? As sure as I live, declares the Sovereign God, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel." I assume you forgot that bit!
 * There are also countless instances of God exercising mercy: Sodom and Gomorrah, the entire Book of Jonah, the final parts of the Book of Job... to name a few.
 * And I do hope you are not suggesting that Jews worship a vengeful and vicious God, because that is simply not the case. ╟─ Treasury Tag ►  Captain-Regent  ─╢ 09:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I see your point. I don't want to press this any further, this really isn't the appropriate forum for this kind of debate. Zigorney (talk) 09:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Any book of religion is ultimately scribed by mortals. Vengeful would ultimately be a human perception, no?  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА  ►talk 22:59, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The concept of humanity warring against God can be traced all the way back to the Bible, for example in Psalms 78:56 "But they put God to the test and rebelled against the Most High" and Psalms 107:11 "for they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High." Beyond that, I am not aware of any philosophers who advocated waging war against God; Nietsche's "God is dead, and we have killed him, you and I!" refers more to humanity having rejected the concept of a God, either to plunge into nihilism or to become an Übermensch. Like you, however, I am not that well versed in my philosophy so maybe someone else can give us some more info.

If we go to literature, you can look at Milton's Paradise Lost, and the Romantic movement was pretty heavily into the idea of Satan as a hero; you can read more about that here. Particularly relevant is the quote, "in "Cain", Lucifer teaches mankind to rebel against a tyranny that blocks happiness, just as he himself rebelled against God." Jean Boleyn is correct that there is a lot of warfare against God in Satanist thought as well. In more modern times, The Sandman features Lucifer heavily, and I think I read something a while back, perhaps in an Orson Scott Card novel, a passage about how God is a tyrant and it is perfectly logical to rebel against him.

So basically, there are vague hints of the thought process you are referring to scattered all throughout Western thought, and somewhere there is probably even an exact source, but I don't know where it is. Cheers, --Cerebellum (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think some of the posters here are confusing rebellion with warfare. Refusing to obey God's law is not warfare, it's rebellion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

(I am the IP who posted this question) Thanks for the answers so far! While it seems like there isn't a single person or an exact quote available, at least I have a bunch of new stuff to read :) Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The Japanese manga Neon Genesis Evangelion comes to mind after reading this discussion. --Belchman (talk) 10:22, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Evangelion (mecha). Hah, i'm glad we have japan. They know that including FIGHTING ROBOTS makes everything better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zigorney (talk • contribs) 10:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe an author seldom reveals the reason(s) for his or her idea(s), but you might wish to see the article Hyperion (Simmons novel).
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 13:59, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Zigorney, if you are genuinly interested in this subject as an academic study then; C.G. Jung's book, "Answer to Job", would be a must to read. However, do understand that the understanding of God in the Old Testament is very different to the understanding of God in the New.  Jung explores the notion of God in this context to understand better the relationship with God, from the standpoint of someone with a Christian background.  From Jung's further words and writings he took God and Jesus seriously.  The exact quotes would be legion, but you would need to read the whole book to get a clear understanding of Jung on this subject, and not to take him out of context.  Do understand that Jung is not a Scripture scholar and says so at the beginning of the book.  At the time of his writing of the book he got an immediate feed-back and made a life-long friend. MacOfJesus (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this pointer, I think you're on to something. In Simmons' novel, a character (the Scholar) has written a book called "The Abraham Problem". In the book he ponders the precieved injustice of God ordering Abraham to sacrifice his son, and how this affects the relationship between humankind and God. I think there are clear parallels to be drawn between this, and the Book of Job, and "Answer to Job" might very well be what Simmons is referencing here. Zigorney (talk) 09:34, 14 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I have written on the Article page: "Answer to Job" on the talk page placing in an "appraisal"  and on his life-long-friend:  Father Victor White, the article page; "the letters".  The Book of Job is unique here.  If you are serious in persuing this study, give me pointers here or on my talk page.   MacOfJesus (talk) 14:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)


 * C.G.Jung has a good article page. If you find the paragraph on Alcholocism and his treatment of Addicts you will find how deeply thinking and caring he was.  MacOfJesus (talk) 15:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Karaite attitude towards adoption
The Letter of the Karaite elders of Ascalon (c. 1100) mentions a Jew named Abu S'ad, 'Son of the Wife of the Tustari' as being held ransom by the Crusaders. S.D. Goitein believes the reason he is called this is because the wife of the Karaite religious commentator Sahl b. Fadl (Yashar b. Hesed) al-Tustari had been married prior to him and the son was the product of that union. The Tustari's were ungodly rich and had personal ties to the caliphs of Egypt, so the Crusaders were no doubt aware of this. My question is would Abu S'ad have been treated as a blood relative of the family? Could he have laid claim to the family wealth and prestige? All of this ties in with the ransom. Abu S'ad does not appear in any other letter from the Cairo Geniza, so his fate is unclear. This doesn't necessarily mean he died in that situation. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Karaites deny the validity of any Jewish oral tradition accompanying the written law of the Five Books of Moses. As such, there's no validity to the bloodline relationship of an adoptee.  In fact, you could probably figure out their laws yourself, as all they do is read the words literally and apply that as religious practice.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 03:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Size of the Forbidden City
It is the biggest palace in China that still stands today. But I was wondering how come the Ming Dynasty built the palace to be so small in comparison to the palaces Han Dynasty and Tang Dynasty. Weiyang Palace and Daming Palace was more than twice its size. How come, with the ambition that Yongle Emperor had, he didn't try to outdo his predecessors.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The Yongle Emperor article says the palace was moved (necessitating the construction of the Forbidden City) for military reasons. Perhaps a smaller compound was considered more easily defended? Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Helping poor students
What educational programs are available to help undernourished children of poor parents who are too busy to spend enough time helping them with their life skills and schoolwork and too poor to afford tutoring? -- Wavelength (talk) 19:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe Boys and Girls Club? Their web site is here.  Dismas |(talk) 19:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There are lots of programs for such children, but you will need to specify the location you are interested in if we're going to be able to name the relevant ones. I'm guessing you are talking about somewhere in the developing world, since undernourishment isn't really part of poverty in the modern developed world. --Tango (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I am interested in all locations, including those in developed countries such as the US. Please see Poverty in the United States and the outline Hunger, malnutrition, and poverty in the contemporary United States: Some observations on their social and cultural context.  (By the way, I found the article School Breakfast Program.) -- Wavelength (talk) 21:00, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Over Half of Teachers Report Buying Hungry Students Food With Their Own Money. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Other general articles you might read: After-school activity, No Child Left Behind Act (U.S.), Bursary, Scholarship, Child Nutrition Act (U.S.), Student financial aid, School meal, Community centre. I believe in practice the programs available differ widely by country and even by city. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for those links. I just found the article Share Our Strength. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:00, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I found Share Our Strength Latest News - Nat'l Teacher Survey Shows Many Children Too Hungry to Learn.
 * -- Wavelength (talk) 02:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Was Tiberius a vegetarian?
Was Tiberius a vegetarian? Did he drink wine or hard alcoholic type drinks? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 19:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * He certainly drank wine and was actually considered a heavy drinker. According to Suetonius,
 * "Even at the outset of his military career his excessive love of wine gave him the name of Biberius, instead of Tiberius, Caldius for Claudius, and Mero for Nero [Biberius Caldius Mero meaning roughly "mulled wine drinker"]. Later, when emperor and at the very time that he was busy correcting the public morals, he spent a night and two whole days feasting and drinking with Pomponius Flaccus and Lucius Piso, immediately afterwards making the one governor of the province of Syria and the other prefect of the city, and even declaring in their commissions that they were the most agreeable of friends, who could always be counted on. (...) He gave a very obscure candidate for the quaestorship preference over men of the noblest families, because at the emperor's challenge he had drained an amphora of wine at a banquet."


 * — Kpalion(talk) 19:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * If by "hard alcoholic type drinks" you mean distilled spirits, they didn't exist in Roman times. The standard Roman drink was (watered-down) wine.  I've never heard of Tiberius being a vegetarian; perhaps you'd get better answers if you told us the reason for the question. FiggyBee (talk) 20:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Although watered-down wine was the standard drink, Tiberius seems to have prefered undiluted wine, which may have reinforced his reputation as a wino. Here's another quote from Suetonius: "now 'tis for blood he is thirsting; this he as greedily quaffs as before wine without water [Latin: merum]." — Kpalion(talk) 22:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Mostly just curious. Also in all the bust images of him it appears he shaved and did not grow a beard. Looks like he had good hygiene. Would that be good assumptions? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, let me put it another way; what makes you think Tiberius may have been a vegetarian? As for being clean-shaven, it was the fashion of the time.  You'll find very few if any Roman busts, statues or portraits of the early Empire with beards or long hair. FiggyBee (talk) 21:19, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, see Beard. That fact tells you nothing about his personal hygiene. You can find out about hygiene in Roman civilization in general at Hygiene. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Tiberius as a vegetarian was 50-50 guess. Thanks gentlemen for your answers.  --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 21:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's unlikely that Tiberius was a vegetarian. This source discusses how Seneca, a contemporary of Tiberius, was a vegetarian, but had to stop out of worries of falling out with the emporer. It says that during Tiberius's persecution of Christians, one of the criteria the emporer began to use to "prove" someone was a Christian was vegetarianism. So it doesn't seem likely Tiberius was one himself. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You really want to get "Diet on Capri" by Ronald Syme. I think the point he makes is that Tiberius was so paranoid about poisoning he became practically self-sufficient on Capri and therefore pretty much vegetarian. As Pliny the Elder, relates he really liked Cucumber.  meltBanana  03:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * WikiJedits, Tiberius never even HEARD of the Christians, much less persecuted them. In fact, generally, the biggest Roman-Empire-era persecutors of Christians were OTHER CHRISTIANS.  Same or similar substance, etc. ... kill kill kill!  What a loving bunch. 63.17.58.144 (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)