Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 September 30

= September 30 =

Polygamy in Jamaica
Is polygamy legal or illegal in Jamaica? Is polygamy a common thing in Jamaica? 99.245.73.51 (talk) 02:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * According to Legal status of polygamy, the map at the top has Jamaica colored orange, which means that it is illegal there. -- Jayron  32  04:16, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * ...which is, of course, a different matter than its frequency. If by "polygamy" you mean not only legal marriage but long-term partnerships, that is entirely another question, and much more difficult to get hard information about. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Acceptance of pedophilia
Oh boy...so I got into an argument with a friend the other day about the acceptance of pedophilia. Her argument was that pedophilia will be accepted in the future, much as couples of mixed races or of the same sex were once not tolerated in the west but now are; I think the two are extremely different and that human nature is more involved. What would my fellow wikipedians say about this? (And I'm not trying to start fights or be vulgar or anything)  ? EVAUNIT 神になった人間 04:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems very unlikely for it to be "accepted" any time soon in the way your friend describes. You might want to consider some of the history of it, though.  Wiki Dao  &#9775;  (talk)  05:02, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * One thing to consider is that, while the age of consent has changed at various times throughout history, it has always been accepted in nearly all cultures at nearly all times that there is some age at which children are too young to participate in sexual activity. Not to be gross, but while we can debate whether or not, depending on cultural context, 14 or 15 may be too young for sexual activity, what about a 3 year old?  Seriously, confusing the difference between whether or not consenting adults can mutually agree to have a sexual relation with each other and whether an adult can introduce sexual activity to a child too young to know what the heck is going on?  That is a problem.  No, pedophillia is never going to be acceptable.  -- Jayron  32  05:14, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. Note that in your two examples (mixed-race and same-sex relationships between consenting adults), there is no psychological/developmental harm done to either party due to the nature of the relationship itself. and I wonder if this section should be "closed" before it gets too out-of-control...?  Wiki Dao  &#9775;  (talk)  05:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTCRYSTAL. This isn't a place to speculate aimlessly. But I will note that the links already given above make it clear that it is not "human nature" that stops the behavior; humans have at various points in history found it totally within their nature to find it socially acceptable. Current cultural/social/legal outlooks in the West frame it as an issue of consent. We don't really know how it will look at it in the future. It could change, it might not. Sexual mores are not static in the slightest. There certainly is a sizable (though hard to estimate) population of pedophiles which makes it hard to suggest that it will somehow just go away or is otherwise "unnatural." That doesn't mean that society will accept it in any large way, though. I'm not sure there's much beyond that than giving of opinions. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:34, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * You may want to check out Child Sexuality. There some taboos about child sexuality that society could probably survive just fine without (for better or worse), but (as that article makes clear) child sexuality is fundamentally different than adult sexuality. It's difficult to imagine that it will ever be acceptable to pretend it isn't. APL (talk) 01:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Question on source
Hi. I am not sure where to ask this question, and I hope I asked in the right place. There was an addition to Columbia writing professor Janette Turner Hospital's wikipedia page because of an article on the Gawker website that listed her as "The World's Haughtiest Professor." I guess... it just doesn't sound very nice to do to someone. It was just ammended today, apparently, and the wikipedia article's sentence acts like it has happened in the past. Is Gawker really that credible of a resource to list an article like that? It just to me, seems very cruel. I think this professor's email did come from a place of wanting to better her former USC students and from the excitement of her new place. Several other people (on the Gawker comments page) have also wondered if the wikipedia reference is a little "scary."

I apologize if I am asking this in the wrong place. If anyone can can explain to me how or if that edit was fair and why, I would be grateful. I can't quite put my finger on it, but something about the way it is written seems a "off". Thank you for your time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.71.19.247 (talk) 06:03, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey, no problem. You are likely to get a better response if you post the question to the "talk page" of the article in question, just use the "discussion" tab when you are viewing the article to access the talk page.  If you think this needs more attention, then perhaps the Reliable sources/Noticeboard is a better place to ask, since it was specifically set up to discuss issues of source reliability. -- Jayron  32  06:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Jayron. I will try to copy and paste this in the places that you said! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.71.19.247 (talk) 06:13, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Geography/History Question
I am looking for the preserved building (heritage building) which was residence (at different times) of

1. Beloved leader 2. A well-known poet 3. College Professor

I failed to get the info from wikipedia/Google searches I would appreciate any help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.12.38.92 (talk) 06:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * What geographic region are we talking about here? I assume this is an important structure, but we'd need to know where this is about to narrow it down for you.  -- Jayron  32  06:19, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure but the region is historically very significant (in World history)
 * It's not exactly official policy, and this particular one is history now, but we are not here to help people with the WorldAtlas geography quiz. You are meant to find the answer on your own.--Rallette (talk) 10:16, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the Château de Chillon incarcerated a poet and a politician. I expect it's probably not the right answer, but I also think you might well be looking for a prison.-- WORM  MЯOW  10:46, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Here are some more clues ....]--Aspro (talk) 10:57, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And they had a winner! Longfellow National Historic Site Wiki Dao  &#9775;  (talk)  11:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, I never knew George Washington was referred to as "Beloved Leader". TomorrowTime (talk) 13:47, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * North America is Best America!--Saddhiyama (talk) 18:33, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Is Feminism and Misandry one and the same thing ?
Is Feminism and Misandry one and same thing ? I am sure no. Then why our article on Feminism automatically directs to same thing. Click Feminist or Feminism you get to Misandry. ?  Jon Ascton    (talk)  06:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Vandalism. I am cleaning it up now.  -- Jayron  32  06:35, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

MEPs affecting who can become president of Hungary?
According to his article, Péter Bárándy "was nominated to the position of President of Hungary, but he stepped back because only few MEPs supported him". Do Hungary's MEPs have more authority than ordinary citizens in choosing the president? I tried to check President of Hungary, but it's a redirect to List of heads of state of Hungary, which says nothing about how any leaders are chosen. Assuming, by the way, that "MEP" is Member of the European Parliament; please correct me if applicable. Nyttend (talk) 11:57, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Elections in Hungary doesn't help much either - it says "Presidential election in Hungary are not elected by the general public but by deputies" (a statement that's not well written and not referenced either, and is quite rightly tagged as needing expansion). Astronaut (talk) 12:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * He's elected by Parliament - see The Constitution on Wikisource. Nothing about MEP's having any formal rôle, but a president would surely want to have broad support from others who also represent his country abroad. DuncanHill (talk) 13:00, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Ayodhya Verdict
Dear reader,

I am a bit confused about the Ramjanmabhoomi case which is going on. I had a query that what was the monument or religious structure which existed there in the first place? Was it like first there was a temple then the Muslims demolished it and made a mosque? Or maybe there was a Mosque and the Hindus erected a temple by demolishing it and again the temple was demolished to erect a Mosque? I am sorry if I am writing in a confusing manner but I have deep queries about the Ayodhya Verdict and the Ramjanmabhoomi case. Please include links and other site also if you can as it will be of much help. Thank you very much in anticipation. sgtmalaypandit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sgtmalaypandit (talk • contribs) 13:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't claim to know the subject, but we do have an article: Ayodhya debate, and it seems to be long and well sourced. Does that help? TomorrowTime (talk) 13:54, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Alternate names for the Kingdoms of England and France in fiction. Any suggestions?
Anyone here who shares my interest for High-fantasy and Medieval europe, and perhaps literature as well? Fantasy, if in any way unclear mean elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, trolls and wizards, and so on. A world much like that of Lord of the Rings.

Ambitiously, I've been playing around for a long while with the idea of mixing fantasy and medieval europe together in a fictional world, and things have eventually started to take shape. There's been a lot of creating of nations, world-terrain and history etc. which must be completed before I can focus fully on the writing of the novel(s?) itself. This is slow and detailed work, but also very rewarding. I'm taking the most important and interesting nations from the high medieval period in Europe, such as England, France, Castile, Aragon, Leon, Portugal and creating fictional nations based on those and their cultures, and occasionally parts of their history. But I cannot/won't use the real names of nations and cities so I have come a long way in making my own nations, cities and terrain but I'm not entirely done yet.

Coming up with alternate names for the nations resembling France and England have proven extremely difficult. So I was thinking I have nothing to loose by asking you fellow wikipedians for suggestions. What could be good alternate names for England and France without these names becoming too similar to the original names?? Remember that the names still have to sound English and French respectively.

I will be grateful for any suggestions, should you have any :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krikkert7 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Krikkert7 (talk) 13:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I suppose Albion for England would be too clichéd? TomorrowTime (talk) 13:50, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * You might find inspiration from the names of some of the super- and sub-continental masses given to the area in deep prehistory. Much of what's now England was once the subcontinental mass of Avalonia, although Scotland came from Laurentia and some of the North Sea from Baltica; try poking around in those articles and the related ones linked from them. Indeed, you might find in geology a wealth of ideas. For example, the Conan-esque comic series Sláine was set in (what's now) Britain and Ireland during the Pleistocene glaciation (I think near its end) - the resulting lower sea level gave the authors a chance to have an Ireland that was vagely familiar (whereas Avalonia was so long ago and everything so different it might as well be anywhere on Earth) but opened up huge dank wetlands between the islands, giving the authors endless scope for tulgy mires and rum henges, without people having worry about whether the The Lord Weird Slough Feg's unwholesome fortress is now a shopping centre in Cork, where red-haired maidens were sacrificed in what is now the car park behind Argos. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 14:14, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * You might find Category:Mythological islands to be fertile ground too; don't worry if they're "in" the wrong oceans now - what use is an evil wizard if he can't move the odd island around?  I'd also recommend Robert Bartlett's Inside the Medieval Mind (particularly the "Knowledge" episode, which I imagine you'll find on YouTube) - the crazy stuff people believed (the dog-heads, the sky-bloke climbing down the anchor chain into the graveyard) is almost Swiftian in its inventiveness. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 14:23, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

thanks for replies. Albion isn't all bad, but it's more of a place-name IN england rather than actually being a name to replace the name england. But thanks. keep em coming if you have any ;) i've found a decent name for England through the other replies, although i will keep looking for more. But I'm still very much blank when it comes to france. I've tried to bend the word France in every possible way, and tried completely different things as well but it just dont get right. So, France anyone? :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krikkert7 (talk • contribs) 14:53, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Krikkert7 (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The Breton name for France is Bro-C'hall (actually Breton for "Gaul", see also name of France). ---Sluzzelin talk  15:18, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Take names for (historic) parts of France and apply them to the whole. Aquitaine, Occitania, Auvergne, Septimania. Or stick with good Latin Gallia or Celtica. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:24, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Albion isn't a place name in England, it's the oldest known name given to the island of Great Britain (maybe 6th Century BC). In Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae, Brutus of Troy arrived in Albion and evicted the giants who were the sitting tennants - his chum Corineus threw one of them over a cliff - and renamed the island after himself (allegedly). It's a really good read if you're into fantasy (there's a very readable Penguin edition) but it was seriously regarded as historical fact before the 17th Century. Another old name for England which Geoffrey and C. S. Lewis use is Logres or Lloegyr; Lloegr is England in the modern Welsh language. The Cornish language name for England is Pow Sows; it literally means "Saxon Country". The old name for Brittany (also used by Geoffrey) is Armorica. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * To get an idea what some other authors chose, see also Istanbul Not Constantinople". For France, there are several examples of Gallia, but also Bretonnia, Mérovence, Montaigne, and Terre d'Ange

I didn't say Albion was a place in england, i just meant to say it had more the SOUND of a place-name in england. probably because there are many places called Albion in other english-speaking countries, and if there had been a place in england called Albion i would not have been surprised. But I actually did not know Albion was a former name used for england. I looked it up and you were right, of course :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Krikkert7 (talk • contribs) 17:32, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Krikkert7 (talk) 17:32, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Do any of the names of the Heptarchy work for you? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:00, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Or how about Deira or Bernicia? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * How about New Jerusalem? DuncanHill (talk) 01:07, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of the ones I've read in the past include: Albion (Michael Pryor), Avalon (Stephen Lawhead), Brittania, Prydain (Stephen Lawhead again, among others), Ancelstierre (Garth Nix), Araluen (John Flanagan's Ranger's Apprentice), Alba (though this more often refers to Scotland, I believe). You might also wish to look at the names of the Celtic tribes that the Romans recorded in Britain in the early CE, for example, the Icenii, among whose number is Boadicea/Boudicca. Or there's the Germanic Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, etc., which could lead to names like Saxanglonia, etc. Wessex is a good candidate for an expanded kingdom, given that they were a dominant cultural force in Dark Ages Britain. Tolkien's Rohan is very Anglo-Saxon era English - their language is the same as Old English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steewi (talk • contribs) 01:17, 1 October 2010
 * And Albania is an alternate name for Alba. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:22, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Island of the Lion. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:14, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * WRT France, some of the names it's had in the past or in other languages include: France, the Frankish lands, Frankreich, Gaul, Gallia, Isle de France (on analogy with the island in Paris), Langue d'Oil (by analogy with their pronunciation of the word for "yes"), Transalpine Gaul (which could be shortened to Transalpinia or Trasalpine. In a different direction, it was not unusual to name a whole area after a smaller piece of land that was the centre, so something off Paris (which was also Lutetia) might work; or after a person, Louis is a common one, but primarily post-medieval. Charlemagnia is a possibility. Perhaps reading through History of France deliberately looking for appropriate names might be helpful. Steewi (talk) 01:23, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Anglia for England. East Anglia is the present name for the estern part, but there is currently no West, North, or South Anglia. 92.28.242.150 (talk) 10:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That reminds me of an old joke. Everyone knows of places like Sussex (land of the South Saxons) and Essex (East Saxons) and Wessex (West Saxons).  Rumor has it the North Saxons were celebate which is why they died out so quickly (figure it out)... -- Jayron  32  01:35, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

International Court of Justice advisory opinion on Kosovo's declaration of independence
Why did the countries speak in French alphabetical order? English is the UN's official language, so wouldn't it have made more sense for them to speak in the English order? --J4\/4 &lt;talk&gt; 15:17, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * English is not the UN's only official language - the United Nations article lists all six, which includes French. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 15:29, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * But why did they choose French over one of their other official languages? --J4\/4 &lt;talk&gt; 15:39, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * They don't always conduct their meetings in English. Sometimes they mix it up for political reasons.  I can't find the cite, but I recall reading that at least once they held a meeting in a non-english language just so they could mix up the seating arraignment and put the USA with the "E"s and not the "U"s. This may be an urban legend, however. (I would have expected such an anecdote to appear in Official languages of the United Nations) APL (talk) 16:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Until relatively recently, French was the customary language of international diplomacy. The Almanach de Gotha was in French for that reason, and for the same reason when it was revived recently it changed to being in English. Sam Blacketer (talk) 16:19, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * To Sam Blacketer's point, our pretty lengthy article Lingua franca is good reading. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

famous examples of parents who abused or neglected their children?
like fritzl? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.219.178 (talk) 16:43, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Joan Crawford ?


 * Fred and Rosemary West. Alansplodge (talk) 16:56, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The four abandoned children of Sugamo. TomorrowTime (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Instead of focusing on the negative, why don't we look those parents, by who actions, ensured that their children really achieved something. Something that is ensures they are  remembered down thought the next generation.  Cough, cough! See a pattern?--Aspro (talk) 20:29, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Joan Crawford, see Mommy Dearest (c.f. "no more wire hangers!") -- Jayron  32  03:35, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The US pinko scientist who developed the atomic bomb, J. Robert Oppenheimer, wanted to give his children up for adoption, per a TV miniseries. Einstein had a child, Lieserl Einstein, which he totally ignored and neglected, and we don't even know when she died. Stalin was not known to be a good father. Edison (talk) 03:40, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Henry VIII of England. He not only declared both his daughters Mary and Elizabeth illegitimate, but at one stage he had even threatened to execute Mary for her failure to recognise him as Supreme Head of the Church of England.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Henry's contemporary Ivan the Terrible, Tsar of Russia, murdered at least one of his own children in a fit of rage. He may have been mentally ill, not that that excuses it.  --  202.142.129.66 (talk) 05:22, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Edison - while WP:BLP doesn't directly apply as the subjects of your comments are deceased you should think before slinging terms like "pinko" and wild accusations around. There's nothing in the Oppenheimer article to suggest that happened and a TV series is hardly the best source for this kind of information. We don't know and probably never will know the exact history of Lieserl Einstein. Only Stalin can reliably be cited as a bad parent based on his article. Exxolon (talk) 19:28, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Akihabara massacre
Does anybody know what happened to Tomohiro Kato?, it says he was indicted in 2008, for the June 2008 massacre, but his trial? nothing else was known about. Thanks. --190.178.174.205 (talk) 22:45, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * He is still on trial. See and .Oda Mari (talk) 04:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

SAT essay writing
Hey guys. I'm taking the SAT in about 2 weeks. The section I'm practicing last-minute is the essay section. I'm doing about 1-2 practice every week for the past month or so. Are there any tips (general or specific) you can give (other than practice)? I mean like, styles of writing, how I should build my argument, what kinds of exampls I should use, that kind of thing, to help me make a few last-minute improvements to my essay? Also, what would be the best course of action if I need to write about a topic that I absolutely have no position on (something that really bores me- the SAT essays are usually pretty interesting I'm told but just in case I'm unlucky ;) or that I can't think of any examples about? Many thanks. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 23:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Good general advice for this type of essay writing is to focus on structuring your argument. In the first paragraph, introduce your topic and clearly state your position.  In the next two to three paragraphs, use examples from history, literature, etc to support your argument.  Each example should be its own paragraph.  Finally, include a concluding paragraph that sums up your argument and restates your original position.  While this is admittedly a very simple way to structure your essay, it is very effective, and the essay graders want to see above all that you can present an argument in a logical fashion.  Best of luck.  --GreatManTheory (talk) 02:13, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Consider the grader. Some college assistant professor or graduate student will have to plow through a hundred dreadful essays. Learn what the grading criteria are and make it easy for them to award many points to your effort. Do not fill the essay with grammatical errors and bad syntax. It sounds like you are very well prepared so do not panic; just jump in and do the same effort you have done on your practice essays. I got a great essay score with less preparation than it sounds like you have done. If you know nothing whatever about the topic, then just tap dance, using clues from the question, while avoiding exposing your ignorance.  I recall tap dancing successfully through an essay question about the "Fin de siècle" without a clue that it referred to the end of the 19th century rather than the end of some unspecified cycle, and the "martyrdom of Polycarp," without knowing why the  person being killed sounded like several fish. Edison (talk) 03:32, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * A very reliable colleague of mine recently told me that he had read a study that basically established a pretty linear relationship between the length of the essay and the final score. Googling around, I suspect he was talking about this story from 2005, and this study. I don't know if this still holds or not. It might be worth looking into. It signals, of course, a very poor grading rubric, but hey, gaming the SATs is an entire unfortunate industry. It is worth remember that the SAT is a very specific test, and finding out exactly what you will be graded on is the only sane strategy. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:45, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If you can answer practice-test essay questions (in eg. ) to your own satisfaction, you should be all set. Good luck! :)  Wiki Dao  &#9775;  (talk)  11:56, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * What? "To your own satisfaction" doesn't mean a thing. It's to the satisfaction of the grader. A good answer for him might be a ridiculously bad answer to the grader. The whole trick of it is figuring out what the graders want. That's the whole point of test prep. I might find 5+5=8 to be a perfectly satisfying answer, but it's not going to get me a good score! Unlike the multiple choice answers, the essay test isn't something you can test yourself on and say, "oh, I would have gotten a 9, that's great," because the grading of it is far more subjective. Writing lots of samples by yourself is no recipe for anything without knowing what a grader wants. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:17, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Without a grader to write for, you have only yourself to write for. You don't get to write for a grader until you take the test.  By the time you find out what the grader wanted, it's too late.  When you have practiced enough to satisfy your own standards of quality sufficiently and in accordance with your understanding of the information and tips about the test given to you in the the test-prep, you are ready for the test.  If you find believing 5+5=8 to be personally satisfying, you are ready to do poorly on the test.  But what else could being "ready for the test" be...?  Wiki Dao  &#9775;  (talk)  02:43, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Extra tip: graders tend to respond positively to humor, unless it is poorly executed, in which case they don't. ;) Wiki Dao  &#9775;  (talk)  03:04, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Trial of adolescents as adults
What are some arguments which have been made in support of the idea that adolescents should be tried as adults, either in certain situations or in general? Also, what arguments are commonly made against this position? Citations would be appreciated in both cases. --99.251.211.17 (talk) 23:16, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Some relevant terms: Defense of infancy, Age of majority, Minor (law), Juvenile court, and of course Minors detained in the global war on terror.Smallman12q (talk) 01:25, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Motto of the Netherlands
Why is the Netherlands's official motto in French instead of Dutch? --70.245.189.11 (talk) 23:42, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The Principality of Orange from which the House of Orange takes its name was in France... AnonMoos (talk) 00:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * As AnonMoos says, this was the motto of the House of Orange, which originated partly in France. However, the dynasty was also partly German.  Until the 20th century, the common language of the European aristocracy, regardless of the country where they resided, was French, and aristocratic family mottos were invariably in French.  Furthermore, when the Netherlands adopted this motto, in 1815, it controlled what is today Belgium, whose elite spoke French.  The use of a French motto was probably partly intended to win the loyalty of the country's southern elites.  Marco polo (talk) 20:36, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Anyway, the Prince of Wales has a German motto: Ich Dien... AnonMoos (talk) 23:11, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

CEGEP Curriculum
Hello. Where can I find the CEGEP curriculum standardized across Quebec for second-year Calculus (university level for Science students)? Thank you in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 23:55, 30 September 2010 (UTC)