Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 April 1

= April 1 =

Famous "pointing at celebrity" photo?
There's a famous photo that has someone standing next to a celebrity, pointing at them and grinning. I've seen references to this photo a million times, but I don't know what the original is! Here are two such references: 1 2 All my friends think I'm crazy and that there is no original photo with this pose. I think there must be. Help me out? -- ✶♏✶ 00:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * The first picture I thought of after looking at your links was Lynndie England. There's also Elvis & Nixon; it looks like the King is pointing, but it's just his belt buckle.  --some jerk on the Internet    (talk)  04:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * This has to be an old gesture. I recall this is something that Regis Philbin used to do with guests on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?, although a bit more gently than in these pics. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:52, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I would say that it would have to be a pretty old and iconic (and family-friendly) to be paid homage in a Disney movie... 99.245.16.5 (talk) 07:38, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes. It might be ancient. Think of old-style advertising where someone is wearing a big grin and pointing to something that they want you to pay attention to. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * There is a very iconic feel to the pose. It seems like one would say "this guy here, this is the guy" while making it, and as a matter of fact, a GIS for that very phrase yields these charming lads.  Doesn't get us closer to an original, though.  I also tried splitting the phrases in the image search.  No better luck there.  Nor did "I'm with this guy" or "I'm with him/her" paired with smile, grin, point.  So at least I know a few blind alleys now.  --some jerk on the Internet    (talk)  12:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you think this is an arguable thesis? (The Sun Also Rises)
So I'm writing a major paper for my junior Am. Lit class and just found out I have to do a last-minute thesis switch for my paper on The Sun Also Rises because someone else is doing the same topic that I chose to write about. I like the idea of arguing that Brett is the only thing preventing Jake from becoming a code hero. Don't worry, I'm not asking you to write my essay for me! I'm just wondering if you think that (a) it's true, and (b) I would be able to argue this for 4 or so pages. In particular, I'm thinking about Jake's reckless behaviour around Brett (especially betraying his aficion), and his rational behaviour dealing with everything else (e.g., when Cohn wants to run off to S. America, he is being a typical Hemingway hero, while Jake's advice is that of a code hero). What do you think? I'm kind of panicking right about now, and so I'm not sure if I'm thinking clearly or not. Who knows? I could be completely wrong...

Oh, I should clarify: Most people use "Hemingway hero" and "code hero" interchangeably; however, my teacher defines a code hero as one who "backs his play then makes it" and a Hemingway hero as one who "makes his play then backs it" (like Cohn wanting to go to S. America but not considering the consequences or Jake introducing Brett to Romero without considering the consequences). — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 02:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Jews or... Proto-Jews?
Is it correct to refer to Hebrews who lived before the Assyrian exile as Jews (as is done here, for example)? The word "Jew" is derived from the tribe and/or kingdom of Judah, so to me it seems anachronistic to apply it to the pre-exile Hebrews as a whole. On the one hand, we have precedent for giving people names that they didn't use themselves (e.g. the Byzantine Empire); there was, for the surviving tribes, no fundamental religious or ethnic cleaveage as a result of the exile; and antisemites would surely try to exploit the semantic notion that Abraham and Moses weren't Jews; but nonetheless, there is the fact that they wouldn't have self-identified as Yehudim. Has there been any discussion of this question anywhere? --140.232.183.234 (talk) 04:36, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Just a comment on the term "pre-Jew". That could mean "whoever came before Jews", including people of completely different religions and ethnicities.  Perhaps "proto-Jew" would be more in line with your intention. StuRat (talk) 04:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * (Note that the title has now been changed). StuRat (talk) 04:59, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * 140.232.183.234 -- All the ancient languages had only one word (Hebrew יהודי, Greek Ιουδαιος, Latin Judaeus etc.) to express three separate meanings: 1] A "Judahite" or member of the tribe of Judah by genealogical descent. 2] A "Judean" or inhabitant of the region of Judea (or before 586 BC, an inhabitant of the southern kingdom of Judah). 3] A "Jew", or member of the distinctive monotheistic religion which was associated with Judeans.  Note that the kingdom of Judah included Benjaminites, Levites, presumably the remnants of Simeonites, and scattered members of other tribes (not only Judahites).  After the reforms of Hezekiah or Josiah (and the fall of the northern kingdom), anyone who accepted the leadership of the Jerusalem authorities was effectively a "Jew", regardless of tribal affiliation.  By the time of the Book of Esther, there's even a Hebrew derived verb participle mityahed "becoming Jewish".  If you consider the term "Jew" to be anachronistic for the pre-7th-century-BC period, then the accepted alternative term is "Israelite"... AnonMoos (talk) 06:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * An interesting comparison to the Jews and Judaism is the Samaritans; after Samaria, the capital of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. Post-exile, the two groups formed distinct ethnic and religious groups; though both descend directly from the pre-exile Israelite people.  The Samaritans are basically the descendants of the people of the Northern Kingdom in the same way that the Jews are the descendants of the people of the Southern Kingdom.  For various reasons, the Samaritan people are a much diminished group and have not been as historically recognized as the Jews, in Roman Empire times their population rivaled that of the Jews; today there are less than 1000 still extant.  -- Jayron  32  14:23, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * In the Persian and Hellenistic periods (before the militantly anti-Samaritan Maccabees conquered the north) the numbers of Samaritans and Jews in the southern Levant may have been roughly comparable, but I don't think that the total numbers of Samaritans rivaled the total numbers of Jews (i.e. both in Judea and elsewhere). AnonMoos (talk) 16:03, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with AnonMoos that the correct word for the ancestors of the Jews is Israelites. Marco polo (talk) 17:28, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Abraham is usually considered "the first Jew," meaning the first person to practice the religion that would come to be known as Judaism. It is true that the word "Y'hudi" did not become prominent, as far as we know, until the Persian period. However, that does not mean that the Israelites of the pre-exilic period were not "Jews." Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman probably didn't refer to themselves as "African-Americans," but that doesn't mean they weren't. That said, it might be more appropriate to call the Jews of the pre-exilic period "Israelites" or "Hebrews," especially if referring to the period of the divided monarchy. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:19, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, Mwalcoff, but that's an exaggeration perpetuated by Chazal to amplify and magnify the stories in Genesis and to allow people to better relate. It doesn't make for good stories when Abraham didn't keep any of the laws.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 05:34, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Song without a chorus
Is there a term for a song that doesn't have a chorus? I'm thinking of rock or pop music in particular. Comet Tuttle (talk) 06:11, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The structure is often called the AAA-form or AAA-song-form. (As opposed to AABA etc).  ---Sluzzelin  talk  06:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * And see strophic form. ---Sluzzelin talk  06:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Which parts/cities of China or Taiwan will have the lowest cost of living?
I was told that the SSI payment of $674/month is the salary of a middle school teacher in China. However, apartment prices may vary wildly between Beijing and Wuxi. Which cities in China or Taiwan will have at least 50,000 people, but the lowest costs of living in the nation? As I'm taking Chinese language classes now, I hope to escape to China to run away from the inevitable student loan payments and invest in any kind of online business that'll give enough of a ROI to finally enable me to pay off all debts, domestic and international. Thank you kindly. --70.179.169.115 (talk) 09:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice, run off and leave the taxpayers with the bill. I will not be party to conspiracy to commit fraud.  Googlemeister (talk) 13:14, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ditto --Reference Desker (talk) 14:26, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's generally a good idea to avoid tipping people off when you're planning a scheme like this. Qrsdogg (talk) 15:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, the refdesk strongly disapproves of people who want to pay off all their debts! Had you said you did not intend to pay off your debts, then Googlemeister, Reference Desker and Qrsdogg would have helped you. DuncanHill (talk) 16:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Duncan, in both cases he/she is defaulting on loan payments. Making up for it later, while it might be better then never paying it back, would still be tantamount to robbing a bank, investing the $$$, and then giving the bank it's money back a couple years later so you can keep the gains.  I think the FBI would not be a fan even though you gave the $ back later.  Googlemeister (talk) 16:18, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * All I'm saying is, think about what the consequences would be if the Cyber Police backtrace you... Qrsdogg (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right, banks don't usually take out loans they likely can't repay with the intent of defaulting on them. That's because they can count on the taxpayers to bail them out as soon as they threaten to default.  Since that is moral, how can this scheme be immoral? Wnt (talk) 12:26, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You are the first person I have ever heard who thought that action was moral. Googlemeister (talk) 13:46, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Folks, I was once in the situation of being unable to make student loan payments because my income was insufficient to cover my subsistence needs plus the loan payments. I went into temporary default until I could raise my income enough to pay off the debt, which I did.  So I will spare the questioner from moralistic and judgmental remarks and point out that the cost of living is generally lower in mainland China than anywhere in Taiwan.  Furthermore, in general, the cost of living is lower the further you move from the coast of China and the further you are from a large city.  China has thousands of cities of over 50,000 people, so it would be unwieldy to provide a list here. In fact, Chinese cities with populations under 100,000 tend not to even have articles on Wikipedia. This site compares consumption expenditures (a proxy for cost of living) in China's provinces.  As you can see, the provinces with the lowest costs are Heilongjiang, Guizhou, and Gansu. You might consider a smaller city such as Liupanshui or Tieli, for example, but with research, you could identify dozens of locations in these provinces alone.  Marco polo (talk) 16:38, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thinking about your issue some more, however, I have the following observation: Is China really the best location for an online business? The Great Firewall of China could impede internet communication between China and the rest of the world, particularly during times of political tension or crisis. Unless your goal is to try to tap the Chinese market, maybe you'd want to consider another low-cost venue with greater freedom of expression, such as India (where English is widely understood).  Marco polo (talk) 17:23, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * On the ethical question, this person wants to put himself or herself into a position where he or she can pay back a debt. What is unethical about that?  It is not like stealing a bank.  The Federal government will continue to charge interest on the unpaid loan, as well as nonpayment penalties, all of which this person presumably intends to pay, so the government continues to get its return.  Marco polo (talk) 20:41, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm I don't know, how about willfully not abiding with the terms of the loan they signed? I mean it is one thing if they actually try to pay back their loan as they go and fail, but to skip town and say, "I will pay on my own terms, not those that I agreed to" is not ethical and helps to raise interest rates for everyone else.  Googlemeister (talk) 21:00, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * A loan is a private contract between two legal or natural persons right? I don't know anything about how the student loan scheme operates in the US (I presume we are talking about the US), but if the terms of the loan are such that they create a loophole whereby the OP, by living overseas, can delay repayment, then that is part of the rights created by the contract, and if the lender does not like it, then they should have retained better lawyers to do their drafting! It definitely is not fraud to take advantage of your legal rights under a contract even to the disadvantage of the other party, unless you had forced the advantageous term upon the other party by unfair means. When it's a borrower against an institutional lender, I can hardly imagine how this can be the case.
 * As to the ethics of it, a student loan that demands repayment regardless of the person's earnings seems, to me, to be unethical. (I come from a country where student loans are provided by the government, and do not need to be repaid until and unless your income within said country exceed a reasonable threshold.) Some might even say that an education system that makes you take on debt in order to afford it is also unethical. I don't think it's nearly so clear cut whether delaying (or even avoiding) your student loan obligations are unethical if the education thus paid for has not allowed you to generate the income necessary to repay the loan.
 * You do know that those countries with "free" education is just passing the costs on to all of their taxpayers rather then those who actually benefit directly. Googlemeister (talk) 13:45, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * For the OP's question - definitely somewhere inland, away from the major cities. Of course you have to consider whether you have the ability to survive there, and whether the added risk of, say, being arbitrarily arrested, outweighs the benefits of a lower cost of living. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:06, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

You're going to need a few more considerations than just cost-of-living. What visa are you on? Does it allow you to enroll in formal Chinese classes, or are you planning on illegally hiring tutors? Will the city / town let you stay there, or do you require a residency permit? Where are you going to live? DOR (HK) (talk) 08:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

kevin book at clear view energy
is there a bio?

just saw him speak, but web page is just a blank logo.

is this how i request that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.10.145.66 (talk) 14:41, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are asking. And the fact that this question has been up for ten hours and nobody has tried to answer it suggests that other people are also unclear what you are asking. Can you be more specific? What web page are you talking about? --ColinFine (talk) 23:19, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I still get cross at Wikipedia's policy of not capitalising words after the first in Section headings, but the total absence of capitals in this heading renders it meaningless. HiLo48 (talk) 00:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I will guess that the OP wants to know if there is a bio of Mr. Kevin Book, the managing director of a company called ClearView Energy Partners LLC. (he has been interviewed on the business news shows such as bloomberg.com). I do not know of one. Blueboar (talk) 01:01, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, so US-centric as well, with no thought from the OP that this is a global encyclopaedia and, when the country in't identified, some of us don't automatically think of the USA. HiLo48 (talk) 00:42, 3 April 2011 (UTC)


 * If you google [kevin book], there is a very short list of references to the guy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:04, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't know it was a guy. I thought he was a book. HiLo48 (talk) 08:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That would have been a reasonable assumption. I'm still not totally sure, but one of the google items had something about energy as a subject, which fits Blueboar's comment. Google is not necessarily a good indicator of notability, but it's a fair indicator of lack of notability, as the number of references seems pretty short. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:18, 3 April 2011 (UTC)


 * He just spoke at the Southern Republican Leadership Conference and I see him quoted in news stories on Google, but I can't find out anything about the company he works for. There seems like there's a lot of google clips but no details.

Guanfu
When in the Qing Dynasty was the Guanfu salt-making site abolished? My book says Guide was abolished in 1756 and Dongguan in 1789, but said nothing about Guanfu (or Huangtian for that matter). Thanks  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 16:01, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really an answer. but some information here "Before the Dark Age, Jiangxi people relied on Guangdong salt. Because of the Great Evacuation (1661-69), they used salt from the Huai River instead. Moreover, few salt-making people returned to Hong Kong. The government's efforts to revive the industry failed. Nowadays, there are still salt-making sites in Tuen Mun and Tai O, but the quality of the salt is inferior to that of the previous dynasties". Alansplodge (talk) 12:07, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That's exactly the page for which I'm trying to find the info. Look at the page history. :P  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 12:33, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I hate it when that happens! Alansplodge (talk) 15:03, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

finance question
What is the best way to hide $ from the US government? I want to cheat on my taxes but I will pay them back in 10 years if I am still solvent.

Googlemeister (talk) 16:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Marry one of the Windsors. Try Princess Anne. I bet she's desperate.92.15.8.176 (talk) 17:00, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You'd have to persuade her to divorce Captain Tim Laurence first though. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Or you could try nicely asking the IRS if they'll treat you like Chris Dodd and Barney Frank. Simply make a request to pay your taxes back as you please, without imposing any sort of financial penalties whatsoever, and justify it by stating you simply couldn't find a convenient time to file your 1040.  It worked for Dodd and Frank; hell, they are/were the chairs of the Finance Committee in the Senate and House respectively, so why shouldn't it work for you?  If they can't get their shit together for their taxes, how could they possibly expect you to? The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 17:48, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Or just throw TurboTax under the bus like Tim Geithner did. Qrsdogg (talk) 18:02, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That depends on how much money, and how it is earned. Income earned the "normal" way: as a salaried or wage earning worker at a reputable place of business, is much harder to hide than money earned by the self employed.  If you make money selling produce at farmer's markets, most of your transactions are in cash, and you just report (and pay taxes on) a lower income than you really earn.  The government could check on it (check how much money you're spending or saving, compare your income to others in similar positions, etc.), but it's more work.  If you work as a clerk at Walmart (or whatever), your employer gives you a W-2, which the government can track down pretty easily.


 * If your super rich (either legitimately, or as a member of organized crime), you hire a lawyer who knows a lot more about U.S. tax codes than we do at this reference desk. They can take advantage of legal means of sheltering income ("tax loopholes"), as well as illegal means.  The "traditional" illegal way to shelter large amounts of money is to hide it in an offshore account.  Switzerland used to be a common place for this (see Banking in Switzerland), but my understanding is that the Swiss aren't nearly as friendly to this activity as they used to be, and now the Caribbean nations and such are more popular.  In any case, there are lots of scams out there about offshore banking .  If you do plan on sheltering large amounts of money offshore, within the law or not, get a competent lawyer. Buddy431 (talk) 17:53, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Googlemeister, you're on record as saying, very recently: "I will not be party to conspiracy to commit fraud". Now, two threads later, you want to "cheat on your taxes", and you're seeking the advice of others, i.e. asking them to conspire with you to commit fraud. Do you seriously expect us to do that which your morals prevent you from doing?  Wait, what morals ... ?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it was an experiment. See talk page. ---Sluzzelin talk ñ
 * Yes, I see that now. This is not what the ref desks are for.  Besides, I've had my fill of falling for April Fools Day jokes.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:41, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Tax avoidance is smart business... Tax evasion is a crime. We can give you lots of advice (not necessarily good advice, but lots of it) in regards to the former... we will not advise you as to the latter. Blueboar (talk) 01:13, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That raises the issue of whether we should be giving "advice" at all, about any subject. You wouldn't go to a reference desk at a library and expect to be given advice about how to avoid tax, about how to approach that cute girl in school, about how to lose weight, about how to dress for an interview, about how to fix your car, TV or computer, or just about anything else.  You might be given the names of reference material or organisations that could help you.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  01:28, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The top of the ref desk page says: The reference desk will not answer ... questions that ... seek guidance on legal matters. It seems pretty clear to me that the OP's question is out of scope of the ref desk. Mitch Ames (talk) 04:11, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

HG Wells quote
The quote "civilization is a race between education and catastrophe" is attributed to HG Wells. But I cannot find where the quote comes from. Help? Kingturtle = (talk) 19:58, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * More accurately, "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe". It's from chapter 41 of his The Outline of History.  Full context here. --Antiquary (talk) 20:28, 1 April 2011 (UTC)