Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 August 10

= August 10 =

Addition to O. Henry article
The Wikipedia article on O. Henry mentions performances of The Cop and the Anthem, but doesn't mention that Red Skelton recorded one some time in the 1950's. Shouldn't that be mentioned in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.27.88.202 (talk) 01:50, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * See The_Cop_and_the_Anthem, which is a better location for the info than the O. Henry article. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:54, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have a reliable source to confirm that fact, please feel free to add  the fact yourself. Just  indicate the source for the addition so that others can trust it to be a true,  verifiable fact.  -- Jayron  32  01:56, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It was a fine and memorable segment of the Red Skelton Show, broadcast December 20, 1955. Here is video of the broadcast: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4. I suppose that a newspaper or book describing it would be required for "reliable sourcing." Ok  here is "A critical history of television's The Red Skelton Show, 1951-1971" by Wesley Hyatt, which lists it for Dec 20, 1955. Google News Archive lists [that broadcastas well as repeat performances in  1958  the fourth performance on Dec 20, 1959,  Dec 20 1960, and Dec 23, 1961. [[User:Edison|Edison]] (talk) 02:35, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sigh. It is already mentioned in the appropriate article, as above. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:20, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Making allegations in fiction and poetry
Hello, I was recently writing something and I wondered - is it ok for a work of fiction of poetry to contain a statement that could be technically libellous? For example, if a poem or a novel contained the line "John Leslie celebrity rapist" (Ulrika Johnson claimed he had raped her but the case never went to court? I understand it's dodgy ground, but a poem is essentially a work of fiction, so I'd imagine that was ok? If I wrote a story about Tony Blair killing a dog, he wouldn't track me down and have me killed (I hope!), but I understand a situation like that might be a bit more edgy? Or am I making a bit of a fuss about nothing? And would it be better or worse if it contained the line "John Leslie the celebrity rapist"? Ol&#39; Uncle Screamin Bug (talk) 13:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There is nothing inherently fictional about poetry. If a poem is about real events or events purported to be real, then it can be libel just as anything else can. If it's something that no reasonable person would interpret as being a true statement, then you're probably ok, but something like the John Leslie claim wouldn't fall under that. (NB: These are just general comments about libel law - it differs considerably from jurisdiction to jurisdiction so if you want specific answers about how it pertains to you, you should consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction.) --Tango (talk) 13:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Libel is covered by the article Defamation. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:10, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You might also have difficulty getting something like that published at all. Looie496 (talk) 15:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Plenty of novelists have been sued for libel or defamation. You're apparently less likely to be sued, at least in the US, if you use pseudonyms for the characters (e.g. Anna Wintour never sued over The Devil Wears Prada because the titular devil wasn't called Anna Wintour).  Note: this isn't legal advice, just a description of past events and other people's opinions. --Colapeninsula (talk) 16:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Slightly related to the above discussion: When Poetry Seems to Matter/NYTimes Bus stop (talk) 16:38, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

DELHI POLICE
Soapbox post deleted. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Australian national debt data
I need to get hold of a timeseries (from the 70s at least) for the Australian federal government debt as a percentage of GDP. I have tried ABS, IMF, OECD, the World Bank and PWT. Does anyone have a link to this timeseries? Jacob Lundberg 62.20.0.254 (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * A Google search for "Australian federal government debt as a percentage of GDP" takes me directly to this document, which I think either gives you what you need or at least points to a place where you can find it. Looie496 (talk) 15:16, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have seen that but I need the data, not just a diagram. I've emailed one of the authors but he has not responded. Jacob Lundberg 62.20.0.254 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC).

I had a look at the Australian Bureau of Statistics, and searched for “central government debt.” The results weren’t great, except that I got a clue as to why some of that debt exists: the search bot asked, “Did you mean “Federal Government Rebate” ?

More to the point, perhaps Jacob Lundberg can clarify if he is looking for “central government debt,” “total gross outstanding debt” or perhaps “net foreign debt.”

If you do not have on-line access, a good library will have back issues of the IMF International Financial Statistics Yearbooks. I’m looking at a 1979 copy that has data from 1949 to 1978, and as an example, it lists (1975 data) Government deficit or surplus -A$4,161 million; Net borrowing: Australian dollars A$3,797 million and foreign currency -A$15 million; Debt: Australian dollars A$13,536 million; and Debt: Foreign Currency A$6,069 million (the last is from 1973, the last year data is available. DOR (HK) (talk) 04:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Google comes through! Here's a spreadsheet with debt to GDP ratios for 1861 to 2010 (find GDP, and work out the dollar amounts yourself): [] DOR (HK) (talk) 04:20, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much! Exactly what I needed! Jacob Lundberg (talk) 09:02, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Is there a list of all verses of the bible by earliest date of appearance in manuscript?
Hi, I'm looking for a reference for the Bible, or at least the NT, that lists, verse by verse, the earliest point at which there exists a manuscript containing that verse. For example, the earliest I know of for the last chapter of Luke is Papyrus 75, around the end of the second century. I know we have an exceptional article on the topic in general, but I can't find, either in any article or on the linked websites (or google) anything that gives the summary of the earliest appearance by verse. There is something close here, but it is not quite what I am after. I really want a list of dates, with a papyrus/MS reference as well. Does anyone know of anything, online or in print? It&#39;s been emotional (talk) 17:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

In what story does Jesus pull a man out of a hole?
I have heard a story where a man falls in a hole just deep enough that a strong man could reach in and pull him out. The leaders of all the world's religions pass by. Most give him useless advice, and some say he must have committed some sin. The last man to pass is Jesus, who reaches in to pull the man out. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 19:51, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * And? Obviously a Sunday School story for simple Christian kids. Given that the sin obsession is primarily a Christian one anyway, it's hardly a realistic story. It would be more likely that Jesus would be telling him he had sinned. HiLo48 (talk) 20:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I dispute that sin is a Christian obsession, but since several religions did not exist at the time, I wonder exactly how the story went. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe sin is the wrong word. I seem to recall that Muhammad was the one who said he must have done something wrong if he fell in the hole. I'll search tomorrow using the title of this thread if I remember. I'd rather not do it at home. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 20:58, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Is not watching where you are going a sin? That must have been on the missing tablet of the originally 20 commandments.  Right up there with "Thou shalt not cheer for the Yankees" and "Thou shalt bring a 6 pack when visiting friends".  Googlemeister (talk) 21:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you misspelled "thou shalt not cheer for the Dodgers". I mean, come on.  You'd have us believe that the Almighty is interested in the American League? --Trovatore (talk) 02:13, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Since he cares about the wellbeing of sparrow, I would suspect he is a fan of birds and is likely to be a Orioles fan, but you might be right and he actually likes the Cardinals. Googlemeister (talk) 13:22, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Muhammad doesn't appear in the Bible, since he was born in 570AD. If both Muhammad and Jesus appear in the same story, it's obviously just something made up as an example (and, apparently, an example of how Islam is evil, which makes it among the worst kind of religious stories). --Tango (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree. But then again, demonization is an age old tactic in in the business of trying to get the most souls (gotta catch em all!). Most religions have stories of 'us vs. them'. What makes it ironic though, is that this story contrasts sharply (completely rejects it, even) with the actual Biblical story that Jesus himself told of the Good Samaritan. It would be more realistic if the "leaders of world religions" included leaders of major modern Christian denominations as well as others, heh. I'd wager a Pope pushed the man there in the first place. --  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   09:16, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I think this scene took place in "Jesus Christ and the Sermon of Doom". Ok, seriously... The story isn't biblical (although there are echos of the "Parable of the Good Samaritan" in it).  It does sound like something that was made up for Sunday school (The implied moral is obvious: no matter how deep a hole (sin) you find yourself in, faith in Christ will get you out of it, and faith in other religions won't). Blueboar (talk) 21:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, prosperity theology would say that if you'd been good, God would have shown his favor by not letting you fall in the hole. Which sounds like a debasement of Christianity to mere magic, but seems awfully popular. Wnt (talk) 02:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That's called Calvinism, right? Oddly enough, it's primarily the wealthy that believe in it. An amazing coincidence. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:25, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sadly, there's also a good-sized group of poor Christians who buy into prosperity theology (which isn't Calvinism, and Calvinism isn't it) and think that when things go badly, it's because they have done something wrong or haven't fully surrendered to God or something, and when they talk to people at their church about their problems will basically get a lecture on how they aren't being a good enough Christian. And probably aren't giving enough to the church. "Not enough money to pay for surgery and feed your children? Well, you can't be tithing enough. If you give more, you'll receive more." People get into real trouble, and think it's all their fault for not being properly saved, but it appeals to them because it appears to offer an answer to all their problems. Calvinism is much less judgemental: it holds that you are either Saved or not Saved, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, no way you can respond to God's Grace, no role you play in your Salvation. This doesn't actually tend to tie in with Earthly prosperity at all. 82.24.248.137 (talk) 16:56, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * After a little Google searching, I found that the source of the story is this video clip from a Christian "teaching" site called BluefishTV. There are also a bunch of copies on Youtube. Looie496 (talk) 05:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't watch videos at home. My Internet is too slow. And I don't have sound where I am now. But I found a similar story here. Vchimpanzee ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 15:25, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Not the one you asked about but I prefer The West Wing story: video, text. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:09, 11 August 2011 (UTC)