Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 August 20

= August 20 =

Restaurant worker pouring dirty water down a sewage drain
Why didn't he do it inside the restaurant? I think he poured the water from a bowl, but I don't remember exactly. Imagine Reason (talk) 01:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Huh? Details? Edison (talk) 02:24, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Might not have been water. It could have been grease which would clog the internal pluming in the restaurant.  It is probably illegal to dispose of waste grease this way, but that doesn't mean that people don't do it. If it was actually water then your guess is as good as mine. -- Daniel  07:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I suppose it's possible the garbage disposal is out of order, and he didn't want to pour old soup with chunks of veggies down the sink like that, for fear of it clogging, so dumped it outside, where the opening is big enough to not clog. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * As one with restaurant experience I can imagine dozens of plausible reasons, but using a sewer drain would be illegal and draw a fine. μηδείς (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I heard of a case where a restaurant in Palo Alto dumped grease into what seemed to be a sewer grate, but was in fact the housing of an electrical transformer ... —Tamfang (talk) 03:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Shocking. Was he charged?  Googlemeister (talk) 14:04, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * If I was a transformer and someone emptied a bowl of greasy dish water over me I'd blow a fuse!--Aspro (talk) 14:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Why not just transform into something waterproof ? :-) StuRat (talk) 18:38, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

What the hell?..
What relation (if any) might there be between the Norse Hella and the Finnish Pohjola? Is it likely that both these mythical places had a common origin, given the fact that both are described as cold and dark, and that the Vikings and Finns are (and were since time immemorial) practically next-door neighbors? (I do think that both these places were based on an actual geographical location in the far north -- the different possibilities being Lapland, the Kola Peninsula, or the Pechora River basin.) 67.169.177.176 (talk) 03:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you mean Hel? Norse Hel is an afterlife thing and Pohjola is just another place where you can go to find a wife and steal mystery objects. Tuonela is the Finnish underworld. Having said that, I can't speak to their origins. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 07:54, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I meant Hel -- Hella is the Germanicized name for it. But from what I have read, Pohjola is said to be bounded by a river of spears and arrows, and anyone who tries to cross it invariably dies.  (Sounds a lot like the Pechora or the other rivers in the far north, which are often lethally cold.)  So it is likely that some Finnish tribes have Pohjola as their underworld, while others have Tuonela.  FWIW 67.169.177.176 (talk) 08:45, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Side note: 'Hel' is already Germanic. The Norse were Germanic people. Calling it 'Hella' does not Germanicize an already Germanic word. If anything, it Latinizes it. Or is it a Finnish term?  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:38, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Answer: By "Germanicized", I mean that this is the name used by Germans (as opposed to Scandinavians) to denote Hel (most notably by Richard Wagner in The Ring of the Nibelung). Clear skies and tailwinds 67.169.177.176 (talk) 19:07, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * By which is meant, then, a word specifically used by the arisocratic, literary class of 19th Century German, and more specifically Wagner, as opposed to the general German word for 'Hel', which is 'Hölle'? This word, 'Hölle', is related to 'Hel'. 'Hella' is a romanticised construct, and is neither German nor Germanic. Sorry to be picky, but language very often does play a part in helping one understand origins or relationships across cultural barriers, and this may or may not be relevant. --  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  11:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * After reading and comparing both articles, another idea has occurred to me: that Tuonela may actually have been a part of the larger realm of Pohjola, similar to how Hel is a part of a larger realm called Nibelheim. How likely does this appear?  67.169.177.176 (talk) 08:54, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The Kalevala does describe Tuonela as having a "death-stream" where Lemminkäinen met his end. In that case, he wasn't killed by the river per se; he was pierced by a serpent "like an arrow from a cross-bow" and then later tossed in the river by the shepherd that summoned the serpent. It doesn't seem that Tuonela is geographically part of Pohjola: in rune XVIII, Väinämöinen is seen sailing from Tuonela to Pohjola. In fact, a lot of the Kalevala's action takes place on the sea to and from Pohjola. But there are other ways to get there: rune XLIX describes a scene where Väinämöinen tries to cross a river to Pohjola, but this river is merely "rough and rapid." In rune XXVI, the resurrected Lemminkäinen enters Pohjola by land and does have to endure a lot of danger to get there, but I believe that it's just because Pohjola is well-defended by magic, not because it's the underworld. Note that I am no Kalevala scholar-- just a fan. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 10:23, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I looked in the Finnish Wikipedia to see what they say. There's a whole article on the topic of the geography of Finnish mythology. There are some interesting theories there, including the idea that Pohjola is Gotland, or that the land of Kalevala is actually northern Estonia and thus Pohjola is southwest Finland. One particularly striking theory (described in the article as "non-scholarly") posits that Pohjola is Constantinople. In short, nobody knows for sure, but I haven't seen anything linking Pohjola to Hel or Niflheim. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 17:53, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

American Historical Association
Is it mandatory to have an academic degree in history to become a member of American Historical Association? Can I join American Historical Association if I don't have a degree in history, but studied the subject independently and have written a history book? --Tyrozzz (talk) 07:35, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it is not mandatory to have an academic degree in history, and yes, members of the public appear eligible to membership in the association. From the website of the American Historical Association: "Whether you are a museum professional, an academic, a K-12 teacher, an independent scholar, or a public historian, you can benefit from membership in the American Historical Association (AHA)..." Membership dues are between $46-$210 (annually, I assume), depending on your income, with certain other categories that are discounted (e.g., students have dues for $40). Neutralitytalk 07:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Legal status of strange US law
What does happen in case someone gets sued by one of these strange US laws? (if they indeed are not a hoax). For example: New Hampshire: It’s forbidden to sell the clothes you’re wearing to pay off a gambling debt; Nebraska: Bar owners may not sell beer unless they brew a kettle of soup simultaneously; Hawaii: All residents may be fined for not owning a boat; Quest09 (talk) 13:48, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think a lawsuit would be involved, as these are most likely criminal laws. Specifically, they sound like civil infractions (like traffic tickets) or possibly misdemeanors.  I'd expect a police officer to give you a ticket, which you can pay or fight in court.  The judge might criticize the cop for trying to enforce such a stupid law, or they might choose to enforce it, too.  If so, there's not much basis to fight the laws.  Being stupid isn't unconstitutional.


 * The soup law sounds like an attempt to limit brewing beer to restaurants. No doubt the legislators felt the need to do more than call any place which serves food a restaurant, as any bar could then serve peanuts to get around the law.  Since brewing soup while making beer isn't much of a burden to place on a restaurant, but is for a bar without any cooking facilities, they felt this would get the job done.


 * The boat law sounds like it could possibly be challenged on the basis of it being impossible. That is, can everyone afford a boat, and are their dock facilities for all of them ?  I suppose it depends on how they define a boat.  If a rowboat will do, I suppose everyone could stash them in their garage/storage room.


 * The not selling clothes to settle gambling debts sounds like it was passed by the gambling industry, to avoid the bad PR it would cause if people did this. StuRat (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Or perhaps it was an attempt to prevent people from gambling away everything? Nyttend (talk) 18:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Are these things ever real laws? I always see lists of them presented humorously, but there is never any proof that they are real. It would be fairly easy to make something like this up, mad-libs style. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:14, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The question I ask is: Who can guarantee me they would never be used against people? We're told they've been "superseded", but they're still on the statute books, they are still "the law", and someone could choose to enforce them.  No?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, if they really were superseded, meaning subsequent laws were passed which changed or eliminated the penalties, then they are no longer in force. StuRat (talk) 21:30, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Although if the superseding law is later repealed or no longer applies, then the original law goes back into force again. This has happened in the US, where the national symbol, the bald eagle was protected by the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act, then this was superseded by it's protection under the Endangered Species Act.  Since it is no longer endangered, and that Act no longer applies, it is now again protected under the original law. StuRat (talk) 23:15, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * In addition, there is the concept of desuetude - something may be considered void by a court if it has been nominally in force but not actually enforced for a prolonged period. Shimgray | talk | 22:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Regarding the soup issue, see the Raines law and similar legislation - an attempt to force alcohol to only be served in hotels led to, among other things, the provision of a sandwich that the customer was explicitly expected not to eat. Shimgray | talk | 22:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

This is uncited and a no-no, but I couldn't resist. I recall reading that in london it is still illegal to drink wine in public unless you are wearing your sword and silver buckled shoes.Phalcor (talk) 20:39, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * See Dumb laws. Examples are often false, or formulated in an exaggerated or misleading way. For example, somebody might have been convicted of public nudity under a normal law, and unsuccesfully attempted the defense that he had to sell the clothes he was wearing to pay off a gambling debt. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:19, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * To be fair, there could be a specific written law forbidding depriving someone of the clothes they are wearing to pay a debt, and it might state that the debtor themself is not allowed to sell their own clothes (that they are wearing) to pay the debt, to prevent them being pressed to 'choose' to do so. I know that in the UK, that are all sorts of stipulations about what may or may not be seized to pay back debts: you can't take someone's bed that they sleep in, or a workman's tools with which he earns a living. It would hardly be surprising to find a law that specified you couldn't sell or take the clothes someone was wearing to pay a debt. 86.163.214.39 (talk) 10:51, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The typical "dumb law" one reads about is a hoax or a deliberate misrepresentation. An example is a supposed law against "tieing an alligator to a fire hydrant." The real law might be against tieing any animal to a fire hydrant, since a vicious dog tied to a hydrant might delay for a bit the fire department getting a hose hooked up. The writer makes a sensible lar silly by instantiating it with a weird example. Edison (talk) 23:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * One of the very, very few of those kinds of laws that I've found to be genuine was a San Francisco city ordinance which stated, "An elephant may not stroll down Market Street unless it is on a leash". Most are more like what you describe; the Florida law about not being allowed to tie alligators to parking meters is actually a prohibition on tying anything to parking meters, as it would make it rather difficult to feed said meter if an angry mastiff or bobcat (yes, I know someone who has a bobcat as a pet) was tied to it. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 02:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Traditional pareve dessert
What pareve desserts are there in traditional Ashkenazi cuisine? Jewish cuisine doesn't go into much detail about desserts, and those it mentions are mostly associated with a specific holiday. Googling "pareve desserts" gets me a lot of recipes that are pareve because they use modern dairy substitutes like Cool Whip and margarine. I'm not Jewish myself, so I don't have a Jewish mother or grandmother to ask. But I'm interested to know what might have been served after a fleyshike Shabbes dinner about 100-150 years ago in Eastern Europe. What would Sholem Aleichem's mother have made for dessert for Friday night? Pais (talk) 15:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Some types of rugelach are parve. Neutralitytalk 18:22, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * As are most kinds of halva, which I think had made its way up through eastern Europe by then. They did have vegetable oil, so maybe recipes like this apple cake are closer to traditional. They must also have had various kinds of cooked fruit desserts. These are all guesses, though. Lesgles (talk) 01:08, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * There's a little discussion here that is slightly on-topic, under the heading "Jewish Apple Cake". Bus stop (talk) 01:25, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Not Jewish myself, but the first Jewish desert I can think of is hamentaschen. -- Jayron  32  05:16, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree because I hardly think of a hamentaschen as receiving "…an extremely low amount of precipitation, less than enough to support growth of most plants." Of course this would depend on placement. Bus stop (talk) 14:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I certainly wouldn't want to eat a hamentash that was wet enough to support growth of plants. Pais (talk) 17:46, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but hamentashn are closely associated with Purim, and I was looking for something not particularly associated with any certain holiday. As for halva, is it something an ordinary person would be likely to make at home, or is/was it typically store-bought? The apple cake looks tasty! Pais (talk) 17:25, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Soup to nuts is a popular phrase not necessarily having anything to do with Judaism, or at least nothing I'm aware of. But nuts I think would be pareve. Bus stop (talk) 18:02, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Further proof that Wikipedia has an article on everything: The Great Latke-Hamantash Debate. So where do you stand on this, Bus stop? ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:11, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * One of the things about Jewish people is that we were (often forcibly) moved to enclaves here and there and everywhere, and once there often isolated, and so there are Jewish food traditions in many different parts of the world that have developed for quite a long time and have predictably folded in aspects of the surrounding culture; concomitantly, there are many different food traditions. Speaking strictly from an Ashkenazi standpoint (which I am), there are many different food traditions depending on whether the Jews were from Poland, or Germany or Austria or Hungary, etc. and even some particular part of those countries—even different towns can result in a different tradition. Take Matzoh ball soup: I think even more important than the latke-hamantashen issue is this schism—the irreconcilable divide—between those who like disgusting, spongy "floaters", and those of us who have good taste and like delicious hearty "sinkers". Anyway, from my perspective with grandparents one from a small town in Austria, and another from Hungary, traditional pareve desserts include mohnstrudel (no Wikipedia article) various kugels (lokshen kugel) and my grandmother used to always make these incredible plum dumplings, like nothing you've ever had (also made with poppy seeds). Basically, you take whole ripe plums, carefully halve them then remove the pit, fill the center with sugar and other things, then close them up as if they were whole, then wrap them in pastry that has a layer of poppy seed confection smeared on the inside that I don't know how she made, then wrap them making sure you have no air bubbles and that they are completely sealed, then boiling them (yes boiling) them, and then finishing them with baking. Indescribable.--108.46.107.181 (talk) 21:05, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds tasty, and sounds very similar to Germknödel. Pais (talk) 21:19, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Ashkenazi pareve desserts? May vary culturally with geography but Ashkenazis in the UK might go for (off the top of my food-loving head) lokshen kugel (a bit old hat these days), fruit crumbles/pies/tarts or other pastries, chocolate mousse made with dark (ie non dairy) chocolate, served with jelly or pareve ice cream or even pareve custard. Not many of these are very "traditional" I'm afraid. Other than perhaps the first. --Dweller (talk) 12:27, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Term for scholarly study of children
Those who study the elderly are gerentologists, and their field is gerentology. Do we have a similar term for those who study children or for their field? I don't want pediatrics or pediatricians — I'm trying to write more of a early childhood development topic, but I'm really not looking at it from a psychology angle. Nyttend (talk) 18:08, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Pedology? Or perhaps "developmental anthropology" or "developmental human physiology" or something. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 18:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Usually the adjective developmental (or pediatric in medicine) implies dealing with children, as in developmental psychology. See, for instance, Jean Piaget. μηδείς (talk) 18:55, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Homecoming and prom dress lengths for formality
When it comes to homecoming and prom dresses, I notice that many retailers (including high-end ones) sell dresses intended to be worn at these occasions that are around knee length, which I have always got the impression were more casual than full length dresses. I was always under the impression that these two dances were formal enough occasions that they called for the more formal, more traditional full length dresses, but it seems that the shorter dresses aren't exactly uncommon at them. Is there something I'm missing somewhere that makes these shorter length dresses appropriate for formal dances like homecoming and prom? Ks0stm (T•C•G) 20:07, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are missing the fact that many teens don't actually know what traditional formal wear actually is. To many teens, a knee length cocktail dress is formal. Blueboar (talk) 01:02, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Times change and dress styles change with them. Clearly from your own narrative the vendors are in concert with their clientele. The notion that contemporary youth should copy the style of their mothers and grandmothers would not seem to have empirical support. I tend to think we are better, not worse, for that. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:10, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * A very polite and diplomatic version of “Get with the times, old man!”. lol Royor (talk) 07:17, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia article Hemline. Back in the late 1960s, some women got married in miniskirt wedding dresses (File:BrideMiniskirt1968.jpg)... AnonMoos (talk) 09:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Re changing times, I'm reminded of something Miss Manners once said: "Nowadays I wouldn't dare tell anyone not to dress for dinner." Anyway, I don't think there has ever been a necessary correlation between dress length and formality. This dress seems to be quite long, but is hardly formal. Pais (talk) 17:31, 21 August 2011 (UTC)