Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 February 22

= February 22 =

Books on arguments against I.D. and Young Earth Creationism
What are some good books written by scholars with arguments against Intelligent design and Young Earth Creationism? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:02, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Fairly few - most just lay out the evidence for the standard theory. Most of Dawkins is good, with The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution being particularly on-topic. Or look over the TalkOrigins Archive, which has an index to nearly every creationist claim and its refutation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I love The Selfish Gene for the science and The Ancestor's Tale for a fascinating if slightly outdated story consumable by the chapter. 66.108.223.179 (talk) 04:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Stephen_Jay_Gould wrote several books that, while not explicitly addressing Intelligent Design, do argue against the premise that a world as complicated as ours must have a designer. This topic (purposeful design vs. spontaneous order) is also addressed in a different way by the economist Vernon_L._Smith in Rationality in Economics: Constructivist and Ecological Models. The entry on emergence might also help.

is this stuff true?
is all this stuff true http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/02/20/magazine/mind-secrets.html?src=me&ref=homepage about the history of memory training and how memory exercises were considered on par with grammar and arithmetic? I never heard it before... 109.128.213.73 (talk) 02:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Didn't click on the link, but I once read part of a book called "The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci" which is kind of about that; there's some discussion at Method of loci... AnonMoos (talk) 03:51, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There were some books by Harry Lorayne that were popular in the 20th century about this too. 71.141.88.54 (talk) 04:45, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Much of it is definitely true. The best book on this, I think, is The Art of Memory by Frances A. Yates.  Our own article on the Art of memory summarizes a lot of the history. Looie496 (talk) 05:14, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Cross of nail.....coventry cathedral
I have a cross of nails on a woden base. "He lives" is carved into the wood. There is a plate engraved "Cross of nails  coventry cathedral   coventry england on the wood base.  My grandfather had it.  He lived in newfoundland canada.

How did he come to get this, where does it come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.162.165.13 (talk) 02:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The Cross of Nails does seem to be strongly associated with Coventry Cathedral - see this section of our article. The destruction of the cathedral on the night of 14th November 1940 during the Coventry Blitz was a hugely significant psychological moment of the Second World War. DuncanHill (talk) 03:05, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As to how your grandfather came to acquire it, perhaps someone gave it him as a present: such items are sold by the Cathedral as souvenirs! --TammyMoet (talk) 10:16, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I would love to find out when these souvenirs were handed out, how much he paid and how he came to know of them (advertising?). He has never been in England, so he would of received it by mail. I beleive he received it in the 1950"s. ANyone have insight?

Antony Flew (former atheist)
What is the relationship between Antony Flew and the Atheist Agenda? —Wavelength (talk) 07:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It is you who added the link in the first place, so maybe you can tell us? I can tell you what the probable cause for the removal was - it seems like a logical fallacy (argument from authority?) in the vein of: "This prominent atheist says he was mistaken and started believing in God, hence the AA is also mistaken and should start believing in God." I also think your other addition of "state atheism" to the See also section of the AA article was questionable to say the least - no one is arguing that articles on insignificant little local churches should have "Theocracy" in their See also sections, and likewise an insignificant little local atheist gathering shouldn't have state atheism linked to them either. TomorrowTime (talk) 11:20, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Let's not forget Antony's brother Juan, the ornithologist. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cue rimshot.  Kingsfold  (Quack quack!)  15:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that Antony Flew, as an atheist, was known especially for promoting atheism. It seems to me that the Atheist Agenda is known especially for promoting atheism.  Therefore, it seems to me that the promotion of atheism is a primary characteristic shared by Antony Flew when he was an atheist and by the Atheist Agenda now.  (His subsequent conversion is irrelevant to that comparison.)  I posted the question because I reasoned that someone might have seen or might see some important details that I had missed.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ice is known primarily for being cold. It seems to me that space is known especially for being cold. What is the relationship between ice and space? Just because two things share a (not especially unusual) characteristic, doesn't mean they are related. Why have you asked if he is related to the Atheist Agenda rather than any of the other groups or people who promote atheism? 86.163.4.79 (talk) 17:03, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply.—Wavelength (talk) 21:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I did notice some import details you missed. In particular, it seems to me someone didn't even read the articles they tried to link together. "However, in 2004 he stated an allegiance to deism" ... "The Atheist Agenda is an organization founded in 2005". Nil Einne (talk) 18:29, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply.—Wavelength (talk) 21:10, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Bryony Worthington, Baroness Worthington
Who is the father of her baby? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  09:26, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * A quick Google search doesn't seem to find much in the way of personal details, and in any case, I don't think the paternity of non-notable children is really an appropriate topic for Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me rephrase it. Is Bryony Worthington married; and if so, to whom? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  15:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I checked a few other likely sources (Debrett's People of Today, KnowUK, etc), but couldn't find any info. I suspect it's too soon since her elevation to the peerage, and she wasn't very well known before then. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I added some more info to the article yesterday, but found nothing about her recent relationships - although, quite interestingly, it seems she was once in a relationship with comedian Rhod Gilbert (unless there is more than one Bryony Worthington, of course). Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:23, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Poem written in response to "House by the Side of the Road"
I used to have a book of poems which contained "House by the Side of the Road" by Sam Walter Foss. The book also contained a poem that was written in response to "House by the Side of the Road," which basically took the position that one should be in the road interacting with people rather than watching them pass by. Do you know who wrote that response poem, its title, or anything else that might help me find it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.140.50.170 (talk) 13:58, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Using Google Books, I find that the book you are looking for is The best loved poems of the American people by Hazel Felleman, Random House, 1936. It contains House by the Side of the Road as well as, on page 106, a poem called Crowded Ways of Life by Walter S. Gresham, with a note saying it was written in response to to the Foss poem and a theme as you describe. Looie496 (talk) 18:47, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Trust fund kids
Is a trust fund bad for your kids? I mean, if your kids do not have to earn never ever their own money, will that make them necessarily immature and ill-adapted? It is certainly said that this is common, but most people that say so don't have any first hand experience, so it doesn't have to be true. I tend to see a parallel between climbing a mountain/driving with your car to the top of the mountain. The first demands more from you, but it's more rewarding and allows you to grow as a person. 77.231.17.82 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC).
 * The mountain analogy would be an argument for a child to voluntarily relinquish a trust fund. If what is under consideration is to refuse the child the option of a trust fund, though, the analogy needs modifying. It would more closely correspond to arbitrarily refusing to drive a person up a mountain - moreover, arbitrarily refusing to drive a close family member up a mountain, obliging them to walk instead. This seems likely to have a negative effect on their immediate happiness and on your relationship. As for the effect on their personality in later life: quite apart from the likely negative effect on the personality of any festering resentment towards one's parent, it's common for children to believe that the formation of their personality is their own business, which is a more general form of the same question of who rightfully gets to decide the child's means of transport. 81.131.10.8 (talk) 16:32, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * That's an odd perspective. Seems like you're talking about a situation where a trust fund is taken away from the child, whereas the OP is talking about not setting one up. As someone brought up by parents who accumulated quite a lot of wealth, but who made it clear to me from an early age that the intention was never to leave us money, there's never been any resentment about that. We know the money is for them to enjoy, and give away, and that they've done their best to help us get set up to live our own lives. Why would we resent not having a load of unearnt money so we never had to work? We've been fortunate as it is, why resent not having even more advantages that (according to the beliefs we were raised with) would not be good for our personal development? We will be left personal items we care about: the money is intended to have been spent. 86.163.4.79 (talk) 16:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Taking things for granted, no matter what, can make you unhappy. However, a trust fund could be granted under certain conditions: up the age of 21, in case of disability or as a retirement fund. You don't have to convert your children into spoiled princes with your money, and yes, climbing a mountain is more rewarding than driving up a mountain, walking is more rewarding than being pushed in a wheelchair. People need a certain level of activity. Quest09 (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I've certainly met mature and well-adapted trust fund kids (they're swarming where I work). I've met people who were obviously trust fund kids as kids, who have become rather important and mature and influential people today. This is just anecdata, though, I don't know the actual numbers. The one thing I've noticed is common to all former trust fund kids is that they have a very hard time relating to what it is like to have very little money — they honestly just don't seem to get, at a deep level, what it's like to live month to month, which most non-trust fund kids have experienced at some time in their lives. In my experience that is only a big problem if you put said trust fund kids in charge of the incomes of more marginal people; they're more likely to say, "oh, what's an extra few hundred dollars?" without realizing that can mean the difference between paying heating bills for some people (even people who are ostensibly middle class). --Mr.98 (talk) 18:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Let me guess Mr.98, you work at a private bank, managing private funds? 212.169.183.15 (talk) 19:45, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't I wish. No, much worse: higher education. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * You'll find immature folks along all classes. Having a secure income doesn't make you necessarily a bad person. However, you won't relate to problems of people who do not have this sort of problems (like Mr.98 points out), but you could also say the same of people born male relating to problems of female, non-disable relating to disable, or heteros relating to problems of homos. The list is infinite. We all have our limitations. 212.169.183.15 (talk) 19:45, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The author of Hagakure asserts that there are two things that will spoil a man's character: riches and fame. He also states that only people who are dependant on others to at least age thirty will come to any good. Vranak (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Some famous billionaire (I can't remember which one) once said "I plan to leave my kids enough that they can do anything, but not so much that they can do nothing." I quite liked that. Rather difficult to achieve in practice, though... --Tango (talk) 23:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems like the attitude of Warren Buffet. The idea above, of a fund tied to a purpose, like retirement, seems as a good option of taking care of your kids without spoiling them. A similar situation, but much more common, are entrepreneurs' kids who inherit the company of the parents. That implies being responsible for something, at least. 212.169.188.107 (talk) 00:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with the sentiment of only giving the kids money for worthy causes, like education, paying for medical bills, retirement, etc. I could extend that to basic housing, clothing, and transportation, but, if they want a Park Avenue penthouse, a Ferrari, strands of diamonds, and a dog that fits in a purse, they will have to earn those personally.  (Also provide females with lots of free panties, because female celebs always seem to be lacking those. :-) ) StuRat (talk) 05:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Looking at the evidence, there are people who have achieved significant things despite living on an unearned private income: playboy-poet Frederick Seidel is one of the best-known living examples, and before him Henry James, Wyndham Lewis, artist John Piper, poet and writer Siegfried Sassoon, adventuress and writer Anne Blunt, 15th Baroness Wentworth, poet Sacheverell Sitwell, and many other members of the upper classes. I've excluded people who died young or definitely can't be said to have had good lives: Jane Austen never had to work for a living, though she did die of illness aged 42. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:53, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, don't worry about the kids. The grandkids are the problem; traditionally, it's the grandkids who squander the fortune.  (Trust funds, of course, exist in order to try to prevent them from squandering the fortune.)  Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Freemasonic countess in the 18th-century?
Exactly how many other examples of women eccepted in to regular freemasons are there except Elizabeth Aldworth? I just read a (Swedish language) book about secret societies. In the chapter about the freemasons, there was a short notice about another woman than Aldworth, who was also a full member of a regular freemasonic lodge. A Hungarian Countess by the name of Brankoczy was accepted in to the freemasons in the 18th-century, during the reign of Maria Theresia. The reason for this was, reportedly, that Brankoczy had inherited her father's title and position as the head of his family, and was therefore counted as a man and a count rather than a countess. She was inducted by a local lodge, and when the main lodge of Hungary heard of this, she was cast out again. According to the book, she was one of only two women confirmed to have been inducted to the regular freemasons in accordance to the same rituals as men. Unfortunately, this notice was very short, only a few lines, and really didn't say any more than above. Can anyone confirm this? What was her full name and who was she? The book only briefly mentione her as "Countess Brankoczy". When did she live and when was she inducted to the freemasons? --Aciram (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * A lot depends on who you talk to. First, we have to ask what you mean by "regular"... Freemasonry is not a single unified thing, and there is a lot of disagreement as to what "regular" means.  Under the form of Freemasonry that is in the majority in Britain and the United States, women are excluded (and lodges that accept women are deemed "irregular").  There are lots of stories and anecdotes of women who were initiated in the early years of the fraternity, but Aldworth is the only one that can be confirmed though actual documentation.  However there are minority Masonic groups in each country that have always accepted women (and these groups consider themselves to be "regular"). In Europe co-ed Masonic bodies are much more common (see our article on Continental Freemasonry).  Male-only Freemasonry is actually in the minority.
 * As for the specific case ... Countess Brankoczy is probably another "legend". There isn't really much evidence that she actually existed. It is certainly possible... but we are not sure. (And it is also possible that she is a conglomeration of several women who joined a lodge that went co-ed.)  Blueboar (talk) 21:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * You'll find some information at our page on Freemasonry and women, but few of the claims made there are supported by references. Caveat lector. --Antiquary (talk) 21:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I would also recommend "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Freemasonry" by S. Brent Morris (don't let the name deter you... While the book is designed to be an introductory level overview, Brent Morris is a very highly respected authority on Freemasonry). Chapter 7 discusses the issue of Women and Freemasonry, and mentions some of the women who have been made Masons (in various masonic bodies).  Unfortunately he does not mention Countess Brankowczy. 18:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Ancient Symbols of Hyrule
This is an image of the Triforce, a powerful, ancient magical object in the Legend of Zelda series. An image of it appears on the backs of the hands of the main characters like this. The royal family of the game also incorporate it into their symbol, which looks something like this.

A friend of mine claims that the Triforce imagery doesn't look very ancient. He's challenged me to try to find real-life ancient symbols like it (his specific line was "show me one symbol from ancient times that incorporates three triangles, or similar, and yellow"). I've been Googling, but ancient symbols are hardly my speciality. I was wondering if anyone knows of any other symbols anything like the Triforce? Or would you agree that three golden triangles just doesn't look very ancient? He was unable to be specific as to what about it was specifically un-ancient, only that it looked like the radioactivity hazard symbol. Vimescarrot (talk) 20:56, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * How about this? --Mr.98 (talk) 22:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure if this is ancient enough, and it's also not yellow, but how about the clan crest of the Hojo clan? TomorrowTime (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * (EC) The examples above are great, and Shigeru_Miyamoto likely would have been familiar with the Hojo crest when he designed the triforce. Also, I think the OP would do well to research African patterns. This example is only a few hundred years old, but I suspect the style goes back much further. As a bonus, it seems very similar to the art in the opening sequence of "wind waker", which IMO did a great job of simulating ancient-feeling art. FWIW, I think the triforce is plenty ancient feeling. Though it's not repeated, it forms the basis of  one of the Wallpaper_groups, which in general have quite a long history. Ndebele_house_painting may give you further leads. SemanticMantis (talk) 00:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * How about the triskelion? It's not exactly a triangle, but sort of... Adam Bishop (talk) 00:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Isn't it an example of tiling by regular polygons, specifically triangular tiling? There's a heraldic term...--Wetman (talk) 03:01, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Such a field might be blazoned as "Barry bendy dexter and sinister," "Barry lozengy" or "Barry pily," according to this, and the specific emblem might be "A Pile Inverted Or Voided of a Pile" [Explicatory addendum: in modern non-heraldic English that means "An Upright Triangle, Gold, with an Inverted Triangle pierced through it], but I'm open to correction. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * In art and math, we call the arrangement a tessellation. The Hyrule image is a tessellation of equilateral triangles.  This technique has been used in mosaics and opus sectile for thousands of years.  Your friend asks an almost impossible request: find a three yellow triangle tessellation which has been preserved for centuries and concerning which a picture exists on the internet and which copies the modern invention of a Japanese video game designer.  One example can be found in the ancient port city of Ostia outside of Rome. It isn't yellow and it doesn't contain a single set of three triangles, but the design was not unknown.  The hyrule triangle can be folded to form a tetrahedron, which was known to Plato, Euclid and all the ancient mathematicians that came after them. Indeed, pyramids are an ancient design.  The hyrule symbol is not completely alien to anything ever thought of before, but then again it is a modern design from a modern mind.  In that sense it is both modern and ancient at the same time. 24.38.31.81 (talk) 19:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for all the responses. Much appreciated. Especially interesting was the crest of the Hojo clan...very similar. Pyramids were something that was brought up in the discussion, too. Vimescarrot (talk) 21:30, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

HMS Joanna
Hello, I'm looking for information on a ship named HMS Joanna. I believe it was under construction but scrapped before it was built. Does anyone have more details? Thanks 86.174.95.191 (talk) 23:14, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There was, I believe, a now-closed nightclub in Southsea, Portsmouth called Joanna's which, because of the high proportion of Naval personnel among its clientele, was nicknamed "HMS Joanna." Is it possible that this is the basis of your source(s)? 87.81.230.195 (talk) 01:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Brilliant! --Wetman (talk) 02:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I should note that, though a peripheral Scummer with many Skate and Turktown friends, I actually found that out by googling :-) ! 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:29, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Time for a bit of background information to my question. I'm working on a novel which I have provisionally titled HMS Joanna, but on telling a friend about it yesterday, was advised I couldn't use the name because it was already in use. I was then told that a ship named HMS Joanna had been commissioned, but that work had been stopped before it was finished. Thanks for the possible explanation. It sounds feasible, and I've Googled the name since yesterday and found references to the nightclub. I've also found a USS Joanna which was written off as "unaccounted for abroad" in 1920 after serving with the US Navy during World War I, and I'm wondering now if this is the ship to which my friend was referring. 81.151.51.40 (talk) 20:14, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I cannot see why there being a ship of the same name would preclude the novel having the name. I think your friend may be being massively over-cautious. Good luck with the novel. --Tagishsimon (talk)
 * Also, British warships aren't commissioned until after their acceptance trial. An incomplete ship wouldn't be commissioned. Alansplodge (talk) 13:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks both, for the good wishes and the information on sea trials, etc. The book is in its early stages of development, so it will be a few years before I'm finished I suspect. Interestingly I note Alistair Maclean used HMS Ulysses as a title and we've had several ships using that name, so I guess I shouldn't have a problem with HMS Joanna. 81.151.53.213 (talk) 23:14, 25 February 2011 (UTC)