Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 July 1

= July 1 =

Thunder and lightning
I'm not sure whether to put this here or in Science. I'm wondering, in pre-modern societies that lacked a scientific understanding of light and sound, what (if any) explanations were posited for the time delay between thunder and lightning? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 01:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * They probably thought of light as instantaneous, but sound is so slow you can tell it's not. There's the thunder and lightning example, but also you can hear the delay when a distant person hits two rocks together. StuRat (talk) 02:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Some symbolic beliefs separated the two. A couple examples: Vikings knew that blacksmiths heated the iron before striking it. So, the flash of light came before the thunder when Thor was striking his hammer on an anvil. Some Native American tribes attributed it to a lightning bird. The lightning came from the flaps of its wings and the thunder from its cry. -- k a i n a w &trade; 02:37, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Bear in mind that (by definition) pre-scientific societies didn't see any need to "explain" everything. But it is easy to observe a time lag when watching, say, farm labourers at a distance, or hearing an echo.--Shantavira|feed me 07:49, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * For an example from a pre-modern society that did sort of have a scientific understanding, the Greeks (or at least Aristotle) knew that sound was a physical thing moving through a physical body (the air), and took time to do so. They didn't really understand what light was though; I think it was Plato, rather than Aristotle, who thought that light was not a physical thing and was just there, shooting out from your eyes onto everything you see, instantaneously, at infinite speed if it had a speed at all. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think you can say the Greeks had a "scientific understanding", rather it would be better to say they "guessed right." Saying what the Greeks did was "science" is like saying what a lottery winner did was "investing".  The Greeks didn't do science any more than other pre-modern societies, but they had a mythology and a philosophy that through nothing more than dumb luck happened to have a coincidental resemblance to the results of modern scientific experiment.  And even less so; the biases of Western culture hold the ancient Greeks in such high regard (and other pre-modern cultures in such low regard) that it tends to skew its view of how "right" the Greeks were, coloring our interpretation of their philosophy to make it seem as though the Greeks were somehow prescient in their understanding of the physical universe; in reality the same arguement could be made for just about any pre-modern society, it just takes a willingness to draw connections between the myths and the science in the way we've done with the Greeks.  -- Jayron  32  14:00, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure how to disprove that they guessed right, but bear in mind that much of the Greeks' knowledge did not come from Greece. Greece and Macedonia dominated much of Turkey, Egypt and other lands and collected a great amount of information (and actual books and scholars) from those sources.  In much the same way Rome became scientifically advanced later on by dominating Greece. Wnt (talk) 17:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * All science is based on trial-and-error, but the important part is that you accept the correct answer when you "guess right", rather than ignoring it if it goes against your preconceptions, religions, etc., as in the later case of the Catholic Church suppressing the fact that the Earth is not the center of the universe. The Greeks also conducted some experiments, like the one where the length of shadows at the same time along a north-south axis was used to determine the diameter of the Earth.  While it's true that there was also some rather non-scientific thought going on, with people saying the world was one way because they wanted it to be so, like that related to the perfect solids representing 5 fundamental elements, this is also true in our time, with Intelligent Design being an example. StuRat (talk) 18:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I can imagine pre-modern societies trying to explain some inexplicable things with the phrase "God made it that way". Astronaut (talk) 15:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Aside from StuRat's example of "the Greeks" doing science like we do science, I should also point out that many of the scientific/natural philosophers lived before Greece had any power over Babylonia and Egypt. There was presumably contact and influence before that, but they didn't just discover science after conquering Egypt. (And in much the same way, Rome was influenced by contact with the Greek colonies in Italy, long before they conquered Greece.) Adam Bishop (talk) 20:59, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

French phrase for owner of loot?
There's a French phrase for the informal contract that, say, people enter into when they find (often in wartime) an amount of gold, hide it, and agree that it belongs to the last surviving member of those party to the agreement. I can't remember the phrase; does anyone know? Thanks, Ericoides (talk) 05:46, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you tried asking at Reference desk/Language? It might have a higher concentration of people able to answer your question. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:52, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a tontine, like in english. 80.169.233.244 (talk) 06:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's the one. Ericoides (talk) 08:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I wonder how many people are familiar with tontines only from Raging Abe Simpson and His Grumbling Grandson in "The Curse of the Flying Hellfish". Adam Bishop (talk) 08:14, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Somewhat older folk may be familiar with them from an episode of M*A*S*H involving a tontine of which Col. Potter was a participant. Deor (talk) 11:27, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Or The Wrong Box (1965) about two elderly brothers who stand to benefit from a tontine should the other die. "The film is so British that it met with a gentle success in most places except Britain, where it was a terrible flop. I suppose this was because the film shows us exactly as the world sees us - as eccentric, charming and polite - but the British knew better that they were none of these things, and it embarrassed them." (comment by Michael Caine). Alansplodge (talk) 14:52, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't know there was a movie. The novel (by Robert Louis Stevenson) is great fun. Looie496 (talk) 18:13, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I remember seeing that movie at the cinema when it was current. I laughed myself sick, particularly at Tony Hancock addressing a crowd of unsuspecting gallery patrons and telling them they were all mad, before storming out of the room.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  22:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

How tall is Elizabeth II?
How tall is Elizabeth II? --John (talk) 18:44, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * 5' 4" according to IMDb, which isn't, of course, a formal reliable source. I don't think that any answer other than "not very" can be considered definitive. Tevildo (talk) 19:24, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I would say that 5'4" is about right - I was surprised how short she was. Alansplodge (talk) 19:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. So is it safe to say there is no "official" height for HM? --John (talk) 00:27, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps she has an "official" height and an actual height, like her birthdays. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * can you elaborate on 'her birthdays'? (naming the two). 188.28.55.61 (talk) 01:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say the reference is to the fact that, while British monarchs have a real, natural birthday just like any other human, being the anniversary of the day they were actually born - in Queen Elizabeth's case, 21 April 1926 - there's also a celebration of the Queen's Official Birthday, which is almost always held on a different date (or dates; it varies between Commonwealth realms, and even between jurisdictions within a single realm). --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:20, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It is maddening that you follow my request "naming the two" by naming the one - 21 April 1926. Can you please "name the two" so that I can be sure I am not misunderstanding you!  (i.e. please name another date for the Birthday of Queen Elizabeth, besides 21 April 1926.) --188.28.104.202 (talk) 04:55, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Jack did name the two; it's just that the second one varies over time and place, as you'll see by consulting the article on the Queen's Official Birthday. It's often celebrated in June or just before because (I would venture to guess) Her Majesty was crowned on 2 June 1953. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it would take quite a bit of research to discover exactly why the Queen's Birthday is celebrated on so many different dates in different realms. And why it has changed within realms, and why it keeps changing in certain places.  Take Australia - "Until 1936 it was held on the actual birthday of the Monarch, but after the death of George V it was decided to keep the date on the second Monday in June."  Now, George V's birthday was 3 June, which cannot ever fall on the 2nd Monday in June, so why did they choose the 2nd Monday rather than the 1st Monday?  Western Australia celebrates it on a different day from the rest of the country, sometimes late September, sometimes early Octonber, but it could be pretty much any time of the year.  The Governor of WA has to make a special proclamation each year before anyone knows what the date's going to be.  He takes his advice from the Premier of WA.  What goes into the advice s/he tenders?  And that's just one country. In the UK, it's on either the 1st, 2nd or occasionally 3rd Monday in June - why does it vary, and what factors are taken into account?  We have a long way to go before we're World Experts on the dates of the Queen's Official Birthday.  Does that unmadden you somewhat, 188.28.104.202?  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn] !
 * American calendar-makers and school planners work years in advance, although occasionally they're thrown by Congress fiddling with the start and end of Daylight Savings Time as a substitute for an energy policy or by the addition or moving of some legal holiday. What do British and Australian calendar makers do for (say) the year 2014? put in a lot of question-marks (interrogation points), asterisks and "TBD"s ? —— Shakescene (talk) 07:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * In Australia holidays are mostly matters for the state governments. We have a couple of strongly agreed "national" ones, like Anzac Day and Good Friday, but others can move if a state government chooses. There are strong guidelines for others. My state, Victoria, gives the Queen a birthday on the second Monday in June. The states can also change daylight saving dates on a whim, and do. HiLo48 (talk) 07:56, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Almost every one of the United States has its own state holiday or holidays, such as Victory Day in Rhode Island or Admission Day in California. But about eight holidays are set nationally for Federal employees and generally followed in the states (although not always by private business). Daylight Savings used to be much more a matter of state discretion than it is now, although states that border or straddle time-zone boundaries, such as Arizona and Indiana, have some leeway on whether and where (but not when) to observe it. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:12, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a bit like George Washington, who was originally born on February 11, then was born on February 22, and finally ca.1970 he was born on the third Monday in February. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:26, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * And by the oddest of coincidences, 42 other presidents happen to share the exact same birthday on the third Monday in February. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No coincidence! We vote that way on purpose to keep the used car advertisements restricted to a single day.
 * I think I heard that there was some controversy over rumors that our current president was born in August, and therefore upset the pattern, but he was able to produce a birth certificate proving his case. ... or maybe I'm remembering that wrong. APL (talk) 10:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Did his birth certificate mention how tall he was? HiLo48 (talk) 21:43, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't you see? That's why THEY don't want anyone to see his real birth certificate; not only his birthday, but his height, weight and age (under the constitutional 35 years old) would all be suspiciously different. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:26, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Is the messenger god Hermes associated with water and is war god Ares associated with fire and arrows?
Is the messenger god Hermes associated with water and is war god Ares associated with fire and arrows? Thanks! Neptunekh2 (talk) 19:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not directly. Check the infobox on Greek sea gods under "Aquatic deities" for a list of the Greek gods associated with water.  As for Ares, in his role as war god I'm sure you can say he was associated with arrows, and possibly military incendiaries, but the only weapon he's ever depicted with is a spear, and more often he just has a shield without a spear (perhaps because it's a lot easier to sculpt a shield.) Apollo and Hephaestus are directly associated with archery and fire, respectively. 99.24.223.58 (talk) 21:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Income of at least £34 million a year, every year, for ever
What would £34M a year every year in perpituity pay for in terms of public services in the UK? (Schools, doctors, old people's homes, weekly bin collections etc). Capitalised at say 2.5% (as it appears to be inflation-linked), then its equivalent to £1.36 billion. 92.24.141.227 (talk) 21:47, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * For that salary, I would be delighted to offer my services to the government as an advisor. Looie496 (talk) 23:13, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I would offer my services for half of that, £17 million per year, if Looie does not make a counteroffer. The other half of the fund can go to various charities as described. --188.29.154.125 (talk) 23:42, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we know where this is heading, but if you really want to know, look up the total budgets for various local authorities and you can work out what size of town it would maintain. Or you can get the turnovers of various charities. Itsmejudith (talk) 00:02, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know where this is heading. What is this figure all about?Wikiweek (talk) 11:10, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * This is the amount the British monarchy is supposed to cost. Every week we have a post trying to convince the whole world that the British monarchy is too expensive, not needed, deprecated, whatever. So far, the monarchy was not affected. 88.14.198.240 (talk) 11:29, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The republican group, aptly named "Republic", say that the £34M per year is only the tip of the iceberg, and that if you include things like policing and security, then the true cost is £200 million per year. 92.28.244.187 (talk) 17:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * To answer the question... probably very little. The town council budget of my 90,000 pop town is around £25M a year, while the county council's budget is around £740M a year.  My town is also in need of new hospital but at a cost of around £1,000M I think the town will be struggling on with its old hospital for some time to come.  You see, £34M may sound like a lot (especially if you had it as a pile of used tenners in front of you), but on the scale of the country as a whole, it is hardly worth bothering about.  Astronaut (talk) 14:35, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Its silly to insist on dividing very large amounts of money by 62 million and then claim its virtually nothing. Looks like the money would build 1.36 hospitals or provide all the services for ever for about 150000 people according to Astronauts figures. Hardly "very little". 92.28.247.58 (talk) 18:33, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Umm, I'm a little confused. How would you turn £34M a year into £1.36 billion?  As for paying for council services, and judging from my council tax (which accounts for less than half of the cost of the services - the rest comes from central government and business rates), your £34M a year would only pay for the services to around 15,000 homes; and if you are spending it on council service, you can't build a hospital as well.  Astronaut (talk) 19:45, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * For the first question, I assume we have an article on discounted cash flow. --Trovatore (talk) 19:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Tontine (redux)
Given the discussion above about tontines, what is the etymology of the name of the small settlement in Yorkshire (now best known for the pricey restaurant there) called Cleveland Tontine (it's just south of Ingleby Arncliffe). Mills' Oxford Dictionary of British Place Names doesn't have it (under Tontine or Cleveland Tontine). The OS map calls the (equally tiny) place just south of it "Little Tontine", confirming that it's not just the name of the inn. 87.113.82.26 (talk) 22:10, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * According to this page, the site was developed into an inn in 1804 with financing derived from a tontine subscription. Looie496 (talk) 23:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)