Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 March 14

= March 14 =

Observations about Japan's emperor and cabinet
Like many people I'm following loads of television and internet news coverage of the earthquake and tsunami in Japan. Two questions have come to mind that I haven't been able to find answers for. (1) Has there been any public reaction from the imperial household? I feel sure that if a similar disaster befell a European monarchy, the monarch by now would have at least have issued expressions of condolence, and would quite possibly have made some kind of address to the nation to get people to pull together at a moment of national tragedy, or toured a devastated area. This is not a criticism but an observation. I know the emperor of Japan is not secluded from the people (e.g. he makes new year speeches) so I'm wondering if perhaps the customs around death and mourning in Japan are such that this response would not be proper or expected. Can anyone enlighten me? The only mention of the emperor I've seen is reporting of messages of condolence sent to him by international heads of state. (2) Whenever I've seen PM Naoto Kan in the last few days he's been wearing some kind of bluish overall/donkey jacket rather than a business suit as I would have expected. See for example the video part of the way down this page, where you can see what I mean, and also observe what look like badges or insignia stitched on the arms. I'm sure I also saw footage of the whole cabinet wearing the same kind of jackets but cannot find this online. It's clear from Commons that Kan is not averse to wearing a standard suit jacket, so I'm wondering what the meaning is and if this is his standard attire when not meeting world leaders, or if he's trying to say something about 'getting to work' following the quake. Any ideas? Thanks Wikpedia! 82.46.43.33 (talk) 02:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Regarding the emperor: Japan's emperor was traditional viewed as a God, and, as such, above the daily affairs of the Japanese people. Thus, he had subordinates who would do "mundane things", like dealing with the aftermath of a quake.  This has changed somewhat since WW2, however, when the model of the detached emperor did not serve Japan well.  Still, compared with a European monarch, you will likely still notice less of a "hands-on" approach by the Emperor of Japan. StuRat (talk) 10:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * (1)He expressed his concern on March 12., , and . He always visits the victims of such disasters. See , , , and . (2) It's only political theatrics. Oda Mari (talk) 16:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that about the emperor, Oda Mari; it hasn't been reported in the English-speaking media that I've seen. With regard to your second answer, do you mean to say that the jackets only went on after the earthquake, and Naoto Kan would only wear them during times of disaster when there is a rescue and cleanup operation to oversee? Are they a uniform of something? What's written on the arm badges? Thanks. 82.32.186.24 (talk) 15:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it only went on after the quake. Other cabinet members wear that work clothes too. See, , and . It seems to be a uniform. Probably they want to show that they are ready to go anywhere in case of emergency. Kan usually wears a business suit but he wore the work clothes when he went to Iwo jima. See. Sorry I have no idea what's written on the arm badge. Oda Mari (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Oda Mari. If by any change you feel like answering more silly questions about Japan, I've just put one over on the language refdesk. 82.32.186.24 (talk) 15:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "In an extremely rare appearance, the emperor went on live TV to make his first public comments on the disaster, and urged an all-out rescue effort... The 77-year-old - deeply respected by many Japanese - said: 'I hope from the bottom of my heart that the people will, hand in hand, treat each other with compassion and overcome these difficult times.'"
 * "Japan earthquake: Emperor Akihito 'deeply worried'," BBC, 16 Mar 2011
 * WikiDao   &#9775;  16:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Rubaiyat editions
As a lot of you all know, the first and fifth editions of The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam by Edward FitzGerald are often printed together in one volume. I have some questions: Why is this done? Which version is generally considered superior? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitefox (talk • contribs) 06:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

aid and future museum
I'm not using this site as a crystal ball or anything like that. But by any chance, might there be a telethon and/or a live concert appealing for financial contributions to help the victims of the 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami? Would there also be a future museum in the area, as well?24.90.204.234 (talk) 07:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, quite likely, to all that. In the meantime, you can donate to charities trying to get help through. Haiti still needs help, by the way. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:04, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Considering the relative wealth of each nation, Haiti seems far needier than Japan. StuRat (talk) 10:47, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The Japanese Red Cross has asked for donations. If you wish to donate, check your local Red Cross/Red Cresent's web-site for a Sendai appeal. As you appear to be an American, the US Red Cross's appeal is here. CS Miller (talk) 11:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * There were benefit concerts for the Kobe earthquake held in Japan, although not on the scale of some of the big benefit concerts in the USA or UK. Bryan Adams is reportedly calling for a benefit concert for the recent disaster. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not of the scale you are thinking of, but the Japanese violinist Taro Hakase gave an impromptu concert yesterday in London, and I believe there will be another on Friday. See here. -- Kateshortforbob talk  16:12, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Old buildings in Japan
This is another Japanese-related question. After watching footage of the disaster, I noticed that all the buildings shown in Japan appear to be of fairly recent construction. I am wondering if there are any old, historic edifices such as temples, palaces, or government buildings that exist in modern Japan? Specifically any which pre-date the 20th century. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Most certainly there are very many old buildings in Japan. Specifically the Temples enjoy international attention. One example is the Shosoin from the Nara period. There are many others. --95.33.155.229 (talk) 10:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There are also a lot of old castles. The article Japanese Buddhist architecture may also be of interest. Japanese architecture also contains many examples of old buildings still extant, some dating back to the 7th century, apparently.--Saddhiyama (talk) 10:22, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. What beautiful structures. I hadn't realised there were so many extant.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Japan, like most prosperous places, has seen a lot of redevelopment. Much of this has been by necessity, since nearly all of the major Japanese cities were bombed flat in World War II: the Bombing of Tokyo was more destructive and lethal than either of the Hiroshima or Nagasaki atomic bombings. According to United States strategic bombing of Japan, 67 cities were intensively bombed. Traditional Japanese domestic architecture, with light wood and paper construction and heavy tile roofs was no match for this, nor were such houses easily brought into the late 20th century, so many that survived the war gave way to new development. 29% of Sendai was destroyed: 72% of Hitachi. Happily, Kyoto was considered off-limits to bombing, at the insistence of Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, who had been there on his honeymoon. In consequence, Kyoto has the heaviest concentration of traditional Japanese architecture. I'd also note that most of what we've seen are port areas close to the water (say, within 6km of the sea), which tend not to have ever had much old preservable architecture and which would be more prone to be overbuilt as the seafront was developed.   Acroterion  (talk)  20:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Notice that they haven't attacked Pearl Harbor any more. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:01, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I read somewhere that there is a tradition of re-building periodically some temples made out of non-durable materials such as wood. Whether a 20th-century copy of a 19th-century copy... of a 5th-century temple is the same temple is akin to the question of the ship of Theseus. --Error (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually ship of Theseus mentions Kinkaku-ji and Ise Grand Shrine. --Error (talk) 00:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Double names
In the english speaking world, are there any/many cases of someone naming their child with the same given name more than once. Examples might be Harry Harry Truman, or John John Kennedy. The only likely situation where I can see it occuring is where the parents name the child after a sports team resulting in (say Alan John Frank Harry John Peter Richard John William Arthur Robinson). (Just curious). -- SGBailey (talk) 10:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * There is Major Major Major Major. Quest09 (talk) 11:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A quick article search turns up John John Florence and John John Jesse, although I can't confirm whether they were names given at birth. Warofdreams talk 11:43, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * James James Morrison Morrison Weatherby George Dupree, in the poem "Disobedience" by A.A. Milne. Fictional character. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm sure there have been many John Johnsons and similar names throughout history, and given the tendency to name boys after their fathers, there could many redundant names on the order of John Johnson's son John Johnson. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Not quite answering the question - Henry Henry. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:39, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ... and Alan Alan, James James and Thomas Thomas (several). Gandalf61 (talk) 12:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks guys. -- SGBailey (talk) 14:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Other first/last names (I know, not the same thing, but close) include poets William Carlos Williams and Ford Madox Ford. -- Jayron  32  15:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Lots of William Williamses. And Owen Owen.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:26, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Slightly different to what you're asking but topical enough to include...The boxer George Foreman named all his sons George and (though the article isn't that clear on this) I thought all his daughters too. The version i've heard is that he was concerned he'd get Punch drunk in old age and forget his children's names, but that this way gave him a fighting chance. ny156uk (talk) 16:02, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * My dear maternal grandparents had 5 daughters. The second eldest was named Elizabeth Margaret, the third eldest Margaret Sheila (but she's always been known as Sheila), and the youngest Margaret Therese.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * My brother-in-law is named John David III, his older brother is John David II and their father is John David I.  Corvus cornix  talk  22:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The Earls of Shaftesbury have always had a bit of a thing for the name "Anthony". The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Earls were all called Anthony. Then the 5th Earl died without sons and was succeeded by his younger brother, Cropley. This was clearly a disaster, and so the new 6th Earl did everything he could to prevent a repetition by naming all six of his sons Anthony. This was obviously the way forward, so the 7th Earl followed suit by also having six sons, and also calling all of them Anthony. Unfortunately, there was then a bit of a dearth of sons in the family - the 8th Earl only had one (Anthony), and the 9th only two (Anthony and Anthony), and then the 10th Earl called his younger son Nicholas (well, Nicholas Edmund Anthony - you've got to keep a bit of tradition alive). When he succeeded his elder brother in 2005 as 12th Earl, and became the first Lord Shaftesbury in more than 150 years not to be called Anthony, he clearly felt the weight of history on his shoulders: his first child, a son, born earlier this year, is called... well, I won't spoil the surprise. Proteus (Talk) 23:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Since we've just run down that thread, it bears mentioning that the Antonine Earls of Shaftesbury have nothing on the Henrician House of Reuss, whose male members have ALL been named Henry for hundreds of years. The Reuss Younger Line had a Prince Henry LXVII (67th) which I believe is the highest regnal number ever borne by a ruling Prince.  -- Jayron  32  23:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh and there's also the case of 'Neville Neville' (the father of Premiership footballers Gary Neville and Phil Neville. And Jay-Jay Ockocha...'so good they named him twice' (another footballer though bound to have misspelt his name ny156uk (talk) 16:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If we're in that territory, Boutros Boutros-Ghali. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Jerome K. Jerome as well. CS Miller (talk) 17:16, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Leigh Leigh. Sleigh (talk) 08:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * See also list of people with reduplicated names. ---Sluzzelin talk  10:47, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In today's "Today's featured article" on the WP Main Page (17th March): Anthony Anthony. Alansplodge (talk) 14:42, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

General Knowledge question
Which journal is considered as the world’s first business publication? On the GOOGLE search I got Financial Times but except one site, every where else it is given as the America (USA) 's oldest business magazine. Would appreciate any help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.252.236 (talk) 12:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A quick Google books search shows The Journal of Commerce, first published in 1827, is the oldest business newspaper in the US. --Reference Desker (talk) 13:34, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And you may find this article interesting. --Reference Desker (talk) 13:37, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Lloyd's List is from 1734, but the link provided by Desker says: "....our first evidence of the publication of two kinds of business newspaper, the one called the commodity price current and the other called the exchange rate current. We date the start of the commercial and financial press to these humble but significant beginnings at Antwerp around 1540—although, given the early and continuing publication of them in the Italian language and recognizing the heavy dependence by Low Country merchants on Italian practices and precedents in matters mercantile, one must reserve the possibility of an even earlier origin in the Italian city states, perhaps, as was said above, Venice.16....London had had a commodity price current from as early as the first decade of the seventeenth century.39 By the 1640s, it looked very much like a reduced version of the Amsterdam commodity price current upon which it was modeled.40 All surviving copies from its first sixty years are in French. There was also a daily bills of entry published from 1619, if not before. By the 1670s, there were two commodity price currents being published weekly, by the 1690s, there were three, and, soon after, a fourth. That same decade witnessed the founding in London of two new and different business newspapers—both of which continue to be published today, a marine list and an exchange rate and stock exchange current. In 1716, a London merchant could subscribe to as many as seven different weekly or daily business newspapers, all of them delivered to his door". The Lloyds List article links to this list of the oldest newspapers still published, some of which may be business newspapers: http://www.wan-press.org/article2823.html 92.15.11.100 (talk) 14:42, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If you are interested in books as well as periodical publications, History of economic thought has an overview going back to the ancient Greeks. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

When did the concept of minute arise?
Our article on the minute has no discussion of when (or where) the concept was first used. I'm guessing it wasn't until the age of somewhat precise clocks. Yet people all along must have had and used concepts about short periods of time. --Halcatalyst (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The History section of the Hour article discusses early use of 1/12th the time between sunrise and sunset, though not at what point an hour was first divided into 60 minutes (but perhaps around the same time ). WikiDao    &#9775;  18:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * According to History of timekeeping devices, the first mechanical clock to keep minutes was in 1475, but again that doesn't mean that the concept of the minute as 1/60th of 1/12th of daylight didn't exist for a long time before then. -- Jayron  32  18:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Got a better (unsourced) statement from a Wikipedia article: The article Unit of time cites Abū Rayḥān al-Bīrūnī as presenting the first known usage of the units "minute", "second", and "third" (in successive 1/60th divisions of the hour) in about 1000 AD. However, the al-Biruni article itself makes no mention of this.  The same uncited article also notes Roger Bacon as using the same system some 200 years later, but again the Roger Bacon article makes no direct mention of this fact; though it does note Bacon's open reliance on earlier Muslim scholars (which would fit the connection to Al Biruni) and on Bacon's interest in timekeeping in general (first two sentences of the last paragraph of the Legacy section).  Another posibility extending from Bacon is Robert Grosseteste, who provided much of the groundwork for Bacon.  From my memory, the entire system of timekeeping, in multiples of 12 and 60, dates from the fertile crescent in places like Babylon and Sumer which had a counting system based on those numbers, rather than base-10.  -- Jayron  32  19:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * From the OED:
 * Senses at branch II. arise ultimately from the use of post-classical Latin minutum, minuta, minutia to denote the sixtieth part of a unit in the system of sexagesimal fractions used by ancient and medieval mathematicians. The system originated in Babylonian mathematics and astronomy, and was adopted by Greek-speaking scientists such as Ptolemy, and then by Latin speakers. St Augustine refers to minuta and to minutae minutarum ‘minutes of minutes’, i.e. seconds as terms in use by mathematici.
 * It then mentions Honorius Augustodunensis in his Imago mundi as one of the first to divide and hour rather than a degree although he called them ostenta.  meltBanana  19:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This seems to be al-Biruni's description of dividing up hours and mentioning Jewish and Hindu divisions too.  meltBanana  20:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * See Babylonian mathematics and Sexagesimal. 92.15.1.235 (talk) 23:51, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks to all for your responses. --Halcatalyst (talk) 02:45, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Postumus or Posthumus
Is the painting by John Faed (shown here) actually called "Postumus and Imogen", or is it "Posthumus and Imogen"?

The character in Cymbeline by Bill Shakespear is spelt "Posthumus" - the name in the folio linked in The Tragedy of Cymbeline does indeed say "posthumus" (or, technically, poſthumus).

However, the Roman chappie does indeed seem to be Marcus Cassianius Latinius Postumus.

I'm not sure which spelling the painter used - and web references contradict.

Can anyone clear this one up?


 * The classical Latin form is postumus. Posthumus and related forms (adj. posthumous) that caught on in some languages are based on a false etymology popularized by Isidore of Seville. KarlLohmann (talk) 06:24, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Note, I am looking for the correct title for the painting. Thanks,  Chzz  ► 21:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Christie's say they sold Posthumus and Imogen in 2007.  meltBanana  01:09, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks.  Chzz  ► 08:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

census crime
so it census time in the UK and I was wondering, so on the bit were you have to state your occupation, if you weare involved in an occupation that was essentially crime, like if you were a drug dealer or a bank robber or a pimp ot something like that, and you filled it in as the "occupaiton" on the census, could they then come and arrest you? is it safe to be so scrupulously honest on a census?? Sally james langley (talk) 22:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * They will just put it in a pile with the illegible responses and all the other silly ones. The Census is confidential. But if they had full details of a serious offence, in particular the date on which it was supposed to have occurred, they would have to inform the police, just as you would inform the police if you became aware of the details of a serious offence. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * When I worked for the US 2000 Census, I was trained that we could not report crimes because of the confidentiality issue. I actually observed two crimes while out canvassing. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 23:56, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I was a census enumerator for the 2010 US Census. They pounded the Title 13 laws into our heads the whole week of training. I suspect there are similar laws in the UK. Schyler!  ( one language ) 00:26, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course things could be different in the UK. Blueboar (talk) 01:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I would think if you witnessed someone being murdered or otherwise harmed while you were canvassing, you would have a moral obligation to report it. Assuming they even let you get out alive. But if you see a hooka pipe or something, you would probably ignore it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:40, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I see hookahs all the time - nothing illegal about them. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 14:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Depends on what's in them. They can be used to hold freshly-cut tulips, for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Jedi
Is there a campaign to get "Jedi" onto the list of "officially recognised religions" by volume of respondents, again?
 * You've got to be kidding. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:34, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Prepare to be surprised, Bugs. See Jediism and Jedi census phenomenon.  Dismas |(talk) 06:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It can't be any more hilarious then any other religion. Of course, there's frisbism - where the followers believe that after you die, your spirit goes up on the roof of your house & stays there. GoodDay (talk) 06:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The Jedi religion campaign was strong in Australia last time around, five years ago. The govt said it ignored the figures. This time round (August this year) the Atheist Society is encouraging those who are that cynical about religion to not vote Jedi, but be a little more honest, and to actually choose atheist or agnostic. It's patently obvious that religion figures are inflated by the simplistic way the question is framed, and those who want more recognition for the generally non-religious status of perhaps a majority of Australians are pushing harder. HiLo48 (talk) 06:51, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there a spot for "The Church of Baseball"? Or Cricket, maybe? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There's an option 'Other' allowing one to write in whatever one likes, which I have in fact used (though not to specify Jedi), so one could indeed enter "Church of Baseball" should one choose, Bugs. In case it's not clear from previous answers, the UK National Census is not a route for establishing official recognition of a religion or religious category (though a census office might choose to add a popular 'Other' choice to future forms simply to make their job easier): such recognition may be accorded by the Home Office [Addendum: this function possibly now tranferred to the new Ministry of Justice (MiniJust, anyone?)], for such purposes as official pastoral Prison Visits, on application by a suitable representative body, as has happened with various forms of Paganism under the umbrella of the Pagan Federation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.135 (talk) 17:00, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In my town, Melbourne, it's frequently suggested that our version of football is the most popular religion. Pretty sure that's what my son wrote in. Cricket would definitely work for India. HiLo48 (talk) 07:18, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In England's Church of Cricket, W.G. Grace is God. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Please note the nickname in the Infobox of Gary Ablett, Sr. HiLo48 (talk) 07:49, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Similar in the UK to Australia. The Humanist Society has adverts out encouraging non-believers to tick the "none" box. Jedis will tick "other" and write in "Jedi". And then they will be aggregated with the Jains, Sikhs, Taoists, Baha'i, Caodaists... as just "other". When there are more Jedis than Muslims that's when they will make a Jedi box to tick. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:53, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And you can't stop there. You have to consider Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jediism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Dudeism is this year's stupid internet meme.  meltBanana  13:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Illegal not to return
It says I am breaking the law if I don't fill out the form. Has anyone ever been prosecuted for that? How much trouble did they get in?
 * There is no valid excuse for not filling in the form, and there are plenty of good reasons to do so. But I'd be very surprised if anyone were prosecuted, unless they made a public show of flouting the law. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:33, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, for an American living I presume in America, you know a lot about the informal aspects of British law. 92.15.5.217 (talk) 12:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yup. Sometimes I'm so smart it actually frightens me. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:00, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Baseball Bugs, I don't mean to be rude, but whenever I look at the reference desk as I do from time to time and you're posting, I feel that the signal-to-noise ratio is lowered. In this case you've made a casual opinion statement ("no valid excuse for not filling in the form") which shows little awareness of the reasons why people may not wish to participate, and then made a flat-out wrong speculative claim that prosecutions don't occur. I think it should be a general principle of this forum that anyone posting on large numbers of questions covering different topics should ask themselves whether they are really helping. In many cases, they are, as there are people here who are very good not only at research but also at recognising the limits of their knowledge. This doesn't go for everyone though. 82.32.186.24 (talk) 17:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * IP, whoever you are, I don't mean to be very rude, but you have like 4 edits, so don't go lecturing me. I acknowledge that it appears people can be fined for not returning the form... as they should be. I stand by the statement that there is no valid excuse not to fill out the form. "Not wishing to participate" is NOT a valid excuse. It's an act of pure selfishness with negative consquences in the long haul, even if they don't get fined. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:38, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Americans know best, particularly about things they know nothing about. 92.29.117.90 (talk) 11:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Baseball Bugs, I have "like" lots and lots of edits in all on about two dozens language versions, and I have made the same observation as the anynomous user, so I feel free to lecture. I think it's characteristic that you start off with a personal attack instead of a discussion of facts. You do make insightful comments, and appropriate jokes, but some of your posts have a negative informational value, and I wish that you would be more careful what you post.Sjö (talk) 19:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * here is a news story of someone who was fined for not filling out the 2001 census (same story also here). It notes at the bottom that more than 300 people were prosecuted for failing to fill out the 1991 census. Another from 2001 here. For the exact figures of prosecutions for failing to fill out the 1991 and 2001 forms, see this FOI request. Nanonic (talk) 07:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * There clearly is a valid reason to refuse to answer the form: a person may be concerned the information would be misused. The Japanese American internment in the U.S. made use of census data to locate citizens to lock up in desert camps and force to work 11 hours a day.  For the less paranoid, I would suggest a careful consideration of what happens at the town or city level when neighborhoods are identified as "majority Hispanic" or "majority African-American".  It is true that redlining, the effective denial of city services, hence insurance, hence mortgages, hence construction, hence the loss of home value and the establishment of criminals allowed to operate unhindered in abandoned buildings - yes, this is theoretically behind us.  But is it really?
 * I'm not suggesting people should definitely refrain from participating in the census, especially when it grants political power and city services, but multiple opinions on the point are understandable. Wnt (talk) 00:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not good at reading British legal texts, but there seems to be valid reasons to not return the form, even within the law. If I understand the the Census Order 2000 correctly, persons who are absent from their "dwelling" on census day and the next 6 months don't have to answer their forms. I suppose that there could be exceptions for the mentally incompetent and seriously ill, though I didn't find them.Sjö (talk) 19:29, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Who Framed Roger Rabbit
I've not watched the film Who Framed Roger Rabbit and I have no desire to, but the title caught my curiosity. So, who framed him and why? Could you give a brief summary of their role within the film 62.43.107.11 (talk) 23:01, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Isn't this covered in the Plot section of the article? --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Probably, but the plot section is rather long and I have learning disabilities which make it difficult for me to read large blocks of text and extract specific information 62.43.107.11 (talk) 23:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Roger's wife Jessica Rabbit (who isn't bad, she's just drawn that way) is having an affair (in the movie, playing "patty-cake") with Marvin Acme, owner of Acme Corporation. When Marvin turns up dead, Roger is the prime suspect.  It turns out that Judge Doom, who wishes to bulldoze Toontown (a subsidiary of Acme, and home to all of the cartoon characters) to make way for a freeway, is the real murderer, so Judge Doom is the answer to the question.  -- Jayron  32  23:27, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Although, technically, being the actual murderer doesn't necessarily mean that he also set up the "frame job". StuRat (talk) 23:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * By the way, I'd urge you to reconsider seeing the film. It's really quite good. --Trovatore (talk) 23:32, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Definitely. It's an extraordinary mix of live action and animation. It's the last significant voice work by Mel Blanc. And it's also very entertaining. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:31, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm more interested in 'who framed Roger Korby'. Oh well. GoodDay (talk) 07:06, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. I put off seeing it for 20+ years, then when I finally did I kicked myself for not having gone out and seen it sooner. It's got a style like Dick Tracy (the noir gumshoe feel). i.m.canadian 16:29, 15 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by I.m.canadian (talk • contribs)
 * There's no overstating the terrific job done by Bob Hoskins, who subverted his British accent and adopted that big-city gumshoe quality... and interacted with all these 'toons that weren't there yet. And Jessica Rabbit is hot. She sounds just like Kathleen Turner. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:36, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This is how Bob Hoskins really talks! Alansplodge (talk) 09:46, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's quite a lot better than the original book "Who Censored Roger Rabbit" IMHO, though that has certain charms, like the way that cartoon characters (who are strip cartoon rather than animation) can express themselves in speech balloons, that hang in the air and you can walk round them and look at the other side. --ColinFine (talk) 00:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)