Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 May 13

= May 13 =

Secrets to Osama Bin Laden's success
Osama Bin Laden was an excellent leader of men and an extremely gifted strategist. This is evident because he virtually single handedly led a group of men to plan and execute an attack on one of the most important buildings in a major city in one of the most powerful nations in the world killing thousands.

What are the secrets to Bin Laden's success? He died recently of course but I'm interested in what the experts say. For example, you could give your opinions and also direct me to experts discussing Bin Laden's tactics and secrets to his success and his ability to lead men. More specifically, my question is:

1. How did Bin Laden form the organization Al-Qaeda and how did he become their leader?

2. How did he manage to convince so many people to become terrorists and to engage in suicide bombing? (He must obviously have convinced them of the religion.)

3. How did he manage to communicate with people to plan attacks?

4. Most intriguing is how he managed to execute the attack on the world trade center etc. What strategy did he employ and how exactly did the strategy manage to make an attack on the most powerful nation?

5. How did he manage to convince people to hide him for so long?

Let's make it clear. I don't support Osama Bin Laden, terrorism, killing etc. In fact, I'm against it completely. But we nonetheless cannot deny that Bin Laden was an outstanding leader of men and an outstanding strategist and this is what my question asks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.2.4.186 (talk) 09:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Not sure I agree with you in your claim that he was "an outstanding leader of men" and "an outstanding strategist", but he did have some merit in both fields. Have you tried the extensive literature on the subject? A search on "Osama bin Laden" reveals a lot of relevant hits. Without having read any of them War Inc by Peter Bergen and perhaps Growing Up bin Laden: Osama's Wife and Son Take Us Inside Their Secret World'' by bin Ladens wife and one of his sons seems to possibly contain some of the information you are looking for. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * But of course you could start out by reading our articles on Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda, which are highly informative in their own right. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:29, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * One of his "secrets" was access to plenty of money... AnonMoos (talk) 09:37, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Check out the 9/11 Commission Report. Its early chapters are a great description of the origins of al Qaeda, of bin Laden's own means of supporting it, of the actual logistics and planning that went into the attack. It's free, it's informative, it's a pretty good read. It gives a huge amount of logistical detail. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:49, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I would argue that he wasn't successful. His goal was to ignite a holy war between Muslims and the United States, and thus draw all of the Muslim world into his organization, which would then form a global caliphate.  There's no sign of this happening.  Indeed, the government which was closest to what bin Laden wanted (the Taliban government of Afghanistan) has fallen as a result of his action.  So, his actions seem to have worked counter to his goals.  This is the definition of failure.  The same is true of his lesser goals, like getting the US to withdraw troops from Saudi Arabia and other Muslim nations. StuRat (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * You sure did beat that straw man, StuRat... the OP wasn't suggesting that he was successful at all of his own stated goals, just that he successfully managed to organize a rather complex set of activities. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * He didn't organize any of that, that was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Bin Laden was more of an idea man. He got so many ideas he can't even fight them off! Adam Bishop (talk) 02:56, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The OP mentioned strategy. His strategy was to use major attacks on the US (and others) to attain the goals I listed.  Those failed.  Some of the tactics he employed, on the other hand, such the 9-11 attacks, were successful. StuRat (talk) 08:16, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

It's always intriguing that those who choose to hate someone else want to totally demonise them, condemning everything about them and everything they have done. That's a foolish position to take. People like bin Laden are ONLY able to do the nasty things they do because they are really good at certain things, like motivating "foot soldiers". To ignore that attribute is to guarantee that it will all happen again. Great leaders aren't necessarily nice people. HiLo48 (talk) 00:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He had the money, honey. LOTS OF IT!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:05, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

You're questions suggest that Bin Laden was a leader who was able to "move" a whole people and rally them behind him (Hitler's or Milosevic's style). However, it should be understood that Osama 's organization is an unorthodox and bizarre organization which follows a flavor of Islam which will seem very alien to the billion mulsims worldwide. Of course that fact that his tiny organization is notable is because of its spectacular actions. Having said that, Bin Laden was no charismatic leader, but he was able to form a very active clique around him, with the help of his fortune and US and Saudi support. How did he convince his people to join him and help him, is similar to how the KKK or gangs recruit: a mix of prejudice, propaganda and social factors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.82.190.163 (talk) 10:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say bin Laden's radical Muslim fundamentalism was all that rare. There are many in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Chechnya, Sudan, and Somalia which agreed with him.  Yes, it's a minority of the Muslim world, but even 10% would still be a hundred million. StuRat (talk) 06:57, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Question of jews and Judaism
Is every Jews descended from the Israelites? If not, then how can Jews be an ethnic when it's just a religion? Saying someone is of Jewish descent is like someone I'm of Christian because my mother is Christian. Neptunekh2 (talk) 13:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a complicated subject, but for starters, there is Conversion_to_Judaism, which does not have any lineage / ethnic requirements. So presumably there are Jewish people who are not directly descended from Israelites. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You can also get a feel for the controversy and history of the topic at who_is_a_jew. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Judaism is quite unlike Christianity, in the way in which you are Jewish either if you are born Jewish, or if you convert. Hence it is both an ethnicity and a religion. But here's where it gets quirky and controversial: there's no such thing, from a traditional Jewish religious perspective, as "being of Jewish descent". Either your mother is Jewish, or she isn't. If she is, you are. If she isn't, you aren't. On the other hand, your father could be Muslim, Christian, Bahai, Hindu or indeed all (or none) of them and you're still Jewish if your mother is. Most other ethnicities just don't work like that. And you're Jewish even if you know nothing, keep nothing and don't want to be Jewish. Most other religions just don't work like that, either. --Dweller (talk) 13:38, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * This whole question rather depends on whether you are referring to the Jewish race (which, by definition, is descended from the Israelites, although issues such as conversion, intermarriage and the ten lost tribes complicate this) or the Jewish religion, which, as others have explained, is defined differently by, say, Orthodox Judaism, Reform Judaism and Liberal Judaism, and is a much trickier issue. ╟─ Treasury Tag ►  quaestor  ─╢ 13:47, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * In the Soviet Union, Judaism was an ethnic group according to the practical criterion that there was a slot on your Soviet ID documents where ethnicity went, and "Jewish" was one of the standard answers that was filled in to that slot, and you could be classified as ethnically Jewish even if you were the most flamingly militant atheist in your personal religious convictions.
 * Similarly, in the United States of America right now, the majority of American Jews have ancestors that lived in the current-day countries of Germany, Poland, and Ukraine, but very few Jews consider themselves to be German-Americans, Polish-Americans, or Ukrainian-Americans, or would be considered to be such by other German-Americans, Polish-Americans, or Ukrainian-Americans (except for a rather small number of very recent immigrants or particular special cases). In the political and cultural system of the United States, "Jewish-Americans" function like other ethnic-cultural interest groups, such as "Greek-Americans", "Japanese-Americans" etc., and there are many Americans who would never dream of renouncing their Jewish ethnic-cultural heritage, even if their interest or belief in the Jewish religion in itself is tepid or zero... AnonMoos (talk) 14:59, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Question on the "mother is Jewish" definition... Suppose you have a woman who's father was Jewish, and mother was not. She is raised Jewish.  I understand that some would say the woman in question is not Jewish (since her mother is not).  But what about her children? (In logic, if she's not considered Jewish her children shouldn't be considered Jewish... but I am fully aware that religious doctrine does not always follow logic).   Blueboar (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * According to the traditional definition, Judaism is transmitted only by conversion or by matrilineality. So in your example, Orthodox rabbis such as Jonathan Sacks would not consider the woman to be Jewish, because her mother was not Jewish. And since she is not Jewish, her children wouldn't be either, because they don't have a Jewish mother. In fact, as far as I'm aware, only two Jewish religious organisations in the world – Liberal Judaism in the UK and the Union for Reform Judaism in the States – accept patrilineal descent. There's a very interesting fact-sheet on the topic available here – ╟─ Treasury Tag ►  First Secretary of State  ─╢ 18:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So the children and grand children of a female convert are not Jewish... on down through time? Wow, that's strict. Blueboar (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I think you misunderstand, Blueboar. Your question was about a woman who was "raised Jewish". Merely to be raised in the tradition would not make her a Jew and it is then true that none of her descendents, unless they converted, would be Jewish. However, if she converted to Judaism, as your preceding comment states, then her offspring and their subsequent descendents would be Jewish. Bielle (talk) 18:44, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As a Liberal Jew, I agree that the descent-by-mother criterion is strict, but you've misunderstood what I said. The children of a female convert to Judaism are considered Jewish, assuming that they were below the 'age of chinuch (education)' at the time of conversion, because their mother is Jewish. (The age of chinuch varies between about 5 and 13 according to traditions.) Your scenario above, however, didn't mention conversion, just being raised Jewish, which is a different matter altogether. ╟─ Treasury Tag ►  without portfolio  ─╢ 18:51, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * TreasuryTag, can you provide any refs for the "age of chinuch" rule? As I understand it, converting to Judaism does not automatically convert one's (earlier born) children. The Talmud even discusses the question of a pregnant woman - does her conversion include her fetus? As to converting children to Judaism, that's a topic in itself. Given that they can't consent, they have the right to renounce their conversion after they reach bar/bat mitzvah. However, they must do so immediately upon reaching bar/bat mitzvah (or when they discover their "childhood conversion" assuming this only happens later). If they fail to do so, they become Jewish permanently and irrevocably. Eliyohub (talk) 10:50, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The website "Judaism 101" has this to say:


 * "A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism."


 * "It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do." Bus stop (talk) 18:56, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Got it... sorry, I was assuming that being raised Jewish would include the formal conversion process. But, of course, that is not always the case. Blueboar (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * By the way, in traditional legal interpretation Jewish identity descends through the mother, but tribal membership or Cohen status descends through the father....AnonMoos (talk) 19:41, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Moreover, not all religious Jews trace Jewish identity through the mother: see Karaite Judaism. Nyttend (talk) 03:13, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

2 questions about Northern Canada
1. What is the most northern community in the North-West_Territories Canada? 2. I was looking for a website for Grise_Fiord Nunavut but I couldn't find one. Also can anyone name any notable people from Neptunekh2 (talk) 14:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * As for your first question, the northernmost inhabited community in the Northwest Territories appears to be Sachs Harbour. Marco polo (talk) 17:42, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As for your second question, I, too, cannot find a community website for Grise Fiord. I am guessing that the village is so small that 1) everybody knows everybody, and 2) it is probably easier to knock on your neighbor's door than try to get information about the village from the internet. I doubt that the village has a fast connection.  Among the most notable living people from Grise Fiord is apparently Looty Pijamini.  Although he lacks a Wikipedia article, he gets a number of Google hits (such as this), perhaps enough to warrant an article. Marco polo (talk) 17:55, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Neptunekh2, as it says above, "Please, post your question on only one section of the reference desk." (I will repeat this warning on the Miscellaneous Desk.) BrainyBabe (talk) 10:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

The History of Roses Five and Dime Stores
In researching the history of Roses five and dime stores, I noticed that the company is said to have been "founded in Henderson, NC." However, I've heard from a number of reliable sources that the first store operated by the founder of the Roses chain was in Littleton, NC. That tiny, original Roses store is still standing at 202 E North Main Street in Littleton. The quaint little store has been partially restored, is undergoing further restoration, and is currently a flower shop. If anyone has information regarding the history of the Roses chain or the original Roses store in Littleton, I would love to hear from them.

Thank you.

W. Gid Alston [paper mail and e-mail addresses removed per policy for the safety of the poster] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.74.227.63 (talk) 14:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Jewish practices
Hello all! What are some everyday practices or behaviors that would imply a given person is Jewish? (besides the dietary things and not working on Shabbos) I'm not looking for anti-semitic stereotypes, but for actual documented practices, preferably those that most people aren't familiar with. This is just out of curiosity and not out of any anti-semitic intent. Thanks. 72.128.95.0 (talk) 23:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Nonobservant Jews wouldn't have any "practices" that were specifically Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Observant males might wear a yarmulkah. Observant woman also wear head coverings, ranging from a kippah to a wig. Bielle (talk) 23:58, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Note that a Kippah and a Yarmulke are the same thing, just in a different language - Kippah is the Hebrew word for the head covering, Yarmulke is the (more well known) Yiddish word.


 * This question does depend a lot on the individual Jew - Some are non-practicing, whereas even within different denominations, practices vary widely. For example, whereas the kippah is one of the most well known symbols of a practicing Jew, many members of Reform Judaism don't wear any head coverings. Some more modern accessories like Star of David necklaces and the like could also be a give away.


 * That said, prayers are one give away - a Jew should recite the Shema Yisrael twice a day, for example. More are listed at List of Jewish prayers and blessings. In addition to a kippah, some more conservative Jews will also wear Tzitzit, and have grown out their sidelocks into Peyos. Should a Jew walk past a Mezuzah, common on the doorpost of many Jews, one should touch it and then kiss the hand afterwards.


 * Besides the prayers said over food, (since not all Jews say them,) what they chose to eat may also help define them as a Jew that is keeping kosher. Most people know that Jews do not eat pig, but Kashrut laws also prohibit eating shellfish (such as shrimp or lobster) or eating meat and dairy products together, e.x., a cheeseburger is not kosher.


 * In addition to not working on Shabbos, there are other restrictions. One may not light a fire (or turn on electricity), drive a car, perform a creative work, or walk more than 3000 paces outside the city.


 * They may also use certain words or phrases that are very common with Jews, though no so much as with other groups, like saying HaShem instead of God, or referring to someone Of blessed memory after they have passed. In lighter conversations, one may use words from their native Hebrew or Yiddish, such as Oy vey or Goyim, or English words like Gentile. If they are writing, you may see them write HaShem instead of God, or perhaps the common G-d, like the template I've used here. They may also date things in the Hebrew Calendar. :)


 * I'm sure there are other things, but I can't think of any right now. Hopefully that helps. Avic ennasis   @ 03:52, 10 Iyar 5771 / 14 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Orthodox Jewish women never wear shorts or short skirts, which are regarded as immodest, and many avoid wearing pants (trousers) because of the Torah's ban on wearing the other sex's clothing. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

"preferably those that most people aren't familiar with"... OK. Religious Jews may have labels in their jackets indicating they've been checked for Shaatnez. They will try very hard to avoid being alone with a person of the opposite sex (other than spouses etc). They won't have milk in their cup of tea or coffee for a period of time after eating meat. Are those obscure enough? --Dweller (talk) 13:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, "those that most people aren't familiar with"... ". Jews must not speak, read, write, or even believe Lashon hara, so forget having any Orthodox Jewish gossip rags. Truth is not a defence! Consuming insects is strictly forbidden (even more so than pork), so religious jews generally either scrub vegetables such as lettuce with soap, or inspect each leaf individually against the sun for aphids or the like. The Mishnah Berurah mentions that when dressing, a jew should put on his right shoe first, then his left. He should however tie the left shoe first. Jews also have a Mezuzah on almost every door of their homes (though toilets, laundy rooms and bathrooms are exempt). A male Jew must not wear a four-cornered garment by day unless it has Tzitzit on it. The laws of Niddah mean married jewish couples spend part of every month without even being allowed to touch each other (unless the wife is pregnant, breastfeeding, or menopausal). It's considered a time for them to build their intimacy with each other on a non-physical level. A Kohen must not enter a cemetery or any building with contains a corpse (there are limited exceptions here). On the festival of Sukkot jews hold and wave the Four Species. Hope all this helps! I'm Jewish myself, so I assure you there is no malicious intent here. Eliyohub (talk) 11:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)