Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 November 23

= November 23 =

Are criminals guilty?
If one part of them are motivated by social factors, and the other by psychological problems, who is really free to commit a crime? What is the purpose of imprisoning them under this circumstances? Quest09 (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I consider myself somewhat liberal on social matters, but even I would never argue that nobody should ever be punished for anything. StuRat (talk) 01:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Sentence_(law) Fifelfoo (talk) 01:11, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * (OR) By being in prison (or punished in some other way), they have another set of social factors which will motivate them to (hopefully) change their behaviour.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  01:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, not punishing people would make the world worse than Somalia. But, doesn't punishment imply free will? And what if there is no free will, but just the illusion of it? Quest09 (talk) 02:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Then we are all predestined to either punish or not punish criminals, so there's no decision to be made. StuRat (talk) 02:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Whether one believes in free will or not, a justice system based primarily in the idea that people are usually responsible for their own actions seems to produce societies that would function better than the alternative. If ultimate free will is a convenient fiction, so be it. But even if you regarded people as totally deterministic robots, it would still make sense to take the disruptive and destructive and "defective" versions and put them somewhere apart from the rest of society, if you value the functioning of society. It would not be a standard concept of "justice," which implies moral retribution, but would look functionally similar in many circumstances. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * A useful analogy might be to consider the way we block vandals on Wikipedia. It's funny how justice seems so abstract when we consider real world crimes, and so tangible when we think of our online community. IBE (talk) 03:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Note that theoretically at least, we aren't supposed to punish people on wikipedia. Blocks and bans are intended to be preventative, meaning they are supposed to stop people from continuing to damage wikipedia in some way. Before anyone comes to dispute this, I said theoretically because I acknowledge that may not always be how things work out in practice. While criminal justice is often partially preventative as well i.e. people are put in jail or whatever so they can't commit crimes and also with the idea it may help them reform or with the idea the existence of the punishment will discourage people from doing the crime which leads to the punishment (again whether or not this all works out in practice is besides my point), if you're talking 'punishment' and 'justice' that tends to suggest you have some belief that it's the 'right' thing to do out of some sense of fairness or righting wrongs and are not looking at it from a purely preventative viewpoint. Nil Einne (talk) 05:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Trick question: criminals are guilty by definition. Suspects or defendants may be innocent. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Samuel Butler's satire Erewhon imagines a society where criminals are treated as if they were sick (and sick people are treated as criminals). --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a very amusing read. In Erewhon, you could excuse yourself from an unwanted social function by saying that you "had the socks"; in other words, you had stolen some socks and needed time to recuperate. Alansplodge (talk) 13:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * See the article on punishment. Do an internet search for 'just dessert punishment'.  Read the essay and books of the criminal law legal scholar Professor Paul H. Robinson of the University of Pennsylvania School of Law.  It is difficult to determine what exactly it is that you are asking, but I think it is the general question, "why do we punish, whom do we punish, and how do we punish?"  Scholars have written books about the subject, some of which you can find online.  The wikipedia articles should point you in the right direction to get answers for yourself.  Indeed, the article on punishment provides most of the vocabulary for anyone to find the answers themselves.  Your question may have to do with theories of justice, which is an even longer topic.  Good luck. Gx872op (talk) 14:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that should be 'just desert punishment'. Dru of Id (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Dessert punishment? No dessert, if you don't behave. 88.8.74.46 (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

How does Louisiana's FLES work?
I'm reading this PhD thesis on the impact of foreign language education on academic achievement in other areas, and although I'm slightly skeptical about the claims (foreign language helping all academic scores, including maths) I can't see any obvious flaws in the design. Still, it uses an experimental group from Louisiana's Foreign Language in Elementary Schools program. Can anyone tell me how this works (or perhaps more precisely how it worked in 2000-2003, but I'll take any info I can get)? Are foreign languages compulsory? I should add that I can't find where the author explicitly states whether she included all students in those schools in the experimental group, or just the ones doing foreign languages, so the question may be moot, but it looks like it could be an important factor. It's sort of homework (PhD) but I can't find the information online. Many thanks, IBE (talk) 03:58, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * At the top of page 35, it states:

Limitations of the Study

The present study is not framed in a true experimental research design with random assignment of subjects to treatment and control groups.


 * Thus, it may very well be that students who enter the foreign language program are more intelligent, better motivated, and have parents pushing them to succeed. These factors would also be expected to result in improved performance in other test areas.  So, perhaps the conclusion should be "students destined to be successful also tend to take a foreign language", not "taking a foreign language leads to success". StuRat (talk) 05:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Good on you for looking that up - thanks for the effort. I was aware of that part of the thesis, but it does not quite undermine it. The experiment involved two groups, one taken from schools where they do not have foreign language classes (control group) and the other from those where they do (experimental group). The schools and the participants were matched as closely as possible on various criteria (socioeconomic status etc.), so there is some strength to the design. Those schools without a foreign language program had applied for an exemption on the grounds of funding problems, so there is at least some difference there - possibly significant. But I'm not sure it's enough, so I'm hoping someone knows how it works in Louisiana, because there could be systematic differences I am not aware of. IBE (talk) 05:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, that sounds highly significant. Since schools in the US are funded locally, that probably means those schools without the program are in poorer areas.  Perhaps they did pick the richest kids out of the poor areas for the comparison, but they still are competing against a peer group which may lack the economic incentive to study, seeing no jobs in their future in any case, and this may make them not feel the need to try as hard as students in richer areas.  In poor areas the students also face other problems, like crime and gangs, which may diminish school achievement.  The poorer schools may also lack the quality teachers and facilities (such as computers) present in the richer schools. StuRat (talk) 05:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. But how local is local? Schools in the treatment group were matched with other schools in the same parish (a block design I think), apart from three schools where it wasn't possible. "Parish" may be a term specific to Louisiana (not sure here) and the report states that exemptions are (typically) granted at the parish level (p80). Presumably, the exemption being granted, schools are free to choose, and a parish can select some schools for FLES programs. The schools could still differ, however, perhaps significantly. Am I right? IBE (talk) 06:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * A "parish" in Louisiana is equivalent to what would be a "county" in most other U.S. states... AnonMoos (talk) 11:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * To clarify, a Louisiana "parish" can cover an area of hundreds of square miles (or more than 1,000 square km) and can include towns or suburban districts of vastly different socioeconomic status. Marco polo (talk) 15:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Since no one linked it, List of parishes in Louisiana has some basic information. But yes, the above are basically correct.  Louisianna uses the word "parish" to describe the entity the other states call "counties".  Otherwise, they are functionally identical.  -- Jayron  32  01:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to all for helping me to clarify some of my thoughts. Still curious about how the FLES system works, if anyone chances along, but this has helped me a lot. IBE (talk) 11:24, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Sources for paintings

 * File:Charles Christiaan, Prince of Nassau.jpg
 * File:Phillipe de Rullecort.jpg
 * File:John Burroughs Hopkins.jpg

All three of these images are rightly tagged for deletion because they have no license tags. While they may be recent, I'm guessing that they're old enough to be PD-art (nowadays, who produces paintings of soldiers, sailors, or princes of small states from the 18th century?), but I can't find these images online except at the pages that their file descriptions attribute as their sources. Can anyone find more information about these paintings? Google simply gives me Wikipedia and mirrors. Nyttend (talk) 05:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The first is: Louise Élisabeth Vigée Le Brun's The Prince of Nassau, 1776, Indianapolis Museum of Art, Indiana, USA. Rmhermen (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The third is "Portrait of John B. Hopkins c1776. Artist unknown, but subject name written on back of painting sold on eBay 2004." Rmhermen (talk) 07:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Speed of Circulation of Various US Coins?
Is there any data available for how many transactions, on average, various US coins go through before ending up back at a bank? I'm particularly interested in data related to the Penny which I have a suspicion would have very low transaction numbers. Thanks in advance for any help. --CGPGrey (talk) 07:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Purchasing Power of a Penny in 1793?
Is there a way to find an estimate of the purchasing power of a Penny around the time of its creation (1792/1793) as compared to today? --CGPGrey (talk) 10:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * United States dollar has a table which suggests a 30-fold decrease in buying power from 1790 to 2010. There are various websites with tables and online calculators; I'm not sure which is most reliable but Measuring Worth using the Consumer Price Index says a cent in 1793 is worth 23 cents today. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That table is sourced from the Measuring Worth site. Apparently all data pre-1913 are estimates prone to recalculation, so results do change over time. This probably explains the discrepancy. FWIW, the website's founders and Board of Advisors seem to have excellent credentials. Dalliance (talk) 13:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I tried a different tack: this 1793 magazine published in London includes a letter from America noting that trade was very brisk but labor prices have skyrocketed, and that "Wrights and masons are now not content with two dollars a day." I tried surveying almanacs hoping to find typical commodity prices but no luck so far.  This sort of thing is what the sorts of links posted above do in the end when coming up with their estimates.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

This was recently asked and answered and you could check the archives. In 2010, the relative worth of $0.01 from 1793 is:
 * $0.23	 using the Consumer Price Index
 * $0.22	 using the GDP deflator
 * $3.49	 using the unskilled wage
 * $9.44	 using the Production Worker Compensation
 * $8.10	 using the nominal GDP per capita
 * $584.00	 using the relative share of GDP

Samuel H. Williamson, "Seven Ways to Compute the Relative Value of a U.S. Dollar Amount, 1774 to present," MeasuringWorth, 2011. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, to claim my off wikipedia experience, I would strongly suggest that you use nominal share of GDP per capita as this better indicates the class war relationship, the concentration of capital, and the emiseration of the working class. Using a CPI index, when the Consumption Bundle receives productivity improvements, but wages don't, indicates that you have taken a clear political position in favour of the emiseration of workers. "Unskilled wage" has problems as a long term comparator, as wages are held down below productivity levels; similarly with "Production worker compensation". Fifelfoo (talk) 22:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If you'd rather not adopt Fifelfoo's  politicalized approach (or, his / her ideology), then CPI is the most commonly used deflator for these purposes. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Europe nations type of government
Which European nations used a different system to vote MPs in the government besides First-past-the-post system used in United Kingdom? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.149.44 (talk) 16:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Many use some form of Proportional representation: see this section which covers the whole world rather than just Europe. --Colapeninsula (talk) 16:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The French use a two-round run-off voting system for the National Assembly of France, their lower house.--Colapeninsula (talk) 16:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In Europe, Britain is unique with FPTP. The French come closest with run-off voting, everyone else uses some form of PR, be it STV, Closed/Open party lists, whichever formula, etc. --Saalstin (talk) 20:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quite unique: the House of Representatives of Belarus is elected on a first-past-the-post basis. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Aaaah, bless the last Soviet state. Such wonderful company to share --Saalstin (talk) 23:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Did Luther really get diarrhea from Kosher food?
So the wikipedia article on Luther and Anti-Semitism used to say that Luther's anti-semitism began when he ate Kosher food and got violent diarrhea. I assumed it was vandalism, because all my google hits lead back to wikipedia.

This was the quote on the Martin Luther and antisemitism : "A few years later, in 1528, Luther reported a nearly fatal bout of diarrhea brought on by his consumption of Kosher food. In a letter to Melancthon, Luther suggested that the Jewish community had attempted to poison him. Luther further suggested that Kosher foods, which he believed to be disagreeable with the constitution of Gentiles, were eaten by the Jews (who, presumably, would not experience adverse effects from their consumption) as a show of superiority over the Gentiles and as a means of separating themselves from the mainstream German culture. He suggested that Kosher foods be banned from Christian nations."

But now I was reading Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy by Eric Metaxas and I came across this passage: http://books.google.com/books?id=qsjhrs_SKvgC&pg=PT76&dq=luther+kosher+1528&hl=en&ei=HTXNToKDDOfL0QGG3cEO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=diarrhea&f=false

"The troubles started in 1528 when, after a large meal of kosher food, he suffered a shattering attack of diarrhea. ... But the tragicomedy became purest tragedy when, three years before his death, Luther advocated actions against the"

I'm wondering if perhaps the author borrowed this from wikipedia without doing the research or if there really is truth to this story?

--Gary123 (talk) 18:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I had a bit of trouble finding the original edit that added that bit of information to the article, since the Martin Luther and antisemitism was created as an amalgam between parts from several articles. But I managed to find it: It was originally added to the On the Jews and Their Lies article September 15 2007 by an IP with just this single edit to their name. So despite AFG and all I am fairly certain that it was actually a hoax edit which has managed to stay in the article on account the fairly low amount of editors working on those specific articles. --Saddhiyama (talk) 18:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * And regarding Eric Metaxas, well he is no stranger to Wikipedia. --Saddhiyama (talk) 18:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * That paragraph no longer exists in the article though. It was removed in November of 2010 by an IP (that is currently blocked btw) here. How did you find the original wikipedia source? Shadowjams (talk) 20:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

edgar degas
on your impressionist painters page, there is no inclusion in the "D" section of one of the core members of the impressionist movement, Edgar Degas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.209.115.229 (talk) 22:04, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure which page you mean - there is no page titled Impressionist painters (and, oddly, no redirect). On the page about Impressionism, there is quite extensive mention of Degas, and several of his pictures are shown.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe Category:Impressionist painters? Monet's in that main category, but Degas is in the sub-category "French Impressionist painters‎", which only has three members. (And Cezanne is only in Category:Post-impressionist_painters, and so on - categorization is a task that never gets completed.) Card Zero  (talk) 00:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)