Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 October 31

= October 31 =

African immigrants in U.K. from british colonies of Africa
Which cities of United Kingdom have significant population of African immigrants from former British colonies in Africa? e.g. Nigeria, sierra leone, etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.149.7 (talk) 04:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Foreign-born population of the United Kingdom looks like a good starting point for you to do your research. -- Jayron  32  04:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Although it only provides 2001 information (as the 2011 census results are not yet available), you may find Table KS6 here provides relevant information - though it deals with people of African "ethnic groups" generally, not specific former colonies. The simple answer is London.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to be flippant here, but I would say the answer the OP's question is: "All of them" (ie every city in the UK has a significant population of African immigrants Nigeria, Kenya, Sierra Leone, etc).
 * It might help if the OP were to define what a "significant" population is (is "significance" based on raw numbers, having more than a given number of immigrants living in the city? is it based on the percentage of immigrants compared to the total number of citizens? is it based on the cultural impact that the immigrant population has on the city?)... the OP also needs to define "immigrant" -  (are we limited to first generation immigrants who personally moved to the UK from Africa, or do we include their children/grand children... people of recent African descent who were born and grew up in the UK?).  Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say Scottish cities don't have a significant population of African origin. Quest09 (talk) 15:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Neither does Belfast.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:54, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Or Plymouth (so probably "all of them" wasn't helpful). Alansplodge (talk) 16:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Also not Wells, Lichfield, or Ely, Cambridgeshire, I suspect. --Colapeninsula (talk) 16:06, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * According to Black people in Ireland "At the time of the 2001 UK Census, of the total population (1,685,267); 255 people described their ethnicity as Black Caribbean, 494 as Black African and 387 as Other Black, meaning that the total Black population was 1,136. These figures do not include individuals who described themselves as being of mixed-race" so it does seem questionable if any cities in Northern Ireland had a significant population of African origin in 2001 although I'm confused by the mixed-race bit (is mixed-race a specific category or is it excluding anyone who said they were say 'Black African' and 'Chinese' or 'White Irish' (I don't know if the later was an actual category)). Black Scottish people notes in the infobox that in the 2001 census Scotland had 5118 people identifying as Black African (Black Caribbean - 1,778 & Black Scottish/Other Black - 1,129) although suggests Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen have a significant of Black Scottish people (but significant is undefined). It also suggests the percentage is likely to be much higher now. As has been noted, the OP's question is unclear. I presume they are excluding Black Caribbean immigrants, even if they can trace their ancestry to what's now Nigeria or whatever but this wasn't clearly specified. Are they including white/European people from said colonies? (Black African obviously includes people the OP is not interested in like French colonies in Africa.) Nil Einne (talk) 16:33, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Returning to the 2001 census source that I helpfully identified before people threw out random less helpful factoids, we see that the percentage who self-described as both black and African was 0.97% over England as a whole. The only urban areas with percentages higher than that were London (5.28%), Slough (1.91%), Luton (1.74%), Manchester (1.69%), Reading (1.55%), Milton Keynes (1.25%), Leicester (1.23%) and Oxford (1.05%).  Not all of those are defined administratively as "cities", but generally "city" is taken to mean any substantial urban area.  I haven't checked for Scotland or NI, but the figures are likely to be lower.  So in summary, my initial suggestion that "the simple answer is London" was quite accurate.  Thank you.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

As a side-question: I wonder why are there so little people of African origin in Scotland and N. Ireland. Those who can live in England can also live in the former regions. And Glasgow and Belfast were definitely economic heavy weights in the past, and therefore, able to attract lots of immigrants. 88.9.210.218 (talk) 22:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between "people of African origin" - by which I assume you mean descendants of slaves moved from Africa to the West Indies, who then migrated from the Caribbean to the UK over the past 60 or so years - and "African immigrants" - which I assumed meant people who moved directly from Africa to the UK, over the last 40 or so years. The first group mainly moved to where jobs were available at that time, and where communities of similar origin became established - and they were mainly in England (although there were also earlier communities in some ports like Cardiff).  The second group mainly moved either for higher education or as refugees (for instance, from Somalia), and may have a more complex distribution pattern.  Glasgow, Belfast and (for example) South Wales were "economic heavyweights" during periods before many of these population movements occurred, but over the last 60 years or so have tended to have high unemployment.  The "economic heavyweight" over that period has been, primarily, London and the South East of England.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * By "people of African origin" I mean Blacks, but was trying to be PC. I think I expressed myself poorly, which is often the case by PC expressions. 88.9.210.218 (talk) 00:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe "black people" would be more polite than "blacks", which is considered rather derogatory in most Englissh speaking countries. It's a question of good manners rather than political correctness. Alansplodge (talk) 09:21, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a lot more information at the article on Black British, including a summary of distribution patterns. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for British and Commonwealth usage, but in the United States, "blacks" is an acceptable term, although some writers prefer to use "African-American" (which of course, does not include all black people in the world, though I have seen amusing instances of careless or too-timid writers using it that way). Textorus (talk) 00:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The term "blacks" would certainly tend to be avoided in the UK. There are Afro-Caribbean communities of course, but (per Alansplodge) most thoughtful British people would avoid simplistic categorisations of individuals based on their melanin level.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As a child in the segregated South, my parents strictly cautioned me never to refer to people as black in their hearing, which was very rude; colored was the polite word, and 'Negro' was the formal term. But then by the time I was in high school, Black is beautiful reversed all those ideas, and it became a sin to say anything but black.  Your practice may be different in Britain, and that's fine, but the point is that sensitivities, and therefore good manners, vary from time to time and place to place.  What's accepted as ordinary, neutral speech in one country may not be in another, depending on many factors.  Textorus (talk) 16:57, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In Northern Ireland, the amount of immigration has traditionally been quite small up until the last decade or so. Less diverse employment opportunities, fewer employment oppportunities generally, relative geographic isolation compared to mainland UK, the large number of small villages and fewer large cities (where immigrants tend to live), and perhaps most significantly, The Troubles, have discouraged immigration. Throughout the Troubles, Northern Ireland experienced a net decrease in population every year, then an brief increase in the early 90s, and another when the EU was expanded around five years ago. It has recently dipped again, probably for economic reasons. (However, according to this, net migration from the UK generally increased during the 70s and 80s.) From personal observation, the black population is still comparatively tiny compared to the Asian and Eastern European populations; this report gives a reasonable historical overview, but it's difficult to get statistics about people who have immigrated from other parts of the UK, as opposed to international migration. --  Kateshortforbob talk  14:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A Nigerian immigrant was one of three people killed in a bomb placed in a train going from Lisburn to Belfast in 1980.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:08, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Stratego
What is the name of the game which is stratego or L'Attaque with navy and airforce? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  16:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * English Wikipedia doesn't have any entry on it, but French Wikipedia suggests that the game is called "Les Grands Amiraux". It sounds like a mainly french version of Stratego with navy and air force.  See fr:Les Grands Amiraux.  -- Jayron  32  18:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Good find. I remember there was an English version in c.1960. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  18:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The English version was called "Admirals" and was supposedly published in 1972, so you may be off by a few years. See .  -- Jayron  32  18:37, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well done. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  18:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello there - you might to check out the following links as well :-


 * L'Attaque - the original 1909 land warfare game at.
 * Dover Patrol - the naval variant from 1919 at.
 * Aviation: The Aerial Tactics Game of Attack and Defence the 1925 air variant at.
 * Tri-Tactics - the combined warfare variant from 1932 at.


 * And possible Risk (game). Mitch Ames (talk) 11:49, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 20:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Very well done. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  23:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Publication date of Alexis de Tocqueville's "What prevents the French from having good colonies?"
Does anybody know when the above text was published. Most internet sources suggest that it was written in 1833, but I'm unsure as to the initial publication date (potentially around 1837?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.27.197 (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This PDF document (p. 84) says Tocqueville intended to include the essay in his and Gustave de Beaumont's Du système pénitentiaire aux États-unis, et de son application en France (1833), but in the event it wasn't actually published until after Tocqueville's death in Beaumont's edition of his Oeuvres et correspondance inédites (1861). --Antiquary (talk) 21:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Parents of multiple monarchs of different sexes
Calling all royal experts. A handful of people throughout history have had the distinction of being the parent of more than one monarch. For example, Catherine de' Medici and Henri II of France were parents of three kings of France: Francis II, Charles IX and Henri III (and also 2 queens consort, but they're not relevant to my enquiry); and George V of the UK and Queen Mary were the parents of both Edward VIII and George VI.

I'm interested in the sub-set of people who were parents of both a king and a queen regnant (at least one of each). The only example I can readily bring to mind is Henry VIII of England, who fathered Mary I, Elizabeth I and Edward VI. Are there any other cases? We don't have a Category:Parents of monarchs to help with this search. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  21:45, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * John II of Castile was the father of both Henry IV of Castile and Isabella I of Castile (although they had different mothers). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Amalric I and Agnes of Courtenay were parents of Sibylla of Jerusalem and Baldwin IV, both rulers in their own right. Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * David Soslan and Tamar of Georgia were father and mother of George IV of Georgia and Rusudan of Georgia; Charles III of Naples and Margaret of Durazzo had Ladislaus of Naples and Joan II of Naples; and Charles XI of Sweden and Ulrika Eleonora of Denmark had Charles XII of Sweden and Ulrika Eleonora, Queen of Sweden. One good way of finding these people, by the way, is by Googling the phrase "succeeded her brother".  There are certainly more to be found if you carry on looking longer than I did. --Antiquary (talk) 22:56, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the excellent answers so far, folks. I thought there may have been a Russian case, but the closest is the parents of Peter III of Russia, who were the parents-in-law of Catherine the Great, who was initially merely her husband's wife but succeeded him as monarch in her own right.  The upstart.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's a rare one: The father who's children inherit thrones of different countries. During the 13th century, the thrones of Navarre and France became united, but because of differing succession laws in the two lands and because of insane medieval politics, the children of Louis X of France, each of different mothers, became Joan II of Navarre (queen regnant of the Kingdom of Navarre) and John I of France.  John I (John the Postumous) "ruled" from his birth till his death at the ripe old age of 5 days, but he is still counted as King of France.  -- Jayron  32  03:08, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * And another similar one, also involving the Kingdom of Navarre (which seems to have had a very convoluted history tied very closely to the neighboring kingdoms of France and Aragon). Depending on how rival claimants are counted, John II of Aragon, besides his son Ferdinand II of Aragon also had two daughters who either ruled or had claim to be rulers of Navarre, being Eleanor of Navarre and Blanche II of Navarre. -- Jayron  32  03:15, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yet another from Navarre: Gaston of Foix, Prince of Viana had a son and daughter who were both monarchs of Navarre, Francis Phoebus of Navarre and Catherine of Navarre. -- Jayron  32  03:17, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Roger II of Sicily fathered (by different mothers) William I of Sicily and Constance, Queen of Sicily. -- Jayron  32  03:27, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Some of non-European monarchs. Kekūanāoa and Kīnaʻu were the parents of King Kamehameha IV and King Kamehameha IV. And if you can count Victoria Kamāmalu who along with her mother was kuhina nui, sort of like a vice-monarch; plus she was acting monarch for a day in November 30, 1863.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:32, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe this is more suitable Kapaakea and Keohokālole were the parents of King Kalākaua and Queen Liliuokalani.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * King Pōmare II and Queen Teriʻtoʻoterai Teremoemoe were the parents of King Pōmare III and Queen Pōmare IV. And Queen Pōmare IV and Ariifaaite were the parents of Queen Teriimaevarua II of Bora Bora, King Tamatoa V of Raiatea, and King Pōmare V. King Tamatoa III of Raiatea and his wife Queen Tura'iari'i Ehevahine were the parents of King Tamatoa IV of Raiatea, Queen regnant Teri'itari'a II of Huahine (also Queen consort of Tahiti as one of the wives of Pōmare II) and Queen consort Teriʻtoʻoterai Teremoemoe of Tahiti (mentioned above). Ta'aroa Ari'i and Tematafainuu were the parents of Queen Maihara of Huahine and King Ari'imate of Huahine. King Ari'imate and Queen regnant (succeed after her husband's desposition) Tehaapapa II were the parents of Queen Teuhe II of Huahine and King Tamatoa VI of Raiatea.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:56, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, I'd heard of the Hawaiian and Tongan monarchies, but I didn't know there were other Pacific monarchies. The things you find out here.  Tks, KAVBEAR.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

(undent) Sigismund I the Old, king of Poland, and his second wife Bona Sforza were the parents of Sigismund II Augustus and Anna Jagiellon, both of whom ruled as monarchs of Poland (Anna in a "William & Mary"-like arrangment with her husband Stephen Bathory). -- Jayron  32  04:04, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Orange Suede Sofa above mentioned Amalric I of Jerusalem and Agnes of Courtenay and Sibylla and Baldwin IV, but Amalric also had another daughter, Isabella I of Jerusalem with his second wife Maria Comnena. Sibylla might have had this distinction too - her son was Baldwin V of Jerusalem, and she had daughters, but they all died before they could inherit the throne. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Another one is John II of Cyprus, sort of - his daughter Charlotte succeeded him, but the throne was contested by his illegitimate son James II, who was also crowned. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:50, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * May I introduce you to Emma of Normandy, who, not content with being Queen consort herself with two different monarchs, and Queen consort of three separate realms, was mother to 2 kings of England; stepmother to 2 other kings of England; and mother to Gunhilda, Queen of the Romans. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Pleased to meet you, Emma. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)


 * How could I have forgotten Cleopatra and her brothers Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV, all of whom occupied the throne of Egypt? I'm sorry if I'm weirding you out but she was also married to each of them in turn. --Antiquary (talk) 18:57, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I've been hanging around here too long, and I am now officially unweirdable. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Even more wierd; Ptolemy XIII was only 11 when he married Cleopatra who was 18 - if I've done my sums right. Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I should have mentioned that Cleopatra's sisters (or half-sisters) Arsinoe IV and Berenice IV each reigned as queen of Egypt at different times. There are other examples from the Ptolemaic dynasty, including Ptolemy V Epiphanes, whose daughter Cleopatra II ruled Egypt after the reigns of her brothers Ptolemy VI Philometor and Ptolemy VIII Physcon, each of whom she married.  Then there's Ptolemy I Soter and his four children Ptolemy Keraunos, king of Macedon, Meleager, also king of Macedon, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, king of Egypt, and Arsinoe II, queen regnant of Egypt, who married her brother Ptolemy and had children by him.  Next up: Hecatomnus, king of Caria, was father of Mausolus, king of Caria, who of course married his sister (I find I'm weirding less and less) Artemisia II, later queen regnant of Caria.  The Byzantine Emperor Arcadius and his wife Aelia Eudoxia were parents of Theodosius II and Pulcheria; Theodosius succeeded to the throne while still a child, but Pulcheria eventually became his regent and also proclaimed herself Empress.  Finally, for the moment, Alfonso VIII of Castile and his wife Eleanor of England were succeeded by their son Henry I of Castile, but when he died without children his sister Berengaria became for a few weeks queen of Castile. --Antiquary (talk) 22:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

THank you one and all for those surprising answers. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)