Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 September 8

= September 8 =

French presidents Quebec independence
Which French president actually recognized Quebec fight for independence because so far I know that Francois Mitterand didn't when Rene Levesque, Premier of Quebec came to France in 1979? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.21.204 (talk) 01:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Charles de Gaulle said Vive le Québec libre when visiting Montreal for Expo 67. Mingmingla (talk) 01:37, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

tracking consumer price index and determining cost of living adjustment
I know that retailers can be required by Federal law to submit price changes for products they sell. I know some product prices increase often by small increments while other prices may go for longer intervals of time. I know that some products experience size decrease to keep prices the same.

What I need to know is whether the Consumer Price Index for food accounts for these changes in size versus price and whether dividing product price by calories for each macro-nutrient group would be more accurate than dividing product price by product volume or weight to calculate a reliable Consumer Price Index? --DeeperQA (talk) 04:52, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Given the tenuous relationship of CPI consumption bundles with actual lived experience over time (Consider the A, B, C, Revised C, and CPI series in Australia, all of which were politically manipulated), the idea of interrogating a price series to that depth is unlikely to achieve results. Price series usually have much more fundamental, high order, problems with their constructions.  (I do, by the way, love statisticians—the Australian instance, where series were junked by governments because, despite not reflecting increased social needs, they still demonstrated declining returns to labour—this is indicative of the fidelity of statisticians to their task). Fifelfoo (talk) 05:08, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * In the United States, the CPI does account for changes in unit volume, but not for changes in nutritional content for a given unit volume. Moreover, the controversial use of hedonic regression involves the assumption that when two items within a category of items have different price movements, consumers will buy more of the item that has had the lower price increase. So, for example, if nutritious breakfast cereal rises more quickly in price than breakfast cereal with lower nutritional value, then the Bureau of Labor Statistics will in effect discount the effect of the price increase for the more nutritious item by assuming increased demand for the less nutritious item.  Marco polo (talk) 13:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

If the ratio of price and nutrition is used as the value index then changes to either price or nutrition will show up as change in value. Assuming we know how many calories a person needs per day and how many of those calories must come from each macro-nutrient group then by using a ratio of price to nutrition we can quite easily determine how many dollars a person needs in order to have a balanced and complete diet per day. Yes or no? --DeeperQA (talk) 18:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No people are not feeder cattle and demand a choice and variation in their food (at least in the US). Giving everyone a sack of potatoes, a vitamin pill and a soy shake and basing the value index on only those items is going to give you an inaccurate picture of what is actually happening to food prices as a whole.  Googlemeister (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Cost per basic unit of volume or weight is already printed on shelf labels in most major grocery stores so a consumer can decide which item to purchase based on cost, but unfortunately not on nutrition.
 * With a label showing cost per unit of nutrition a consumer could know which products have the lower cost without the empty calories.
 * Currently the food stamp program does prevent the purchase at the point of sale of some items like fancy canned vegetables that retail for 150% of the price of regular canned vegetables.
 * The food stamp program does not require the recipient to purchase a complete and balanced diet and on top of that provides an allowance generous enough for recipients to have personal preferences, even if doing so results in a diet that is full of empty calories and not completely nutritious.
 * However, for people with income below or near the poverty line essential nutrition can be denied in the absence of a nutrition value index that would otherwise guarantee no less than a sack of potatoes, soy shake and vitamin pill. --DeeperQA (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Writing a book-advice for teenagers
I am writing a book, or rather editing one I have already done rather badly, and as part of the story, one of the characters, a teenager, goes to a friend of hers for advice. You see, she is having trouble at school, unable to concentrate on anything for more than a few minutes, unable to motivate herself into getting work done, that sort of thing, and her friend has been through similar before, and proposes to help if she can. the result is a stack of printed pages, some of typed notes, others copied from the internet or wherever. Trouble is, I have little idea what advice she should be given. what I have so far is: take up a sport or other hobby, get some exercise every day, have breakfast every morning, some vague reference to mental exercises and relaxation, and perhaps something about timetables.

So, I am wondering if anyone here can offer more suggestions, or fill in some details of those I already have.

85.210.117.130 (talk) 17:28, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Remember Everybody's Free (To Wear Sunscreen) ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 23:04, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Many children can just be bored with school. I liked the movie Kes (film) quiet a bit. The child in that movie wasn't too interesting in school, but he really did take an interest in a bird he found, and he really put in work to learn how to take care for it. You could set up any number of situations where a child stumbles upon something they really like. They could be forced to work at a bakery, which they initially dislike, but soon find they love it and start experimenting and learning more baking tricks outside of work, and go on to become a great baker. Same could be done for a child who comes around Trapeze, the child loves trapezing, and trains hard and become a wonder. The underlying message of course for these two stories is find something you are interested in and you will natuarally be motivated to try hard. You can add a hurdle or setback they must overcome to fortify the idea that if you try hard you can do anything and just for better story telling. Underlying messages work just as well as the more direct and obvious way you are going about it. Public awareness (talk) 03:11, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Get checked for ADD and ADHD. StuRat (talk) 03:26, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Put yourself in her shoes. i.e. go find enough advice to [theoretically] fill a stack of papers. Try googling for forums geared for teenagers or support groups, etc. If I'm guessing correctly, you don't need an actual stack of advice (that would make a very long very boring story), all you need are examples of advice. Pick the best ones, and pretend that these were the ones the girl chose from everything her friend gave her. Or pick a few and pretend like she is reading from the top of the list then trail it off.

If you're not planning to follow up on her activities afterwards, you don't even have to specify them. Just say that her friend gave her a ton of advice from various sources, and that's that. And shouldn't you have thought of this already when making the plot outline? If it's central to the story, you really should have.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   04:34, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That doesn't seem very constructive, Obsidian Soul. The OP has already admitted that their initial draft is "written . . . badly", and even experienced professional authors not infrequently hit problems with plot and background details, and also not infrequently find a story developing in ways and directions, that they have not previously anticipated. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.202 (talk) 09:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * No no, that wasn't a criticism of the OP's writing abilities at all. If it sounded like that, I apologize. It's simply that, if the advice is important to the storyline, very different considerations apply, including your own ability to make it believable.


 * For example, if the advice given is incidental (i.e. the advice does not affect the progression of the story), then the details of the advice given is irrelevant. You can say that her friend advised her to collect stamps. She tries to collect stamps, but the story progresses and it merely becomes a background detail (even perhaps, a humorous recurring motif), and she actually succeeds in motivating herself her own way.


 * If, however, the advice given is not mere background detail but pivotal to the plot (i.e. the girl suddenly becomes motivated because of the advice), then it must be thought out carefully. If the advice was to collect stamps, then the entire story would now hinge on stamp-collecting. It's exceedingly more difficult to make that believable or satisfying for the readers if you hadn't thought of how to pull it off in the first place. In those cases, I suggest you take from your own personal experiences of overcoming something like it. Something you're intimately familiar with (a hobby or writing itself), to make it less like an artificial spur-of-the-moment stopgap that it is.


 * Also, it seems I misread the OP, LOL. 'The result is a stack of printed pages' refers to the OP's own research rather than the character's. I was wondering why on earth would the friend give a stack of printed pages as advice when she's been through it already, heh. Hence the previous advice on implying depth or quantity without actually showing depth or quantity.


 * Anyway, my suggestion still applies. Pick something you are familiar with, something that helped you in a similar situation.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   10:48, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, and just because I'm not too far out of my teens yet and know how teen brains work: if this is supposed to be a humorous story with a romantic twist and set in senior high school, why not let her friend imply that her crush (who happens to be the school jock and brains) is going to a certain school after graduating that requires good grades. Have the protagonist slave away to get good grades in the hope of attracting said crush's attention or ending up at the same school. She discovers soon enough that her crush is a jealous conceited twit who views her efforts at first with benign condescension then later on with undisguised hostility as attempts to replace him as the bestest person in the school. By then, she has already discovered that she loves chemistry/biology/physics/mathematics/etc., so she's hurt but not too badly hurt. She thanks her friend for indirectly motivating her to discover her life's passion (who then admits that she knew what would happen anyway in a Yoda-like way). She and her crush don't end up together, but the girl graduates with honors, grows up emotionally, and goes on to be a famous chemist/biologist/physicist/mathematician/etc. How's that? :P--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   11:18, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Muslim prayer in space
How can Muslims in space pray toward Mecca? Also, how can they pray five times a day when a day is so short? --207.160.233.153 (talk) 20:04, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You assume that nobody thought about it and already held a large conference and came up with a solution as described here? -- k a i n a w &trade; 20:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * See also Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor and the sources cited there. Deor (talk) 20:08, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Also dealt with in science fiction. Sarah Zettel's Fool's War, for example.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   20:27, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The key quote probably being "God does not take a person to task for that which is beyond his/her ability to work with." --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:52, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The questioner assumed nothing; they asked a question. Please don't bite. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:28, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Also see Qibla toward the bottom of the article. One ayatollah said all the astronaut has to do is to face Earth.  Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Muslim flags with Arabic characters
Why do the flags/banners of Muslim organizations or governments usually consist of a single background color with a superimposed Arabic text? --Belchman (talk) 20:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Islamic law bans many things, such as depicting live creatures on a flag. Plants are allowed, but many are uneasy to include a "live" plant. So, they often use a phrase of some sort. -- k a i n a w &trade; 20:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The article Aniconism in Islam is relevent to read. -- Jayron  32  21:58, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The only flag I can think of that fits your desciption is the flag of Saudi Arabia (unless someone else knows better). The text is the Shahada - the Islamic declaration of faith: "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God." Interestingly, this makes the Saudi flag unique, as every other flag has a reverse side that is a mirror-image of the front. However, because having such a sacred text shown backwards would be inappropriate, each Saudi flag is actually two flags sewn back-to-back, so that it can be read normally from either side. A number of Arab countries have tricolour flags of black, white and red; these are the colours of the Pan-Arab movement; "Red symbolizes the struggle and sacrifice for freedom; white signifies peace; and black stands for the dark colonial past." Green is the traditional colour which represents Islam. Egypt and Syria both have heraldic eagles as emblems, so the law about depicting creatures doesn't seem to be universally observed; perhaps someone with a better understanding of the subject would like to comment. Alansplodge (talk) 22:28, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Interestingly, this makes the Saudi flag unique, as every other flag has a reverse side that is a mirror-image of the front': I can't work out what you mean, Alan. All flags have a reverse side that is exactly the same as the mirror-image of the front; that's just a basic physical property of thin fabric.  Relatively few flags are mirror images of themselves, i.e. where the front and back are totally interchangeable.  The ones with horizontal symmetry have this property (Libya, Hungary, Bulgaria, Israel, Canada, Armenia, Austria ....). Most flags, including Saudi Arabia, are not reversible.  There's nothing unique about Saudi Arabia's flag in this respect.   --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe what Alan is referring to is the fact that the Saudi flag *doesn't* "have a reverse side that is the same as the mirror-image of the front". That is, if you had a US flag hung in a north-facing window, while for people outside the window the stars would be in the upper left corner (east side of the flag), it would be in the upper right corner for people on the inside of the window (still east side). In contrast, if a Saudi flag was hung in the window, those on the outside would be able to read the text from right to left (west to east), while those on the inside would *also* be able to read it right to left (which would be east to west for them). As you indicate, you can't get this property with a simple thin fabric, which requires the "sewing two flags back-to-back" that Alan mentioned. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 00:22, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * (Edit Conflict)"All flags have a reverse side that is exactly the same as the mirror-image of the front; that's just a basic physical property of thin fabric." Agreed; EXCEPT the Saudi flag where the script has to be able to be read (from right to left) whether you look from the back or the front. 'The inscription, in accordance with the Arab custom, reads from the observer's right towards the left. In order that it shall appear correctly on the reverse side of the flag, it is necessary for the manufacturer to print it in duplicate and sew the two back to back before fixing the canvas "heading"'.. Alansplodge (talk) 00:29, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * But I was wrong about its uniqueness; the new Iraqi flag has "God is Great" written on it and is doubled-up in the same way as the Saudi flag. Paraguay has different circular emblems on the obverse and reverse and some US states are similar. Note to self; don't believe everything that you read in the Observer's Book of Flags! Alansplodge (talk) 00:48, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You were more wrong than you thought. The Flag of Brazil has the exact same front/back properties as the flag of Saudia Arabia for the same reasons: the celestial sphere and the writing would be wrong if the standard convention of the opposite sides being mirror images were adhered to.  So Brazil's flag works exactly like Saudia Arabia's flag.  -- Jayron  32  03:00, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Quite right Jayron; "it being forbidden to make one side as a mirror-image of the other." (Law No 5700 of 1 September 1971). Let it be inscribed on my headstone: "More Wrong Than He Thought". Alansplodge (talk) 11:12, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

[unindent] Back to the original question — most national/organisational flags don't picture living animals of any species. Look at Flags of Africa: of the eighty-three flags pictured, only nine (by my count) have living creatures, and many of those are Bantustans or colonies of European countries; only Egypt (a Muslim state!) and Zambia are fully independent states with living animals on their flags. Humans are even rarer on flags; right now, the only one that I can think of is the Flag of Washington, a US state. Do you mean "why don't Muslim countries or organisations have flags like European tricolours"? Nyttend (talk) 03:43, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Except, many Muslim countries do have tricolors, or varients thereof. Consider Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Iran, Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Sudan all of which have varients on the horizontal tricolor, but with Pan-arabic colors.  Afganistan has a vertical tricolor.  Indonesia's flag is basically Poland's flag in reverse.  Lots of Muslim countries have flags which resemble European flags, but with different color schemes.  -- Jayron  32  03:58, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * And Libya has reverted to a tricolour too. Alansplodge (talk) 11:19, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Why do countries use tricolour flags? People in the U.S. enjoy having a recognizable flag - same true doubtless of Australia, Canada, the U.K. etc.  Those tricolor flags seem like you'd often have to look them up in Wikipedia to figure out whose is whose. Wnt (talk) 06:13, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Mostly direct and indirect Dutch (horizontal) and French revolutionary (vertical) influences. AnonMoos (talk) 11:51, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * 'Plain' flags are usually civil flags, historically used by the general populace and flown in buildings not occupied by the country's armed forces. They are supposed to be the 'base template' or whatever on which crests or other more distinctive marks can be superimposed, so they're quite plain. However, many of the other countries with those plain civil flags, do have flags with crests and all that on their war flags and state flags. --  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   11:55, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually quite a number of people seem to think the New Zealand flag is the Australian flag. Even the Australian Monarchist League seemed to think that once . Some people (probably less since NZ is less known in the world and the NZ flag is also less likely to be used) think the Australian flag is the New Zealand flag. Nil Einne (talk) 17:48, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a good reason for either or both of us to change our flags. Plus the fact that 25% of both flags is the flag of a foreigh country.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:22, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey, we're not a foreign country! It's all you lot that are foreigners! --Dweller (talk) 21:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I should have said foreign power. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  05:13, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Horseshoe ring
Has anybody used horseshoe ring for a long period of time and benefited from it? Does it really have any positive effect on one's life? Thanks--180.234.17.97 (talk) 21:13, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm sure many used it, and started appreciated positive effects after a while. However, that does not imply causation. Quest09 (talk) 21:39, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * As with horeshoes over doorways, it depends on which way you wear it. If you don't benefit, you must be wearing it the wrong way. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:07, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Reddingsboei rvanhasselt.jpg style of lifering is horseshoe shaped and is sometimes called a horseshoe ring (though not being ring-shaped, it is more properly called a horseshoe shaped lifebuoy). They have certainly had positive effects on both buoyancy and life expectancy of many users. -- 110.49.241.147 (talk) 01:26, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Now google [horseshoe ring] and you'll find lots of examples of what I was talking about. One of them shows Elvis wearing one, and he did pretty well for himself, up to a point (specifically, a point in 1977). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:31, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Er... no. It's superstition.--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   02:14, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't be too sure about that. Bugsy has 4 rabbits' feet, and he's done OK so far. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:19, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's probably because they're still attached to the owner? --   Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   10:59, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hang on guys. Just because it's all superstition doesn't mean it can't improve your life. Feeling positive things can be a huge advantage. If you feel like you're defending the horseshoe ring the whole time, you're likely to seek confirmation bias: in other words, you'll come up with all the good stuff that happens to you. You'll dismiss bad things as trivial. As such, it'll improve your outlook. Could have a significant benefit - I'm sure the reverse could happen in a small number of people, but I certainly think overall it might help people see the world differently. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Still, should we really be peddling superstitions on the Wikipedia Reference Desk? *facepalm* My witch doctor tells me this is bad juju!--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   10:51, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * How rosy thoughts can lead to negative outcomes Bus stop (talk) 11:09, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't forget that it works even if you don't believe in it. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 22:50, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Proverbial cartoons
I'm aware of the Curate's egg and On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, which gives a broad period of time in which cartoons like this are popular and socially relevant enough, and communication/propagation is efficient enough, that a cartoon can become sufficiently well-recognised that a reference to it is pretty much proverbial, sort of a modern variant on Aesop's fables. Do you know of any other examples of cartoons like this that became proverbs or idioms? 86.163.0.200 (talk) 23:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Dropping the Pilot, perhaps? Supermac (cartoon), maybe, albeit that's a series. The very short Category:Editorial cartoons and its parents might yield some more. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The office Nazi from Dilbert (no reference on wikipedia though). Sleigh (talk) 01:03, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops, the Cubicle Gestapo with one reference on wikipedia that adds no more information List of fictional secret police and intelligence organizations. Sleigh (talk) 02:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Low's 1940 cartoon, "VERY WELL, ALONE!" caught the spirit of Britain's worst and finest episode and is widely reproduced around the web today. Now sometimes used as a rallying call by British Euro-sceptics and even US isolationists. Oddly, our WP article on the man doesn't mention it. Alansplodge (talk) 01:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I found this: The History of the Cartoon. It mentions many cartoons that have entered the western conciousness. Anything improvised and rickety is Heath Robinson for instance. Alansplodge (talk) 02:17, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The (approximate) U.S. analogue being, of course, a Rube Goldberg device. Deor (talk) 11:19, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * tvtropes covers tropes from all media except newspaper comics and single frame comics. It has comic books and webcomics which includes newspaper comics that moved to webcomics. Sleigh (talk) 02:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the one that comes immediately to my to mind is the Bairnsfather cartoon of "If you know a better 'ole, go to it!" from World War 1. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:12, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, that brings back old memories. I can't imagine why I created that article back in 2006, since I'd never heard of him before then, and I've never visited the article since then.  Weird.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  09:43, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * But Bairnsfather is well known in the UK. Generations of British policemen have been unkindly compared to Old Bill, the grumpy veteren of "better 'ole" fame. I also recall reading that in the 1920s, the German army published a textbook detailing the lessons learned from the Great War. The chapter on morale concluded that the British sense of humour had been important in allowing troops to endure appalling conditions. This was illustrated by a Bairnsfather cartoon of Old Bill and a recruit sitting in a ruined house near the front. The recruit is looking at the large holes in the walls and says "What made them 'oles Bill?" Reply; "Mice!" The German writers felt it necessary to add "It wasn't mice, it was shells." Alansplodge (talk) 09:57, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Another one of possible comic strip origin is Keeping up with the Joneses. ---Sluzzelin talk  09:59, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Lord Kitchener Wants You? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:18, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * "I've never kippled" is pretty well known (see the penultimate paragraph here)—though one might quibble whether it qualifies as a "cartoon"—as is the one mentioned in the sixth paragraph here. Deor (talk) 11:19, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Some of the xkcd strips get a lot of recognition in geeky circles. -- LarryMac  | Talk  12:48, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Wikiquote have a Category:Cartoonists which will lead you to a lot more of the best-remembered cartoons. --Antiquary (talk) 18:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Pretty much all of Bill Mauldin's "Willie and Joe" cartoons are iconic for the US World War II generation. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 18:11, 9 September 2011 (UTC)