Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 April 6

= April 6 =

Passover Greeting
For Easter, the general greeting in English is "Happy Easter". Observant Christians may use "He is risen" or "Christ is risen". What is commonly used for Passover? I'd like both the English and the Hebrew (with pronunciation help). Thanks Bielle (talk) 05:10, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Any Christian of an orthodox church (Roman Catholic, Orthodox Catholic, Lutheran, and presumably Episcopal/Anglican (sorry to leave out any cobelievers) should say in response to "Christ is risen!" the response "He is risen indeed!" perhaps with a joyous "Allelujah!" on Easter. See Paschal greeting. It is a better day of the year than Christmas for such believers. It is 24 hours away. In Spanish, it seems he has resuscitated himself, presumably without a defibrillator or CPR. It was claimed in the 1980's that one could give oneself CPR by repeated thrusts of the fist against the chest or by coughing hard in the event of heart failure, but doubters were numerous. Edison (talk) 04:16, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * What about if someone says? Hu'ta' QISt! Nil Einne (talk) 19:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure about a specific greeting for Passover/Pesach, but you might try "חג שמח" (chag sameach), which is a generic greeting for Jewish holidays. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that "Pesach sameach chag" (or some variation thereof) might be an acceptable greeting for Passover, but I'm not about to commit to that. Hopefully others can chime in with better answers than mine. : ) Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 05:29, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * According to Bible narrative, which day in Passover did the crucifixtion take place on, and what are the significance of the following two dates in Passover? Plasmic Physics (talk) 06:15, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * See Crucifixion of Jesus and Chronology of Jesus, which discuss the time of his death, and Passover, for background info. --Colapeninsula (talk) 08:26, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I see that Passover is a seven or eight day long festival starting on the first day of the week (Sunday). I feel that I should mention that understanding classical Jewish feasts and Sabbaths, is important to an SDA's understanding of the Second Covenant (New Testament). Plasmic Physics (talk) 11:22, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Chag sameach is certainly the most common greeting, but probably you would not use it during the intermediate days unless you hadn't yet seen someone since Passover started. You'd go back (in my experience as a formerly ritually active Jew) to conventional greetings.  It just means "joyous festival".--Wehwalt (talk) 11:30, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The Last Supper was the Seder, and that occurs on the first two nights of Pesach, so it's not possible to know exactly which day of the Passover week the crucifixion occurred. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:41, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * How do you reckon? It is written that the crucifixtion occured on a Preparation Day, and that the following day was a Sabbath, and that was followed by the first day of the next week. Plasmic Physics (talk) 14:02, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, the Seder occured the evening prior to the Preparation Day. Plasmic Physics (talk) 14:26, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * One correction: Passover begins on the same date in the Hebrew calendar (15 Nisan) each year and can start on any day of the week, not just Sunday. This year it begins on a Friday night. D Monack (talk) 23:21, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The article Jewish greetings offers several options: Chag Sameach (חַג שָׂמֵחַ, KHAHG sah-MEHY-ahkh) meaning "happy holiday" is a good default for any Jewish holiday. It notes a special Passover form: "'Chag Kasher V'Same'ach' (חַג כָשֵׁר וְשָׂמֵחַ) meaning wishing a happy and kosher holiday." In Ashkenazi households, the Yiddish phrase "Good Yontif" is common and is easier to pronounce if you have trouble with that voiceless velar fricative. D Monack (talk) 23:29, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Completion of a spiritual / song sought
Is anyone able to, please fill in the huge gaps in this spiritual? I was too young to sing in the village choir in the early 1950s, but the song’s pathos and serenity did make a lasting impression on me even at that age in an African village. Thus now at the age of 68 and reminiscing the flash-backs in the current violent world, I keep feeling the need to sing it. But all I can do is hum the tune. All I can remember are disjointed pieces at the beginning and end [of which I cannot be entirely certain and cannot even remember how many verses there were] thus:

God of the endless Universe; By Whose Love and great compassion; Sun, Moon and Planets Do rehearse .?the rythmic tale all.................................. ?............................................Nature tells; with soft compassion of thy love; with sweet persuasion of thy grace;

Then follows sections sung in the form of ‘canon’ between the different voices before ending in

Stretch forth Thy mighty wings above The struggling Negro Race

[I think]

I appreciate that this equates to the proverbial ‘a needle in a haystack’ situation, but if any site can Wikipedia can, I say.

I learnt this song back in primary school. I was trying to find it hoping to find other verses if any, when I came across your post. If you've found it please let me know. Thanks very much — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.68.111 (talk) 11:47, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I learnt this song back in primary school. I was trying to find it hoping to find other verses if any, when I came across your post. If you've found it please let me know. You've got most of it: God of the endless universe/Whose love with equal power compels/Sun, moon and planets to rehearse/The rhythmic tales that nature tells/With soft compulsion of thy love/With sweet persuasion of thy grace/Stretch forth thy mighty wings above/The struggling Negro race.

I learnt this in secondary school in Ghana, and it was pretty much the school anthem. At 74, it still evokes emotions in me and I sing it often. This is what I learnt:

God of the endless Universe Whose love with equal power compels Sun, moon and planet to rehearse the rhythmic tale All nature tells

With soft compulsion of thy love With sweet persuasion of thy grace Stretch forth thy mighty wings above The struggling Negro race

Almost exactly the same as the post above, except to the best of my recollection, we learnt it as “..tales all nature” rather than “...tales that nature..”

Music video with duck hand puppets
No luck at the entertainment desk so I wonder if you guys know: Last year there was a music video, and the video had this duck walking around having little adventures and telling stories during the song. Can anyone remember the name? Also, the duck was made out of someone's hand. Thanks. Llamabr (talk) 15:37, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really hand puppets, but your post reminded me of this. Evanh2008 (talk) (contribs) 19:32, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Tung Tusham Island
I have made a start on improving our article on the Lisbon Maru. According to Wrecksite, she was sunk "six miles off Tung Tusham Island on the China coast". The only Google results I can find for "Tung Tusham" link directly to pages about the sinking of the Lisbon Maru. I was wondering if this is an obsolete rendering of the name, and if so, what is it called now? Alansplodge (talk) 16:44, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * This site, linked from the Lisbon Maru article, gives a little map and coordinates, the last of which seems to be 30.20086°N, 122.70329°W. Looking that place up in Google Earth I don't see a name for the islands, but the easternmost one has this Panoramio photo which says the islands is called Qingbang. That's far from a reliable source (as Panoramio photos are often mislocated or mislabelled), but it's a start. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 17:04, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * ...and Google Maps calls that island Qingbangdao. All of this assumes that the website is accurate, however. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 17:11, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * ... but that clashes with the written coordinates that map gives. If we ignore the map and use the coordinates, you end up south of that island triplet and west of and island called Dongfushan (which does sound like Tung Tusham). The map doesn't match the coordinates, and the coordinates given aren't very accurate, so with this alone you can't be very sure of where they mean. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 17:18, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It may be this island: 东极岛. A link:  and in Google translate: .  The article mentions the Lisbon Maru in connection with the island.  Perhaps a Chinese speaker can help out? --Amble (talk) 17:24, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * According to this Japanese page (character encoding is Shift_JIS), translation is here (see #211 and 浬 is nautical mile), the name of the island is 東福山/东福山. Oda Mari (talk) 18:53, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that Oda; does the Japanese name you gave transliterate to Higashifukuyama Island mentioned in the translated article? Does "yama" mean "mountain"? (BTW, "the falling of a thunderbolt" is a very lyrical way of saying "torpedoed"!) Alansplodge (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks too Finlay and Amble: we have an article on the island group Zhoushan which says, "On October 1, 1942, the Japanese Lisbon Maru (里斯本丸) transported 1,800 POW back to Tokyo, but Lisbon Maru sank after being hit by a torpedo near Qingbing Island (青浜). 384 of the British POW overboard were rescued by the fishermen of Dongji Township (东极乡) nearby." Mystery solved, except to confirm that Qingbing and Tung Tusham are one and the same place. Alansplodge (talk) 23:45, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's Higashifukuyama Island. Hope these would be helpful. This page says it's 20 miles north of Chushan Island, 29°57'N, 122°56'N. And this is the official report of Grouper. Lisbon Maru is mentioned on page 40 to 48. There might be more, but the report is too long. The official Japanese report of the sinking to Tojo can be seen at here. Put C01000849600 into the window and click 検索, then click 閲覧 and see page 4. It says "352 degree, five or six nm from 東福山島. And this is the official page explanation of 东极岛 and the Translation. Both 東福山/东福山(島/island) and 青浜 are nearby islands. You can see the islands, mainly東福山, at here (translation) . See also and . It seems G-translate does not know pinyin. This the translation of one of two ref. used at zh:WP. .   As for the islands name, why don't you ask at WT:CHINA or WP:RD/L? Oda Mari (talk) 09:35, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone. It was more complicated than I thought. I pestered User:Double sharp until I got this answer: "Actually, "Green Bang Island" is Qingbangdao and "East Fukuyama" (which is actually 东福山) is Tung Tusham. The page also says that Qingbangdao and Tung Tusham are both main sceneries of "East Pole Island" (东极岛), so they might in fact be different parts of the same island. It's certain that Qingbangdao and Tung Tusham are different places." This page Undiscovered Zhoushan: Dongji Islands, says that there's a memorial to the Lisbon Maru survivors on Qingbin Dao (aka Green Bang Island). I'm still not entirely clear, but I have enough to be getting on with. Thanks again to everyone involved. Alansplodge (talk) 17:29, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, "Green Bang Island" isn't an alternative name for "Qingbangdao"; it's simply a mistranslation. Double sharp (talk) 08:07, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

To reword the above, filling any missing details on the two islands:
 * The Japanese article ( http://homepage3.nifty.com/jpnships/company/nyk_taishoki1.htm ) describes the location as "東福山島の北約6浬", i.e. 6 nautical miles north of the island called 東福山. This name is writted in simplified Chinese characters used in PRC today, 东福山; in Standard Mandarin's modern pinyin transcription, it is Dongfushan (or Dong Fushan), and in the older Wade-Giles transcription, Tung-fu-shan; it means "Eastern Lucky Mountain". (Not surprisingly, there is also Xifushan, i.e. "Western Lucky Mountain" Island nearby). Dongfushan is here: 30.13333°N, 122.76667°W. Japanese usually write Chinese place names with the same Kanji/Hanji as used in China (modulo simplification), but read them according to (one of) the Japanese pronunciation(s) of those characters. And yes, Google Translate, when given 東福山(島) would translated it as Higashifukuyama (Island), and would transcribe 東福山 as Higashifukuyama, so I am pretty sure that this is indeed is a possible Japanese pronunciation for these characters. (Of course 福=fuku and 山=yama in plenty of genuine Japanese place names as well, and "higashi" is probably one of the possible Japanese ways to read 東; the other reading is Tō. "East Fukyuama" could also result from an automatic translation of 東福山, interpreted as 東 + 福山).
 * zh:里斯本丸 describes the location as being northeast of the Qingbang Island (青浜岛, Qingbangdao; automatic translation could indeed render is as "Green Bang Island") of Dongji Township (东极乡, Dongjixiang; these days it's actually Dongji Town, as may new map says). Here's this Qingbang Island: 30.2°N, 122.71667°W. As you can see on a map, "6 miles north of Dongfushan Island" is a location that can also be described as "NE of Qingbang Island". (According to my detailed maps, "Dongji" - 东极 - "East Pole", in automatic translation, or, rather the "Eastern Extremity (of the archipelago)" - is not actually used as the name of any island; it is used as the name of the "town", the administrative unit that includes the entire small island chain, with the main settlement - the actual town - being in Miaozihu Island, which is the western neighbor of Qingbang Island.) -- Vmenkov (talk) 06:07, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Vmenkov, that's really helpful. Alansplodge (talk) 12:38, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

John F. G. Stokes
Can someone tell something about John F. G. Stokes who was a historian on Hawaiian history? Like his lifespan and the initials in his name. Was he coauthor of  An Account of the Polynesian Race: Its Origins and Migrations, and the Ancient History of the Hawaiian People to the Times of Kamehameha I or just the editor?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This sounds familiar. Look in the archives and see if anyone was able to figure out the answer last time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:49, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope. Nothing in the archives under search for "John F. G. Stokes", "John Stokes, Hawaii" or anything similar although one section refers to Hawaiian hotspot about Adrian Stokes which is another person.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, sorry, I was mis-remembering. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * A Google Books search turns up some stuff. In his own words he was born in Australia, was 62 when he gave this testimony (in 1937, I think), moved to Hawaii in 1899 and became an American citizen in 1904. He was the Bishop Museum's curator of ethnology. Other books/websites say "polynesian ethnology". There's a bit more about this testimony in ; apparently he was trying to warn about the "Japanese conspircy" in Hawaii. This ancestry.com post claims he was born in 1875 and died in 1960. I'm sure there's better sources--I only have a few minutes. Pfly (talk) 21:29, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

richard stallman
did he ever attain an academic doctorate (phd) or only honoary ones? --134.255.105.197 (talk) 21:31, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * According to his bio here, he only has honorary doctorates. Only his Bachelor's degreee (BA) is academic. RudolfRed (talk) 21:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Cook Islands and Niue
I'm writing here as I'd expect to receive a swifter and more competent reply here, but please move this question to a respective article talk page if needed. Both the Cook Islands and Niue are listed as "Other states" in the list of sovereign states, but the "Other states" section of the sovereign-state flags gallery, which, per talk page notice, "includes the flags of the same states that are listed in the list of sovereign states", lists the Cook Islands only and no Niue. Should Niue be there or not? --Theurgist (talk) 23:31, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The gallery stipulates that "the states below have limited or no diplomatic recognition", which pretty much describes Niue. On the other hand, there are those who say that no Niue is good Niue. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:38, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't get the pun, even after reading it aloud; please explain it :-) Nyttend (talk) 04:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's a pun on "no news is good news".Anonymous.translator (talk) 04:57, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That makes a lot more sense than attempting to figure out why no new-way would be good new-way :-) Nyttend (talk) 05:47, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Fine, but then, out of the dozens of dependent territories, why are just Niue and the Cook Islands in the list of "other" sovereign states? The "Membership within the UN system" columns for these two entries indicate "Member of some UN specialized agencies" - is this what makes the difference, and does it not apply for any other dependent territory? --Theurgist (talk) 10:23, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The Cook Islands and Niue are not dependent territories, they are states in free association with New Zealand (just like Palau, FS Micronesia and the Marshall Islands are in free association with the US, as Naruto pointed out below). 109.97.158.210 (talk) 12:32, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I have a quick but off-topic question regarding the two places: Are they considered independent countries? According to their Wiki pages, they are "states in free association with New Zealand". However, IIRC, Palau, the Federated States of Micronesia and the Marshall Islands are also "states in free association", but with the US, and yet they are also considered to be independent nations. I'm also confused that it says that the Cook Islands has diplomatic relationships with some countries under its own name, so are they independent, are they part of New Zealand, or neither? When I look at my maps, it says "Cook Islands (N.Z.)" and "Niue (N.Z.)" but I'm still confused. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't studied this in as much detail as I'd like to have, but the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (Saipan) is a state in "free association" with the United States in a status analogous to that of the Commonwealth (Estado Libre Asociado) of Puerto Rico. In the recent primaries, the Northern Marianas, Guam, American Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the United States Virgin Islands all elected delegations to the 2012 Republican National Convention in Tampa, Florida, and the 2012 Democratic National Convention in Charlotte, North Carolina, even though none of these cast votes for President or Vice President in the U.S. Electoral College. All of these places also send non-voting delegates or resident commissioners to the U.S. Congress in Washington. (Before gaining either independence or statehood, the Philippines, Alaska, and Hawaii also had voting delegates at party conventions and non-voting delegates or resident commissioners in Congress. Some conventions also seated delegations from the Panama Canal Zone before it was reabsorbed into the Republic of Panamá.) Palau, Micronesia and the Marshall Islands do not send delegations to Congress or national party conventions. I think much has to do with colonial history: many of the formerly-German Pacific islands passed under British, Australian, New Zealand or Japanese  mandates under the League of Nations after World War I, and after World War II many of the Japanese island possessions and mandates became United Nations Trust Territories under British, U.S., Australian or New Zealand administration. See, for example, Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands. See also (if you haven't already) Foreign relations of the Cook Islands, Foreign relations of Niue and Niue. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Palau, FSM and the Marshall Islands are UN member states, so that's probably why they count as independent even though they are in free association with the US, just like the Cook Islands and Niue are with NZL. On a UN-published map (http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/world00.pdf) the Cook Islands and Niue appear as "non-member states", so apparently the UN recognizes their statehood... No, apparently the map doesn't reflect their opinions bla bla, but still, they are non-member states instead of non-self governing territories. The only other entity recognized as a non-member state is the Holy See. 109.97.158.210 (talk) 12:29, 7 April 2012 (UTC)