Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 August 20

= August 20 =

Most male-dominated industries
What are the most male-dominated industries in the US (and preferably in the OECD as well) that do NOT　relate to construction, mining, or other physically intensive jobs? For some reason, it's hard to find this information. Thanks. --99.227.95.108 (talk) 04:21, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you count sports, which are typically segregated by gender ? StuRat (talk) 04:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * If you're going to make somewhat arbitrary divisions between fields of work, you're probably going to need to define "industry" for us. Would you include, for example, the arts or particular genres of music? Truck driving, certain sports, etc.? Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 04:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Front line warfare? HiLo48 (talk) 04:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * POTUS? All male so far, though there haven't been that many compared to other professions. 69.228.170.132 (talk) 04:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * How about the Roman Catholic priesthood? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What do they produce? Denial? *imagines some priest standing on a construction line, and with each *CRUNCH!* of the lever that he operates, the machine spits out another postcard with a large NO! stamped on it* --79.193.44.13 (talk) 06:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * On a larger scale, the IT industry is pretty male dominated. HiLo48 (talk) 04:57, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Wikipedians :) A8875 (talk) 05:51, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Gay porn? ;) -- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  06:28, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Women still work there as fluffers, writers, set staff, etc. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 07:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * True. Gay porn actors then? ;P -- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  07:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Seriously though, I found this article on AskMen. It lists from 10th to 1st the top-10 male-dominated industries. 10: accounting and finance, 9: comedy, 8: information technology, 7: professional cooking, 6: law enforcement, 5: emergency services, 4: sports media, 3: math, 2: politics, and 1: construction.-- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  06:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I would dispute that politics is an industry. Maths is also dubious. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 07:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've never seen a poor politician. ;) -- O BSIDIAN  †  S OUL  07:24, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is one. I am living abroad and only watch the Daily Show with John Stewart and the Colbert Report with Stephen Colbert. So, that is 100.00% male hosts. --80.99.254.208 (talk) 07:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd just like to challenge the assumption that mining is a physically intense industrial sector. Sure some jobs at mines might be like that, but for every hard laborer, there's someone like me sitting at a desk googling things. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 07:09, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That's hard work for at least 2 parts of your body. In some people they're in the same place.  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  11:09, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I obviously wasn't looking for things like gay porn actors, male hockey players, or front-line soldiers. Besides, in what sense is front-line fighting or hockey playing not intensely physical?  Also, since I haven't been able to find anything with any definition of the word "industry", Evanh2008's concern is irrelevant.  --99.227.95.108 (talk) 23:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you use terms that have no definition, that doesn't make our concerns irrelevant, it makes your question unanswerable. The fact that we don't know how you define "industry" is exactly why we didn't understand that you "obviously weren't looking for things like gay porn actors, male hockey players, or front-line soldiers". Any where did you look for a definition of "industry"? Did you try the wikipedia article? What about a dictionary? 203.27.72.5 (talk) 00:19, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * My point is, it doesn't matter which definition I use. Find me a list that uses ONE definition--any definition--and I'll be happy. --99.227.95.108 (talk) 04:29, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This might be helpful: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2011/11/art3full.pdf. Depending on what you think physical means, it looks like trucking or rail transportation could be candidates. Eiad77 (talk) 13:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well you have a list although I'm not sure what area it applies to. Perhaps more importantly, when people provided examples albeit not part of any formal list, you dismissed them as 'I obviously wasn't looking for'. This seems to suggest if someone did provide a list a third party had compiled which included these examples, you would say the list wasn't what you were looking for even though you now say you want a list with any definition and you'd be happy. Perhaps the biggest problem is if you are asking specifically for industries, you're requiring usage of the word and ignoring lists which don't use the word. Nil Einne (talk) 04:03, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * First of all, Obsidian mentioned "gay porn actors" as a joke, as indicated by his smilie. In my question, I asked for industries that don't involve physically intensive labor.  What counts as "physically intensive" can be debated, but male sports are front-line fighting aren't borderline; any reasonable person would consider them physically intensive.  --99.227.95.108 (talk) 16:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Dharmachakra guidelines?
Apart from being a round wheel with spokes and hub, it seems there are no defining guidelines for illustrating a dharmachakra... I have come across all manner of styles in my search. Is there a wrong way? A commonly accepted right way? Certain distinguishing features that must be present? The Christian cross seems almost standardized by comparison. The Masked Booby (talk) 08:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't have any in-depth knowledge in this area, but it seems that an eight-spoked "steering wheel" looking symbol is kind of the Latin Cross of Dharmachakras -- i.e. the simplest and least elaborate version of a symbol which can take on many variant shapes. Of course, particular artistic renderings of the symbol might be associated with particular groups or trends within Buddhism... By the way, I uploaded the image File:Sam Taeguk.jpg which is captioned "Gankyil" on the Dharmachakra article, and am not confident that it's a suitable illustration for Gankyil... AnonMoos (talk) 21:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Corruption in US !!!!!
Anecdotal evidence suggests that corruption in “daily life” in the US is very low – you can’t get away by bribing a policeman, there is no corruption involved in citizen services whether it be getting a birth certificate or a passport. But there is corruption at higher levels that comes to the fore from time to time. How has this situation come about? Is it due to social values? Anti-corruption laws and the legal system? A strong judiciary? I would like your opinions on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.113.11.143 (talk) 11:04, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This appears to be identical to a question posted on the Miscellaneous RD -- 71.35.112.120 (talk) 15:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This question also explicitly asks for opinions.203.27.72.5 (talk) 20:32, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Fictional characters of Swedish and Danish businessman
Looking for names of fictional characters of Swedish and Danish businessman in the agriculture and animal Husbandry field. Would appreciate any help183.83.244.183 (talk) 12:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)vsmurthy


 * I'm confused about your question. Are you asking for:
 * names of fictional farmers, who appear in existing literature
 * suggestions for names you personally might use for farmers in a fiction you yourself are now writing
 * -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * If you're asking for the second reason, you should be aware that Europeans' surnames no longer have any relation to a person's job and very little to their economic status. While many surnames might evoke an occupation (like Fletcher, Miller, Carpenter etc.) that's just historical artefact. So for surnames List of most common surnames in Europe and #Sweden are as good as any. For given names, see List of most popular given_names. You could just take one of the popular given names and one of the popular surnames and you've got a credible name (e.g. Frederik Jensen). Hmm, perhaps the given names thing is a bit misleading, as it's for names of children born in ~2010. If your fictional Danish farmer was born in say 1960, we might need to dig a bit to find popular Danish given names then, as given names follow a more volatile fashion. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I am looking for fictional characters in the existing literature183.83.244.183 (talk) 16:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)vsmurthy


 * In Faceless Killers a farmer is named Johannes Lovgren, his wife is Maria. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Pelle the Conqueror is set on a prosperous Danish farm owned by the Kongstrup family. The Ox is set on a Swedish agricultural estate owned by a character called Svenning Gustafsson. Alansplodge (talk) 17:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * A bit of Googling also confirms that Out of Africa is about a Swedish baron who buys a farm in Kenya and is called Bror von Blixen-Finecke. That rather exhausts my knowledge of agriculture depicted in Scandinavian cinema. Alansplodge (talk) 17:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Out of Africa is a memoir so Bror von Blixen-Finecke is real and not fictional. For real farmers there are plenty in da:Kategori:Landmænd fra Danmark, the Danish language version of the more sparse Category:Danish farmers. I find it mildly amusing that the single Danish farmer in the latter is not among the 195 in the former. The Danish translation of "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" is called "Jens Hansen har en bondegård", so Jens Hansen (a common Danish name) is a famous fictional farmer within Denmark. The Swedish version is called "Per Olsson hade en bonnagård". PrimeHunter (talk) 21:02, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Not quite agriculture, but closely related: In the Little House on the Prairie TV series, the character Lars Hanson owned and operated the saw mill. StuRat (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Depends on how far afield you want to go with agriculture, but there was a famous "reaper" in Swedish Filmmaker Ingmar Bergmann's 1957 film The Seventh Seal. -- Jayron  32  21:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Pippi Longstocking owns a horse, does that count? Adam Bishop (talk) 06:25, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Astrid Lindgren, the author of Pippi, wrote plenty of books where the main characters were farmers, set in Sweden at about the year 1900. Emil i Lönneberga's father Anton Svensson would be a prime example, as are the parents of The Six Bullerby Children, though I am not sure they are all named in the books other than by their first name and which house of the village they live in. From other authors, there are for example the characters of The Emigrants (novels) (there are several listed in each article, Karl Oskar Nilsson being the main one). Expect lots of -son names. However, none of my suggestions will match if you're looking with a narrow definition of 'businessman'. They are farmers, basically, not e.g. cattle traders. Many of the books by the Statare authors focus on indentured agricultural labourers, if you are interested in that./81.170.148.21 (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Can map data be copyrighted?
openstreetmap.org says that its "map data" is licensed under CC-by-sa. But I think that "map data" cannot be copyrighted, because there is no creativity made during its creation (at least it belongs to the person(s) who designed the road system represented in the data). Is that argument correct? What are your opinions? 171.228.101.11 (talk) 12:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think your underlying premise is incorrect - drafting a map requires a great deal of creativity in use of symbols, colours, fonts, placing of labels etc. In any case, the Ordnance Survey certainly believes its maps are protected by copyright. Its copyright page says "Ordnance Survey mapping is protected by virtue of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. Our mapping is protected for 50 years from the end of the year in which the map was published." Gandalf61 (talk) 12:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

It is not what I mean. My question is that whether the information used to create the map may be copyrighted, not specific representations of the map. Write English in Cyrillic (talk) 13:39, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, map data can be copyrighted. The government of Canada also claims copyright over its maps, . Personally, I'm not sure it should be, but that is another matter. Pfly (talk) 12:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC


 * US jurisdiction: The exact representation of a map can obviously be copyrighted: what colors are chosen, what symbols are chosen, what font the street names are in and exactly where it is placed, etc. The deeper question is whether I, a separate cartographer, can use your copyrighted map as the basis for drawing up a totally new and different map. There have been court cases about this very issue — see trap street for some discussion of it. My understanding is that it is legally murky ground. Copyright is meant to protect expressions of facts, not the underlying facts themselves. And yet, with maps (as with many other things), the idea/expression divide is awfully intertwined. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:15, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In the EU the database bit is covered by database rights. Other places are gradually coming round to that point of view rather than using copyright for the purpose but the US has had anything like that stopped by factional interests. In fact the whole business of patents, copyrights and databases is a total mess, the patents bit is about the cleanest and I'm sure people know about the troubles there with the patent trolls. As to copyright I guess Mickey Mouse says it all. Dmcq (talk) 13:53, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The basic answer, as a matter of principle, is that maps, being that collection of colours, lines and symbols, can be copyrighted but map "data", i.e. the information about what's where which is encoded in such maps, is not protected by copyright. Speaking generally, therefore, you cannot photocopy a map created by someone without permission, but you can draw your own map using their map for information about where things are. The answers above that talk about whether copyright is claimed over one map or another miss the point. However the precise division between what is protected and what is not varies between countries, and of course the more you copy of the origianl map the more likely you are infringing the copyright. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That is the "basic" answer but it is not, in fact, the correct answer. Even in the US the idea/expression divide is quite murky. There have been lawsuits over this as recently as a decade or two ago; it isn't clear-cut at all. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:44, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems to be clear in the UK - see Centrica and Ordnance Survey settle AA copyright case, in which the AA had used data from OS surveying which included fictitious entries, in this case trap streets, included to prevent plagiarism. It cost them £20 million. Alansplodge (talk) 17:04, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In a common law jurisdiction, a settlement is often not considered to provide 'clear' results, since it could easily arise because the defendent perceived the cost of them settling would be less then them trying to challenge a lawsuit. Also in a borderline case, if both the defendent and plantiff feel they have a fair chance of winning and losing, they may feel it's better to settle somewhere in the middle. (In fact in such cases the defendant would potentially settle for less then half of what they may expect if they would win, recognising that establishing case law not in their favour could easily cost far more.) Of course in some cases the law is considered clear enough that it's unlikely to ever go to court. Nil Einne (talk) 04:14, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It has been said that the Thomas Guides place non-existent streets and other features into their maps so that they can determine if their copyright has been broken. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Some good replies already, but AFAIK OpenStreetMap themselves are changing from CC-BY-SA (which it's not clear is very useful for them) to an open database license, to protect their database right better (presumably something they think is more legally defensible). - Jarry1250 [Deliberation needed] 19:01, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Using OS map data, for example, to create your own uncopyrighted map is an incorrect statement. Anything derived from OS data still needs to carry their Copyright. Where I work, if we want to create uncopyrighted data, we have to use data we acquired, for example aerial photography and digitise off that to get underived data. If I were to draw around my house on an OS map, technically this would still hold their copyright. 195.49.180.85 (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I have a question--did the U.S. govt. create a new National Atlas in 1997 in order to prevent these types of copyright problems (since government-produced materials are in the public domain)? Futurist110 (talk) 02:04, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Westley Allan Dodd
I saw an episode of the show Most Evil where Westley Allan Dodd was featured, and they said that his father knew of his deviant sexual desires from father and son chats. Does that make him responsible for the crimes his son committed since he sought no help for his son? Nienk (talk) 12:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Morally: perhaps. Legally: probably not.  Assuming he knew about the actual crimes (and not just the horrible desires that motivated the crimes) then that comes under misprision (and in particular misprision of felony).  Both are rather incomplete articles which don't talk specifically enough about the jurisdictions in question - but, if we take them in general, they suggest that just knowing about the crime isn't sufficient: for the father himself to have committed a crime: he would have had to take some active step to conceal or abet the crime. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:14, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Two problems with this: one, there is no kind of "help" that is known to stop someone like Dodd from wanting to harm children. Even castration, as useful as it sounds in theory, doesn't take away the perpetrator's base urge to harm kids; it only takes away one of the perpetrator's tools. Two, blaming the parent is basically looking for a scapegoat instead of an explanation. Some people are just bad, and there's no way to stop them from doing evil short of confinement or execution. It's also difficult to impossible to do anything about a man who says he wants to hurt kids; the cops' hands are tied, and the potential murderer could easily claim that the person reporting the "desires" is lying for their own purposes. --NellieBly (talk) 17:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Nellie, saying "Some people are just bad" is also failing to look for an explanation. If we can decide that the actions of certain people are capable of explanation (I'm not talking about condoning them) but those of others are utterly beyond comprehension, who gets to decide who's in which group?  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  22:35, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The courts, of course. The way I look at it is that genetics and environment are not the only factors in human development, there's also a random element.  For example, even identical twins raised together can sometimes have different personalities, even so far as one being heterosexual and one being homosexual. StuRat (talk) 22:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The courts? They're interested in the "why" issues, only insofar as determining the degree of guilt. If there are mitigating circumstances, there's a chance they'll be given a reduced sentence, or found guilty of a lesser charge, or acquitted entirely, but possibly due to being of unsound mind, and they still end up being incarcerated indefinitely.  But really getting to the bottom of what led to the person committing the vile actions in the first place is not the job of courts but of the psychological fraternity, who can spend many decades on individual cases, often fruitlessly.  Just because we haven't got to the answer yet, and may never get to it with our current methods, this does not permit us to explain it away with "he is just a bad person".  --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  23:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The courts do seek to determine motive, inasmuch as is possible. The cause may be that a cosmic ray struck a cell in the developing embryonic brain and caused a change in that cell.  However, after the fact, I don't know how you could ever hope to nail down such a cause.  So, for our purposes, it's just random. StuRat (talk) 23:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That's a left-field possibility, given that the causes of human (deviant and non-deviant) behaviour are generally considered more likely to be found in earlier events in our histories. Particularly, but not exclusively, those involving other people.  Particularly, but not exclusively, our families of origin.
 * What do you mean "for our purposes"? --  ♬  Jack of Oz  ♬  [your turn]  00:04, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * If it's not possible to know the exact cause, we just consider an event to be random. For example, a rain drop hitting a particular spot rather than another.  It's not truly random, but is so complex and unpredictable that it might as well be.  StuRat (talk) 00:10, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Fiscal projections/estimation
I would like to know if there are any guides or information about how to go about making a fiscal projection. For example when the Congressional Budget Office estimates the costs of a proposed piece of legislation, what is their methodology? I realize they use complex economic models, but maybe there is a guide someone that could summarize the general idea? Specifically, I am wondering how I would estimate the amount of revenue lost from taxes and increased entitlement (Medicaid, etc.) expenditure if I knew that an industry would decline by X amount and employment would be reduced by Y number of jobs. Calculating the direct losses is relatively straightforward, but how should I account for the ripple effects (e.g. decreased demand due to lower income)? Eiad77 (talk) 20:50, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this helpful? (from the CBO's site)  Hot Stop  03:30, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I looked at that earlier and saw that it said that they publish their methodology. But when I looked at their actual estimates/projections, they don't seem to include a methodology.  For example here:http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/43471-hr6079.pdf.  It's more of a summary, but I don't see how they get the actual numbers.Eiad77 (talk) 12:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you tried contacting them? Or maybe get in touch with an economy professor at a local college.   Hot Stop   13:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Start with history: so much revenue per source and so much expenditure per department or program, per year. Second, evaluate how changes in the economy (growth, unemployment, inflation, interest rates, minimum wage, demographics, educational attainment, etc) affect each side of the balance sheet. Note that this is generally done on an economy-wide basis, rather than an industry-specific one, except (perhaps) if the proposed law is highly specific, such as wheat subsidies. Third, make projections for each significant indicator out the desired number of years. This gives you the baseline projection, the “if present trends continue” number.

Next, evaluate the impact on each indicator of the proposed change in law, and the expected revenue or legislated expenditure required to fulfill the law. Finally, adjust the baseline projection for the expected changes. Oh, and unless you're the Congressional Budget Office, don't forget to inject some political bias! DOR (HK) (talk) 05:41, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but how would I get the impact? For example, in your wheat subsidy example.  How would I account for the increased amount of income tax resulting from the increased employment?  How would I account for the increased demand in other industries?  How would I account for the increased spending done by newly hired employees?  How would I account for the increased profits in related industries (e.g. bakeries)?  All these changes would cause changes in revenues/expenditures.Eiad77 (talk) 12:52, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, you build an economic model with lots of assumptions and hope no one looks at them too closely. Seriously, budget projections are a huge amount of art, a lot of math and a fair amount of guesswork. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:28, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Capture of Guam
Following the bloodless Capture of Guam by American forces in the Spanish-American War, the Spanish garrison and government officials were taken on board American ships as POWs, and an American citizen was installed as temporary governor of the island. Were any American troops left behind to guard or maintain order on the island, or to protect the new governor? Our article mentions that the four ships to take part in the capture sailed on to Manila, but it doesn't mention if their entire complements went with them. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:04, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * According to Francisco Portusach Martínez citing this New York Times article, the Spanish simply refused to recognise him immediately after the Americans left, so it doesn't sound like he had any troops to enforce his position of governor. It also goes on to say that the spanish were subsequently massacred by the natives, but no mention of American troops, so I think they left nothing other than a verbal instruction that Portusach was to be their governor. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:42, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, according to José Sisto, Portusach was the only American citizen on the island after the American ships left. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact Sisto's justification for overthrowing Portusach was that the American occupation was void because, "the 1884 Berlin Conference stated that a country had to actively occupy a territory with a military force to claim ownership of a seized territory," so, no, they didn't leave any troops behind at all. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)