Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 February 19

= February 19 =

Passbook and money market accounts
According to, banks can change the interest rate on passbook savings accounts in the United States any time they want, within a 5% reason. Is the same true for money market accounts? Albacore (talk) 03:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * See the terms and conditions of a particular bank's account. (Yes, that long-winded small print nobody actually reads). Truth in Savings Act gives some guidance regarding disclosure rules. I'd say banks can pay pretty much whatever rate they like, as long as they're honest about what they pay. If you don't like the rate you're being paid, I'd say you should simply switch banks. Bankrate is a useful comparison site, for example. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 20:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Where does the US House of Representatives get the funding for BLAG?
The House of Representatives, through the Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group, hires outside counsel to represent them in legal battles. Where does the funding come from? Donations from individual representatives? 50/50 from each party's battle chest? Or (and I seriously hope this is not the case) siphoning off their general expense account? 99.245.35.136 (talk) 04:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The BLAG works primarily with the U.S. House Office of General Counsel, see OGC Home Page. According to the rules of the House  Rule 2, section 8, the Speaker sets the pay of the employees of the OGC.  Being U.S. Government employees, OGC is likely paid out of the same bucket of cash that the rest of the Government is paid from.  The existance of the OGC is authorized here in the U.S. Code, Title 2, Section 130f.  I have no idea how this applies if the BLAG decides to go outside of the OGC and hire outside counsel; where that cash comes from.  Primarily, it seems, the BLAG deals with issues related to legal interests of the House, rather than legal interests of its members, which is a bit of a distinction.  It seems that the hiring of outside counsel is very rare, most of what I am seeing indicates the normal course of events is to use the OGC.  -- Jayron  32  04:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I was just reading our article on DOMA and it said that the house is spending $1.5 million to hire an outside counsel to defend DOMA. Did the House not use the OGC for these cases because they know it's unrelated to the functions of the House? Or is it some other reason? In any case it sounded like it was not the Speaker who was setting the price tag but the contracted law firm itself. 99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, and to correct myself, this outside counsel is technically representing BLAG instead of the House itself. In contrast, the OGC, while controlled by the BLAG, represents the House.99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * (comments prior to EC) Its a bit messy, and not that simple, because the House claims that it is about the functions of the House, specifically over the conflict between executive privilege and legislative privilege, AFAIK, the House's main claim is that President Obama is not authorized to ignore laws passed by Congress, and the outside counsel's main purpose is argue that. This is neither here-nor-there over whether or not the DOMA is a just piece of legislation, just on the issue of what legal rights and obligations the executive branch has with regards to laws that are already on the books, but which it disagrees with philosophically.  I'm not exactly sure what the justification is for using outside counsel in stead of the OGC; nor can I find any information on who is footing the bill in this case.  (response to second set of comments) Is it representing the BLAG as a body (which is just the House Leadership), or is it representing the persons who make up the BLAG?  -- Jayron  32  05:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Our article on BLAG says "...attorneys representing the BLAG filed a brief...", but the source link is dead unfortunately. This HuffingtonPost article also use a similar language: "...attorneys representing the House's Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group...". I couldn't find the actual brief so far but I'll keep on trying. If they are not representing the House then I really don't think the House (or more accurately the taxpayers) ought to foot the bill. 99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Discussion of "think ought to" aren't really what the reference desk is about. Again, I have looked and can't find anything one way or another about who is footing the bill.  If you are concerned about ought to, then perhaps you should contact your congressperson directly, and ask their office about the matter.  Your complaint is likely to go farther there than here.  -- Jayron  32  05:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * My apologies for the sidetracking. I just thought retaining outside counsel was a common thing for the House and thus the answer would be common knowledge. In any case I found the brief [big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/DOMAfiling.pdf] and it's indeed the BLAG being represented, not the House.99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * One possibility would be to contact the Huffington Post and ask them; it looks like they have journalists working on the issue, and they may have additional information, or your question may probe them to investigate the issue themselves, if they don't already know. -- Jayron  32  05:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Call whatever office in the House of Representatives deals with the public and ask them. If you know what law firm, send them a civil email (i.e., don't start with "What right do you have to ...".)--Wehwalt (talk) 15:01, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if the House of Representatives is familiar with the UK slang usage of the word blag - to talk one's way out of something, or to obtain by deception/dishonest persuasion. As in "I got caught, but I blagged my way out of it", or "I blagged a free drink by telling them I'm a friend of the owner". Seems rather apposite. Equisetum (talk &#124; contributions) 19:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

RP pronunciation of stairs
The OED has an /s/ at the end of backstairs. Is this correct, is it a rhyme for scarce in RP? If so, is stairs also a rhyme, or does it have /z/ as in GA? — kwami (talk) 13:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * My accent is broadly RP, and I don't voice the final consonant in any of those words. I do voice it in 'scares', though (which would be a homophone of 'scarce' if not for the different voicing). This question would probably get a better response on the Language, by the way. --Tango (talk) 13:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Your word is good enough, considering the OED already says so! — kwami (talk) 14:21, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There is an issue with RP being quite varied. I would say that I speak RP, but I don't speak anything like the Queen, who also definitely speaks RP (the difference being that she learnt to speak RP in elocution lessons in 20's and 30's, while I learnt to speak it organically in the 80's and 90's). I can't say for sure how the Queen pronounces 'stairs'. The same is true of General American, of course. --Tango (talk) 14:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It rhymes with pears fairs and tears (as in tears paper). Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Tango: do you mean “scares” as a noun or a verb? &#x2013; b_jonas 16:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I pronounce them the same. --Tango (talk) 00:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

how do I address a Church Elder?
Elder Robert Smith of New Hope Apostolic Church Missouri  (Pentecostal Assemblies of the world) ? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless you have been introduced to him with a specific form of address, I would just call him "Mr. Smith". There are some forms of address that are sufficiently well known that it could be considered an insult not to use them, but how on Earth are you supposed to know how the New Hope Apostolic Church chooses to address its elders? (Unless you are a member of that church, in which case you will have better people to ask than us.) --Tango (talk) 14:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * On the rare occasions I have met well-known people, and conversed with them, I generally toss in a "sir" now and then and leave it at that.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * How frustrating. Is there a free lookup for tel nos in missouri? Gloristeen Arbuthnot please. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  17:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It probably differs depending on whether or not you are a member of the same denomination as him. If you are not, you can't go wrong with "Mr. Smith.", in the U.S. it is universally acceptable in situations where the correct form of address has not already been established.  If he prefers a different form, he won't be offended, but will offer a polite alternative.  -- Jayron  32  01:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. When I received your advices I telephoned the number I had for him (I am not a theist) and found it no longer works. Nor can I get a number for his church. So I am stuck. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  08:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say that any lay elder of a church without a working phone would have to be awfully pretentious to expect to be called anything but "Mister" if male.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * He may be retired from the New Hope Apostolic Church  Missouri  (Pentecostal Assemblies of the world). But I would love to hear from anyone who knows how to get a St Louis tel no. Kittybrewster   &#9742;  09:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * See 4-1-1 the US directory enquiries number. There is a different version 1-areacode-555 1212 which may be of more use if calling from outside the US, but you would need to know the area code for St. Louis, Missouri (314 or 636 according to the article).  Astronaut (talk) 13:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I got it from zabasearch.com. it is a 314 number. but the telecom machine thinks I am dialling 8 zeros which unsurprisingly is an invalid number. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  14:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A full list of countries with death penalty for apostasy
I'm looking for a full list of countries with death penalty for apostasy. I've already read Apostasy, but I'm not sure if it's the full list. Thanks, Oh, well (talk) 14:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * One complication is going to be that many nations which lack an official death penalty for apostasy will have a tribal justice system that does. These tribes may keep it secret when they execute someone for it. StuRat (talk) 18:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, so what about a list of states in which execution for apostasy is statutory? Thanks, Oh, well (talk) 14:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Just my opinion here, but I think that the Iraqi and Afghanistan civilian death toll would be considerably lower if these were Christian countries. So, in my personal ethos I would count each of those deaths (only the difference in civilian death toll, mind you) as an execution for apostasy. 84.2.147.177 (talk) 15:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * That depends on the time period. Due to the relative weakness of the Church today, it is unable to execute people for apostasy, but, back when it was at it's peak power, it could, and did.  See Spanish Inquisition. StuRat (talk) 21:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

is it usual or possible to get a ba in music from a conservatory
or does a ba only come from universities?


 * In the UK only a university can award a bachelor's degree. However, some conservatoires in the UK are departments of a University so can award degrees, usually through that university. I'm thinking of, for example, Birmingham City University which took over Birmingham School of Music (Conservatoire) in the 1980s. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The Royal Conservatoire of Scotland awards its own bachelor's degrees (from 1993; before then the degrees were awarded by the University of Glasgow, but it was never a department of the university). Graduate degrees are issued by the University of St Andrews (I don't know why not Glasgow or Strathclyde - I suspect politics). -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks for this respponse. I'm also interested in other countries! (esp. european ones). I know this is hrder to track down... --80.99.254.208 (talk) 20:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Entrance Hall
Another dumb blonde question: How is "entrance hall" related to Colleges?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 15:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you have some context for us ? Perhaps it means a hall (large room) where entrance exams are given ? StuRat (talk) 18:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * An obvious answer perhaps but many building have what is termed an entrance hall; I assume that most colleges will also have one. Gurumaister (talk) 19:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I heard it in conversation, however don't remember the exact words. A hall (large room) where entrance exams are given sounds like what I remember in the conversation. From what you gentlemen are saying, it also then fits foyer.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The only circumstances in which I can possibly imagine interpreting "entrance hall" as something to do with an entrance exam would be if I had already had it explained that in the particular institution under discussion had such a naming convention (but I have never heard of such an institution). I would say that you safe in assuming that an entrance hall is a hall (I think Americans would say "lobby") by which one might enter a building. --ColinFine (talk) 00:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * And if I was asked what an "entrance hall" was, in general, that's what I would say. However, I was trying to find an answer that specifically related to colleges. StuRat (talk) 00:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, since commencement speeches are given after students have finished their studies, maybe an entrance hall is the place from which they exit the college and go out into the world. I only mean that half-jokingly.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  08:27, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sinn Féin's nationalism
Is Sinn Féin's nationalism civic, ethnic or somewhere in between? --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 18:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I would think it would be primarily religion based (Catholic), and also somewhat ethnic (but this is complicated by some of the Protestants being English and some Irish). StuRat (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Traditionally, the Social Democratic and Labour Party were more civic nationalist and Sinn Féin were very heavily religious/ethnic nationalist. With the weakening of the SDLP as a major force in Northern Irish politics however, Sinn Féin has been picking up more moderate and liberal nationalists. Smurrayinchester 19:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest the ideological division between the SDLP and Sinn Féin was primarily about the correct approach to achieving a united Ireland, respectively by peaceful means or by "armed struggle". (Indeed, the link to the article on Civic (or Liberal) Nationalism quoted by the OP specifically comments that Sinn Féin are liberal nationalists). A brief view of Sinn Féin's policies on Equality displays none of the Blut und Boden style thinking typical of ethnic nationalism. The only Sinn Féin policy which has an element of ethnic nationalism is support for the Irish language, but this is not to the denigration of English . Moreover comments that Sinn Féin are "religion-based" are very wide of the mark. For historical reasons, Irish Catholics have mainly been nationalists and (in the last century or so at least) nationalists have mainly been Catholics, but Sinn Féin's policies are not especially in keeping with the teachings of the Catholic Church on social issues; for example they support same-sex marriage . With regard to StuRat's comments, none of the Protestants in Ireland (North or South) are "English" (with the obvious exception of people born in England who have gone to live there). Some are descended from English settlers who settled there several hundred years ago, and at least as many are descended from Scots settlers. However, none are English or Scots now, although those Protestants who are Unionists maintain that they are British (which is no more an ethnicity than American is). Others who are more versed in the subtleties of Irish politics may wish to add more, but I felt a corrective was needed to responses thus far. Valiantis (talk) 05:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

honorary doctorate
Notable author Jane Schmoe receives an honorary doctorate from XYZ University (I'm not sure of the occasion for the doctorate but I think commencement speakers traditionally receive them, so that's one possibility).

To what extent is it expected and/or acceptable to refer to her as "Dr. Schmoe" in her later doings, if she doesn't have any other doctoral degrees besides the honorary one?

Thanks.

67.117.145.9 (talk) 19:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It is not generally expected at all. Some honorary awardees who don't have their own earned degrees insist on being called "Doctor", but most don't.  I'd go for the default case unless the person indicates otherwise. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * From Debrett's: "In practice, when a well-known figure outside the academic world receives an honorary doctorate, the recipient does not generally adopt the title of 'Doctor', especially when he or she already has other styles or titles, for example a peer, an officer in the Armed Forces, a judge, etc. This, however, is a matter of the recipient's choice." (http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/professions/academics/doctor.aspx) - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm, the person I have in mind is in the academic world. Does that change things?  I don't think she refers to herself as Dr. Schmoe though.  At least her personal website doesn't mention it as far as I notice.  (And that Debretts page says surgeons aren't supposed to be called Dr.  That's the first I ever heard of that.  67.117.145.9 (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That practice varies from country to country. Some surgeons insist on "Mr", as if being tarred with a common-or-garden "Dr" is somehow beneath them.  Reverse snobbery of the worst kind, imo.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  22:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It's rare, but not unknown; in general, it's only done if the person uses it themselves, cf/ Ian Paisley, in which case it's a matter of personal preference as to whether or not you do. If they don't use it themselves and you still refer to them as Dr. Schmoe in the knowledge that they only have an honorary degree, it's going to seem implicitly sarcastic or mocking - which, of course, may be intended... Shimgray &#124; talk &#124; 22:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I still see see Paisley being referred to as "Dr Ian Paisley" in the press, even though he's been Lord Bannside for nigh on 2 years now. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  22:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Most academics, for whom a Masters, Doctorate (PhD) or Habilitation is a "no-ticket-no-start" work qualification, as well as an example of research output, are aware of what a DLitt (Hon.) means, and how it differs from a DLitt. People usually end up judging each other based on quality and quantity of research output. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, this person has an MA (and an honorary doctorate) and is a professor of journalism, and a Wikipedia article mentions her as Dr. So-and-so. I'm wondering whether to ask for it to be changed. Thanks for any advice. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 22:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Honorary_degree has the answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ib30 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It might help if you told us which Wikipedia page you're referring to. You could also raise this question on the talk page for that article.  RudolfRed (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The page is John Forbes Nash, Jr. The external links section mentions a video by his biographer "Dr. Sylvia Nasar".  Prof. Nasar's academic background is in her faculty profile here and the only doctoral degree mentioned is an honorary one from De Paul University.  I thought about putting an edit request on the article's talkpage, but decided to ask here first what the usual way to deal with this was.  Thanks. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 23:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What about Dr. J.? -- Jayron  32  23:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In this case, it would be correct to refer to her as Sylvia Nasar (or as Professor Nasar). She doesn't use the doctorate herself; I'm guessing this is someone trying to be correct and going a little too far... Shimgray &#124; talk &#124; 13:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Vijay Mallya has an honorary doctorate and uses Dr before his name. -- Supernova Explosion   Talk  07:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant point of information. Dr (David) Carey had an honorary ecclesiastical doctorate and used it. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  08:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * When you say Dr. Carey, do you mean the Archbishop? He had a variety of honorary degrees, but he also had a "real" PhD. (Our article claims it was from Durham, but Who's Who gives London.) Shimgray &#124; talk &#124; 13:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Kitty did specify Dr David Carey, not Archbishop George Carey. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've known a few different D.D. holders in the USA who were typically addressed as "Dr. ___", although they didn't refer to themselves that way. Nyttend (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mormons abroad and learning native languages
Since Mormons never mission in their own country (apparently), does that mean that there are Mormons in some country who actually sit down and learn Swedish just to go to Sweden and knock doors and speak with people in their native language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 22:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've never heard that Mormons don't mission in their own country. I got the impression that most, if not all, are American, but why wouldn't they mission within America? Ib30 (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * LDS church members do have missions in the US. Some go door to door here, as elsewhere, and some serve their missions at various museums and historical sites throughout the US. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * We do have an article on the subject if it helps: Mormon missionary. -- &oelig; &trade; 23:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I never heard the word "mission" used as a verb before. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)


 * And what about it in the gerund form missioning? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ib30 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * This is Swenglish. The Swedish word for 'evangelise' is 'missionera', literally 'to mission'. One of those false friends. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:43, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It was discovered recently that they don't operate in Ireland. They're working on correcting this glaring O'Mission. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Very funny. I have a friend who is from a Mormon family (he is not observant, himself), from Utah, and his brother is missioning in Peru.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The ones in France speak French, to varying degrees of fluency, but they always have a native speaker with them. (Actually, I am more amazed that there are native French-speaking Mormons than I am that American Mormons would learn French.) Adam Bishop (talk) 09:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Some come here to Australia and cope with our version of English. Given the trouble I had ordering a Coke in the US, that's no mean feat. HiLo48 (talk) 09:58, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I remember the day I had a knock on my door. There were two young men in white shirts and name tags.  The first name tag said "Elder Smith".  I asked if his friend's name was Goldsbrough Mort, but he just looked blankly at me.  True story.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  10:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you linked Goldsbrough Mort. I understood the story without the link but otherwise I doubt if anyone but Australians aged over 50 with rural connections would have a clue what you're talking about! HiLo48 (talk) 11:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The story was mainly for your benefit, HiLo. The link was for others.  :)  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  11:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Mormons certainly do proselytize in the United States. But they may concentrate on cultural environments that are particularly alien to Mormonism. I saw them particularly often when I lived in San Francisco, which they might consider especially in need of salvation.  This page suggests that Mormons really do learn Swedish to proselytize in Sweden. Marco polo (talk) 14:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed that they proselytize in US, but concentrate in certain areas. College towns, for instance, have a much higher incidence in my experience. As to the confusion on where they will go on mission: I believe there is a strong tradition at least that the mission takes place somewhere else, i.e. not in one's hometown. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That sounds right; I've seen missionaries several times in Bloomington, Indiana, and one of the very few times I've seen them otherwise (and the only time I've talked with them outside of Bloomington) was in West Lafayette, Indiana. Nyttend (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)  Please don't complain about my willingness to visit Purdue while an IU student :-)

Here's a little bit about how LDS missions work. Each missionary applies to, serve a mission. When you apply you'll indicate things like health problems, languages spoken, time spent in foreign countries, etc. All the applications are then sent to a central office which then responds back with a mission call. The mission call specifies what mission you'll go to and what language you'll speak. So you may be called to go to, for example, San Fransisco, Laotian speaking or to Laos, Laotian speaking or to Sweden, Swedish speaking. You can be called to anywhere in the world, either in your home country or elsewhere, but not to where you currently live. After you accept your mission call (which nearly, but not all, people do) you then report to a Missionary Training Center on a specified date. If you will be speaking your native language, you spend a couple of weeks there before you head out to your assigned mission. If you're learning another language, you'll spend about two months learning the language at the Training Center before you're sent out. The new missionary is then assigned to another missionary and a city or area. Sometimes one or both of them will be native speakers, but often that's not the case. So both of those white shirted missionaries may have never even heard of your language a year ago... Tobyc75 (talk) 02:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The American LDS missionaries I met in Taiwan some 30+ years ago were well-known among the foreign student population for being excellent linguists. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)