Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 January 10

= January 10 =

Largest dowry in lands
What was the largest dowry ever, measured in amount of land given, not money? Like Margaret of Denmark whose marriage brought Orkney and Shetland islands under Scottish control.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 00:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

At the same time as Orkney and Shetland Isles came under the Scottish Crown, the rent paid annually for the Western Isles to Denmark (previously Norway) was cancelled so the de facto ownership of the three island groups changed hands at the same time. --Bill Reid | (talk) 16:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Does the Habsburg acquisition the Burgundian territories count? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No the Burgundian territories were inheritance from mother to son, not dowries.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 08:38, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * In 1598, Philip II of Spain gave the Spanish Netherlands and Franche-Comté to his daughter Isabella as a dowry on the occasion of her marriage to Albert of Austria. Iblardi (talk) 10:40, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Shetland and Orkney were not actually a dowry, but rather the security on a dowry that was never paid, according to Shetland. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Bombay was famously included in the dowry of Charles II's queen Catherine of Braganza -- not sure how much territory was included... AnonMoos (talk) 15:51, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The union of Brittany and France? Maybe Brittany isn't so big though. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:48, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If the Spanish Netherland and Franche Comte were indeed a dowry, I think Iblardi has found the largest one, I can't imagine anything larger. (BTW They were significantly populated areas as well as significant in size.) --Lgriot (talk) 09:33, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How about the Polish-Lithuanian union? I'm not sure it was really a dowry either though. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Scotland's records of birth at ScotlandsPeople.gov.uk
q1. Why does the list only go back to 1855? q2. Under "Mothers maiden name" what does "Not permissable" mean? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  12:24, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If you want people to answer questions, it would be sensible to give them some idea about the subject of your question. What list? What records? What context does "Mother's maiden name" appear in? --ColinFine (talk) 12:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying, but it would have been kinder if you had added a comment to say you had expanded the title, rather than leaving my reply looking foolish. --ColinFine (talk) 12:38, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Q1. It tells you on the site. "The statutory registers comprise the official records of births, marriages and deaths in Scotland from 1 January 1855 when civil registration replaced the old system of registration by parishes of the Established Church (Church of Scotland)." If you can't find the answer here, then I'm sure emailing the site owners, looking on the site's "help and other resources" page, or asking in one of their discussion forums, would provide the answer. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Q2. Also from the site: "For security reasons, restrictions have been placed on modern deaths index searches which include the Mothers Maiden Surname, and on the results of such searches." --Melburnian (talk) 12:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  13:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Census 1911 Lancashire, England
What are these occupations? Q1. Agent Mill Haulur, Celorogrvird. Q2. Beamer Cotton Sam Q3. Cap winder? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  13:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe that you will find these all relate to the textile industry: a "mill agent" (factory executive); a "cotton beamer" put cotton warp thread onto a loom, a "cap winder" put thread onto shuttles. Rmhermen (talk) 15:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you reading a transcript or can you see scans of the Census returns? "Haulur, Celorogrvird" looks like a bad (machine?) transcription of something that's not very legible - if you look at the scans you might be able to figure out what it's supposed to say. --Nicknack009 (talk) 15:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No it is as you say a bad machine reader, not an original. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  16:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The odd one out here is "mill agent", which if it's what we think it is, you wouldn't expect to find associated with the other two (manual) trades! Googling cotton beamer throws up various lists of occupations (1, 2, which may be useful for trying to figure out what the garbled text in #1 is. I concur with Nick's advice to look directly at the original note, if you can see it - census transcriptions are famously strange at times. Shimgray | talk | 19:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you have a name or address it might help if we can have a look at the original? MilborneOne (talk) 19:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The 1911 Census for England is behind a paywall, I'm afraid. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * But some of us can still access it but we need a name/address to find the entry. MilborneOne (talk) 21:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Sam Arbuthnot, aged 18 born c.1893 Aspull. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  22:33, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

"Agent" and "Hauler" don't fit together for me. I guess something is a misreading, probably "Agent". Might have been "Asst"? --Dweller (talk) 13:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Q1 - Sam Arburthnot aged 18 "Coal Miner Haulier Belowground" MilborneOne (talk) 19:42, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Theme park
I have a keyring with two pictures in it. I do not recognise the key. The pictures are (1) a series of steel balls, 8 surrounding 1, 1 is connected to each other ball, the outer balls are also connected to the 3 balls closest to them. There seems to be a miniature "village" beneath them. (2) shows a sort of honey bear monster wearing a european t-shirt (gold stars on a blue background) with a small girl whom I don't recognise. What park is it please? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  16:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds like Mini-Europe (Edit: And for clarity, the balls will be Atomium, which is together with ME but separate) --Saalstin (talk) 16:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

what's it called when two temporally different storylines in one book/film, e.g. the new madonne film?
what's it called when two temporally different storylines in one book/film, running side-by-side, e.g. the new madonne film? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.10.218 (talk) 18:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Parallel storylines is a common technique that I believe you are describing. Two story lines that do not necessarily cross at any point are described. They progress in a similar manner or events in one lead to insights about the other. -- k a i n a w &trade; 18:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * (That would probably be Madonna and W./E., by the way. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.96 (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC))

Surnames as movie titles
I saw Ben-Hur again the other day, for the first time in about 20 years, and I reminded myself that "Ben-Hur" is the main character's surname (his given name being Judah).

I was thinking of other movie titles that consist of just a surname, and Patton, Cromwell and Wilson came straight to mind. There was an Aussie movie called Petersen, and the French film Piaf, both from 1974. A Russian film was called Tchaikovsky. Not sure whether Willard was his surname or his given name.

There was Elizabeth, which doesn't quite fit, as Elizabeth was not her surname as such, but it is the name under which she is sorted, which corresponds to the surname for non-royals.

Lawrence of Arabia wouldn't fit, as it's not one word. Neither would Dr Zhivago, Mr Arkadin, Mrs Soffel or Mister Buddwing, for the same reason.

That's all I could come up with, but there have to be lots more. Any ideas? --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Constantine (film), Hitch (film), Hancock (film), Ali (film) (you think Will Smith has a thing for surnames?) are the ones I could come up with-- Jac 16888 Talk 20:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There is also Nixon. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:24, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I've now also thought of Wagner, Elgar, King, Butley, McLintock!, and 3 versions of Luther (1928, 1973, 2003).

There have been at least 3 films called Jesus. Lots of films about Muhammad, but none of them are called just Muhhamad. Whether Jesus or Muhammad would do as surnames is arguable. --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  20:42, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Frankenstein, Gigli, Gandhi --NorwegianBluetalk 20:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe an asterisk for Young Frankenstein. And then there's Capote (film). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Category:Biographical films has a lot of listings, some of which are single names. Disraeli (film) is the first one I happened to see there. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There are also TV series. Mannix, Kojak and Columbo come to mind. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * And still they come: Shaft (1971 film), Harper (film), Woyzeck (1979 film), Chaplin (film), Valmont (film), Serpico, Nelson (1918 film), Nelson (1926 film), Marlowe (film), and Pollock (film). There are also several listed under Ivanhoe (film).  --Antiquary (talk) 21:26, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't forget Casanova (2005 film) and the other similarly titled films listed near the bottom of our article Giacomo Casanova. By the way, my recollection is that "Willard" was the character's forename rather than his surname. Deor (talk) 22:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Oo, oo, oo! Please sir, Goldfinger (film), Bose (film), Mesrine (1984 film), MacArthur (film), Wilt (film), Scrooge (1913 film), Scrooge (1935 film), Scrooge (1951 film), Scrooge (1970 film), and various under Molière (film) and Svengali (film). --Antiquary (talk) 22:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * For the Werner Herzog fan: Woyzeck (1979 film), Stroszek, and of course Fitzcarraldo. Staecker (talk) 22:55, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * And Bullitt, Otley (film), Faust (1926 film), Faust (1960 film), Faust (1994 film), Faust (2011 film), Sade (film), and De Sade (film). Maybe we can include Dracula as a surname.  He's identified with the historical Vlad Dracula in the Francis Ford Coppola version and some others.  --Antiquary (talk) 23:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Technically, "Ben Hur" was more of a patronymic than a surname... AnonMoos (talk) 23:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, so the one that started this all off doesn't even quite belong. How ... Mosaic.  I thought of some more: Münchhausen (film), Stavisky, Wilde, Curtin (2007 film), Kinsey (film), Rembrandt (1936 film), Madigan, and an Honourable Mention to Unman, Wittering and Zigo.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  23:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Milk (film) - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, one and all. I'm now making a comprehensive list, and will report my findings in due course.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  18:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * For the end of the list: Zelig. Card Zero  (talk) 17:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Not many women on this list, quelle surprise. It should include Silkwood and Carrington. And if Young Frankensetein, then Young Victoria (as per Elizabeth, above). Mononymous person was interesting. BrainyBabe (talk) 21:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * CardZero, I can now beat Zelig: Zhukovsky. My, all these zeds.  Where's Sluzzelin when we really need him?  :) --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  07:37, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Pretending to take medicine: is it real?
In some fictional stories, people discard medication gradually to pretend to some authority that they have been taking it. For example, instead of taking a pill every day, they secretly drop a pill down the drain to convince whoever is checking the box of pills that they are actually taking the medicine. Two examples from literature are I'd like to know how often this happens in real life, and in what contexts. Is children or adults that do it more often? &#x2013; b_jonas 20:55, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Szabó Magda, Sziget-kék (chapter 14) where 10 year old Valentin has pulled this trick with vitamin pills against his mother.
 * a more, um, serious example is Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time, where Jeremy Clockson empties his liquid medicine in small doses to hide not taking it from a guild official checking on him.


 * Note that an adult of sound mind should be legally able to decide for themself if they want to take a given med or not. They may elect to pretend they are taking it, but it would be wiser, in my opinion, to tell the doctor they refuse that med, so the the doc can find out why and perhaps suggest a different med that the patient would be willing to take.  Children don't have that option, so might very well pretend.  Their short-term orientation also means that avoiding an unpleasant taste now may outweigh curing their disease later.  Mental patients are another case.  They frequently feel they don't need meds such as antipsychotics, when clearly they do.  On the other hand, some mental health facilities seem to prefer to keep their difficult patients in a near catatonic state rather than do the painstaking and costly work required to actually treat them.   StuRat (talk) 22:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * This is a philosophically interesting question. If the person secretly concealing the fact that they are not taking their medicine is good at it, we may never know that they are doing it. HiLo48 (talk) 07:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * For search: deceive. &#x2013; b_jonas 11:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * See our article Rosenhan experiment for a fairly extraordinary case of this - in order to test the validity of psychiatric diagnoses David Rosenhan had nine perfectly sane volunteers (including himself) attempt to get admitted to mental institutions for brief auditory hallucinations (faked) and then immediately on admission revert to their normal behaviour. Every one was diagnosed with schizophrenia (although one was initially admitted with a less severe diagnosis), and only discharged upon their false admission that they had a mental illness and accepting treatment with anti-psychotics. These they flushed down the toilet to trick medical staff into thinking they had taken them. Equisetum (talk &#124; contributions) 17:26, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone known to me was repeatedly given pills to take by the staff at their care home, instead slipping them into another container to avoid confrontation with the staff (and believing the pills were causing a particular side effect). So yes, this did happen in at least one case. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * A common practice is "cheeking" a pill. To reduce the chance of cheeking, the nurse can have the patient drink a quantity of water with the pill (not that effective) and inspect the mouth afterward (highly intrusive and risks getting bitten). Liquid doses are much harder to cheek. If medication is dissolved in juice, there is no way to "cheek" a glass of juice, though I suppose it could be regurgitated later in private. Blood samples can be taken to verify the dose is getting to the patient's system. Many pets are very good at "not swallowing" pills placed in their mouths, and spitting them out later. Edison (talk) 00:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Thanks for the replies so far.  &#x2013; b_jonas 15:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

spy cities
In a conversation earlier today, the city of Budapest was noted as being full of spies. That started a conversation about "spy cities" and how some, such as New York, are much more spy-filled than others, such as Los Angeles. I searched for some sort of criteria or lists of cities in which spies tend to congregate and found nothing, which I expected. I don't personally believe that any specific city may be identified as being particularly more spy-filled than any other city. It has more to do with government and military presence. So, is there some sort of list or simply criteria that identifies, say, they top 20 spy cities in the world? -- k a i n a w &trade; 20:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * There were a few infamous espionage hotspots during the Cold War. For the case of Helsinki, see this. Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 21:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The presence of embassies or consulates provides a way for spies to communicate with their home country. Of course, these days, with encoded Internet messages, this may not be as necessary, although delivering a bundle of cash to be used for bribes is still useful.  During wars (including cold wars), neutral cities serve as an important way to communicate with spies. StuRat (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Lisbon in World War II "was dubbed the 'capital of espionage'" because Portugal was neutral and "it was the only city in wartime Europe whose airport offered flights to both London and Berlin." "Vienna is still a favourite playground for spies". Clarityfiend (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems, from the examples, that you want a large city (easier to hide your espionage) that's near the center of activity, but in a small, neutral country, presumably because it would have a weaker counterintelligence service to bother you. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The novel Harlot's Ghost by Norman Mailer features a part set in Montevideo. From the way the city is described in the book, it seems as if little else is going on there apart from Soviets and Americans spying on one another. Gabbe (talk) 10:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Our Man in Havana is a lot like that. And Istanbul is supposed to be a permanent "hotbed of intrigue". --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  10:25, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Vienna. Just google Vienna and "spy capital" to see results like this: . Rmhermen (talk) 16:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Hong Kong, back in the day. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Maximum duration of a contract
How can I go about researching the maximum legally permitted duration of a contract between two parties in various jurisdictions? I've read that, at least in the US, judges have frowned upon contracts that have a perpetual term; but I have had trouble Googling anything about this subject. Google results up toward the top of my searches are all about labor contracts, including those of professional athletes, none of which is in my area of interest. I am under the impression that this may be the reason that the Church of Scientology signs billion-year contracts with some members, but, again, that's not my area of interest. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:29, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think the assumption is correct. I'd assume that (nearly?) all sales contracts are perpetual, for example - you keep the car, I keep the money. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * What type of contract(s) are you thinking of? As Stephan Schulz notices, things like contracts for sale are generally perpetual; if I buy a car and fulfill the terms of the purchase agreement, I won't have to give it back to Ford a hundred years from now.


 * Good points, sorry for being unclear. I'm interested in contracts that bind the two parties' actions:  I promise to pay my neighbor Smith $100, and Smith promises to not plant any palm trees on his property "in perpetuity", or however long the maximum duration of such a contract can be.  I'm not concerned about unconscionability, if that matters (like paying Smith $10 in exchange for a promise to wear a red shirt in perpetuity).  Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Common law gave us the 99-year lease (and occasionally the 999-year lease) as a maximum term for real estate contracts; many jurisdictions have since modified or eliminated that limit. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * There's the traditional Rule against perpetuities, but it was rather specialized... AnonMoos (talk) 23:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know if this helps, but from following AnonMoos's link and the things linked from that, it looks like Executory contract is the most relevant term, and seems to be a productive google search string. I found this - see second column; don't know if it's what you are after. IBE (talk) 09:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually as stated in the article, an executory contract is a contract that hasn't yet been performed or executed, so I don't think it's particularly relevant &mdash; though the reading was interesting at your link. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

The law on easements varies widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in several countries it can be a perpetual agreement of a contract-like nature. Gabbe (talk) 10:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks all for the responses; the absence of a definite response makes me think there's no maximum term duration under the law, except for some of those real estate situations and the rule against perpetuities linked above. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)