Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 July 1

= July 1 =

Coronation of Aragon
When was the last coronation in Aragon? --The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 07:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * According to Theresa Earenfight, Alfonso V of Aragon was not crowned, although his father and other predecessors were. That would suggest that the last coronation in Aragon was that of Ferdinand I and Eleanor of Alburquerque in 1412. I doubt any of Alfonso V's successors was crowned king of Aragon. Surtsicna (talk) 11:12, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Author J. S. N. Sewell
Question on the author J. S. N. Sewell, author of the books Gray's School Days, Black and White, Adventure on Wheels, Rules of the Road, Second Innings, The Straight Left. Can any user please tell me what the initials J. S. N. in his name stand for? Thank you Simonschaim (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:30, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * This page speculates that he was 'John Swindale N. Sewell', that name matching a birth certificate produced in 1904 in Stockport, and a death registration in Basingstoke in 1988. - Cucumber Mike (talk)

Thank you Cucmber Mike. However this page is just speculation. I require something more definite. Simonschaim (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. Unfortunately, I don't think that the answer is available online. For answers to this, and your previous questions, I think that you would benefit from a visit to The National Archives. You can also search around for archives on their website: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk - If you're going to go to Kew you can use this to find potential targets before you go. You might find ED270, Committee of Privy Council and successors: Various Lists of Educational Institutions and Departmental Staff to be of interest, for example. By the way, I did find a London Gazette listing for Sewell, suggesting the N stands for 'Nanson'. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 10:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Which would explain his consistency in keeping the specifics of his name hidden. ;) Snow (talk) 21:58, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Looking for audio files of very foreign languages
I wish to give my students a taste of how different languages can be, so I'm looking for some kind of audio files repository. I can go and do a manual search for examples, but this will take a very long time. I also tried to search wiki commons, but did not manage to come up with a search criteria that will yield only audio files. TIA! Zarnivop (talk) 11:26, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The University of Antwerp hosts a large number of recordings of readings of The North Wind and the Sun in over 70 languages. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:48, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * God bless you. Alternatively, in case you believe God does not exist, I bless you. This is excellent! Zarnivop (talk) 12:20, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You bless the OP, but how can we know that you exit? OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Not exactly foreign languages but the British Library website has a big language section on the very varied Accents/dialects of the UK with audio ( http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/index.html) though you need a plug-in to make it work. Google are involved in a site that is looking to save/document endangered languages (http://www.endangeredlanguages.com/) and that has a very very wide variety of languages on there but not all have audio. ny156uk (talk) 19:33, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You could look through what is available in Commons:Category:Audio files by language, and perhaps, especially, Commons:Category:Pronunciation. V85 (talk) 22:35, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure if videos are of any use but there is InuvialuitTelevision at YouTube which has several in Inuvialuktun, look for ones featuring elders. Kitikmeot Place Name Atlas will read out place names in Inuinnaqtun. I just found the Lomax Collection Recording of Inuktitut, Western Canadian which I hadn't seen before. Also if you can use videos and they have seen The Man Your Man Could Smell Like Old Spice advert then this is good. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 01:32, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

What did they do with a frozen body in Michigan's winter
This is a genealogy question: My great grandfather, John Caldwell, died in Big Rapids, Michigan, on 24 Dec 1874 (or 24 Dec 1872). He was very poor at the time of his death. He was an American Civil War veteran. He was attended to by a doctor at the time of his death since they knew he died of streptococcus. Michigan State records show he died in Mecosta County (Big Rapids area), but do not give a cemetery. His residence, where his wife was at the time of his death, was Hillsdale, Michigan. At the time he had his illness he was visiting his sons in Missaukee County, Michigan. They took him to Big Rapids for medical attention. Michigan at that time would have been in the depths of winter and the ground was frozen. How would they do a burial at that time? How would they handle the dead body at that time? The cost to send him back to Hillsdale would have been prohibitive as the family members did not have that kind of money. Looked for him in the large cemetery in the Big Rapids area - however he is NOT there. So since he appears NOT to be in Big Rapids and Hillsdale NOR Caldwell Cemetery in Missaukee County, what suggestions do you have where I might look and how I might do that search? I have been looking for years to no avail.--Doug Coldwell talk 13:03, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone's got him in a family tree, in ancestry.com, but no indication of burial arrangements. 1805-1872, right? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:44, 1 July 2012 (UTC) Right you are Bugs!--Doug Coldwell talk 20:06, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22738816@N07/7021362059/   GENDIS Michigan


 * In areas were the ground was frozen, burials were often left to spring. If he was poor, then it likely that at best, he would have had a simple wooden headboard or if he was that poor, he might have had an unmarked paupers grave. You would need to find out if there are written records of interments still in existence. These day you should be able to find out by email -but beware, the person on the other end may not be bothered enough to actually search and just post back a short – no record found – simple because they didn't even look. Here is a bit about winter burial. --Aspro (talk) 14:11, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * It isn't safe to assume that the ground was frozen, and even if it was, the frozen zone in that part of Michigan would typically only go a few inches deep, so it could easily be broken through with a pickaxe. Looie496 (talk) 16:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've tried digging through frozen clay with a pick (I expect Michigan is a bit chillier than the southeast of England in the winter), and "easily" isn't the first adjective that springs to mind ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 16:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Even nowadays in the north, bodies are typically stored in a freezer during the winter, and then buried when the ground has thawed and all ice and snow are gone, a factor Looie may have forgotten about. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:32, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * @Looie. The frost line in that general area is 3 to 4 feet. Check a local building code for the depth of support columns that must start below the frost line. Generally there is about three feet of earth put on top of a casket itself about 18" thick. Bielle (talk) 20:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Is there any possibility he was cremated ? StuRat (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Didn't think of that! THEN the cost of transportation would be minimal. Did they do cremation in 1874?--Doug Coldwell talk 20:41, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Cremation says that the first cremation in the USA was in 1876. --ColinFine (talk) 20:42, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Cremation is more of a recent trend in the U.S. Pre-dug graves were also a method cemeteries used. Just guess how many townfolk weren't going to make it till spring and dig some holes ahead of time. Rmhermen (talk) 20:50, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the many answers.--Doug Coldwell talk 22:06, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There are a couple of things missed here. It is possible to dig a grave in winter using a pickaxe and shovel but it takes a lot of work and graves tend to be shallow, about 1 m. To make it easier you can melt the surface with a fire first. A slightly easier way is to combine the pick and shovel with a jackhammer, which could have been used to dig your great grandfather's grave as it was invented in 1848. Of course today all you do is get the backhoe. And Bugs, I'm not sure where you mean by north but we don't leave them until spring. Even before we got a backhoe in Ulukhaktok graves were dug in the middle of winter if they were needed. Also pre-dug graves were/are frowned upon because everybody knew the story of the one community that dug a certain number graves in the summer and had the exact number of deaths, higher than normal of course, during the winter. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 01:15, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The northern USA, especially in small town cemeteries, where they would have to deal with a couple of feet of snow as well as frozen earth. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:02, 2 July 2012 (UTC)


 * shows the average daily highs and lows for each month for Big Rapids, MI. For December it is 32 and 18. The frost line does not plunge to maximum depth as soon as winter starts. The "frost line" represents extreme conditions, like prolonged below zero weather with minimal snow accumulation. Once the crust is broken, the digging is about the same as any month. I have found this to be true at construction sites in areas of similar climate to Michigan. (Maybe  it was colder or warmer back then. The weather bureau archives can be searched at  ) Edison (talk) 19:32, 2 July 2012 (UTC)


 * (Apologies to User:Rmhermen) You are all missing what at least used to be the most direct solution: before the coming of winter, graves were pre-dug and covered, normally at a periphery, with temporary internment as needed, and reburial later if a family plot was available. Dru of Id (talk) 04:58, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Degas' At the Milliner's and The Forsyte Saga
Ok, got an obscure one for you guys. In the 2003 conclusion to Masterpiece Theatre's adaptation of John Galswothy's The Foryste Saga, this picture, supposedly by Edgar Degas, is featured prominently in the narrative. It certainly seems consistent with his style and is similar in content to a series of his works (see: 1, 2, 3 4, 5, 6, 7) several of which are titled At the Milliner's, or similarly -- indeed it seems that, after nudes and dancers, women trying on or making hats was Degas third most prodigious thematic genre of work. However, I have never been able to unearth any indication that this painting is in fact a Degas and it seems more likely that it was commissioned to replicate his style while also making the subject appear similar to the character of Fleur in The Forsyte Saga, since in the narrative there is supposed to be a similarity (interestingly, in the novels, the painting is a Goya). However, after finding no definitive answer after the odd intermittent bit of research over the years, and on the slim chance that it is simply a lesser known work, I put it to the reference desk - genuine article or decent homage? Snow (talk) 21:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The last link you gave, number 7, shares nearly identical items with the Forsyte painting. A blue hat lying on the table and a yellowish hat propped on a stand ornated with a green scarf. (See File:Edgar Germain Hilaire Degas 011.jpg). The angle and position of these objects is the same too, while other objects from the original painting are cut off or beyond the frame. This makes me think it was commissioned, as suggested by yourself. Going through Degas' millinery series, you don't see this kind of detailed repetitiveness at all. ---Sluzzelin talk  21:21, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, the painting's current host, the Art Institute of Chicago, writes "X-ray examination revealed that this figure originally represented a customer, but in his rethinking of the subject, Degas withheld the information necessary to determine her identity." The painting from the Forsyte Saga does seem to depict a customer (while the original shows an employee). Coincidence? ---Sluzzelin  talk  22:19, 2 July 2012 (UTC)


 * That's a very interesting observation. The third image cited in my original post also boats some similarities, with regard to the posture of the woman who is the subject (though the angle of perspective is quite different) - I should have mentioned to begin with that the painting is identified in the narrative as Girl at the Milliner's and is supposed to be a copy, not an original.(rather crucial info to leave out, apologies); I have never previously found a specific historical record to the title.  This does indeed seem to imply she's a customer, an idea further reinforced by the relationship with Fleur, who, just a few scenes before the painting is introduced in an art auction, is shown out shopping with her father Soames Forsyte, who beats out another eager bidder to posses it -- without delving too deeply into the narrative and character, it's safe to assume Soames took the girl to be a customer.  All of that said, it's interesting that you should mention that angle, since the story is, on the whole, preoccupied with the concept of wealth, and is an exploration of a upper-class and property-minded family being forced slowly into the modern era and coming to terms with being past the zenith of their status.  Although there is very little poverty explored for contrast, one of its central themes is very assuredly the exploration of the effects of money and privilege upon one's perspective.   Then there's this discussion on yet another Milliner's paitning (Youtube).  Wealth was certainly a sort of un-focused-upon subject of much of Degas work; much of it was commissioned portraits of the elite, and even a lot of his non-commissioned work comes from observations of this world.  But as he grew older he also began to focus heavily upon workers - aside from the Milliner's there are launders, ballerina's (who were not exactly at the top of the social or economic ladders at this time unless they were one of a few elite masters) and even women who are hinted at as prostitutes.  There's also this, from our own article: "His interest in portraiture led Degas to study carefully the ways in which a person's social stature or form of employment may be revealed by their physiognomy, posture, dress, and other attributes." In any event, whether there's though-out intention here, I hesitate to say, but it all makes for intriguing coincidence even if not, though I suppose some overlap is inevitable, given the themes of the story and prevalence of art within it. Snow (talk) 00:56, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Sun goddess/moon god?
Other than Shinto, what mythologies have a sun goddess and a moon god rather than the other way around? --108.225.117.142 (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * From Proto-Indo-European_religion "The Sun and Moon are often seen as the twin children of various deities, but in fact the sun and moon were deified several times and are often found in competing forms within the same language. The usual scheme is that one of these celestial deities is male and the other female, though the exact gender of the Sun or Moon tend to vary among subsequent Indo-European mythologies." So, in some Aryan derived religions, it is the case.--nids(&#9794;) 23:36, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


 * A few further links at this previous ref-desk thread. Deor (talk) 00:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC)


 * In the older Germanic languages, the word for "sun" usually had feminine grammatical gender, and the word for "moon" masculine (as in modern German today), but I don't know that solar or lunar deities were prominent in Germanic paganism... AnonMoos (talk) 00:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)