Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 July 8

= July 8 =

North Koreans stranded in Libya after the regime change - How to get them help?
There were a handful of North Korean workers in Libya on some type of labor exchange program. Then when the rebellion rose up to overthrow Gaddafi, the North Korean laborers witnessed dissent.

Fearing that they'd sow the seeds of dissent back home, the North Korean government abandoned their workers there.

Now that they're stranded in Libya, I would be more than happy to get them to seek asylum at the closest US diplomatic mission.

We have a policy to accept North Korean defectors. Now the next step is, how do I contact / find the abandoned North Koreans and get them to seek asylum at one of our embassies? --70.179.170.114 (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, to begin with, how did you find out about these labourers? Snow (talk) 03:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I believe the OP is referring to this, which I found on Google.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  16:14, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * It might be easier to go the other way: contact the embassy and let them know about the abandonded North Koreans, and let them take it from there. RudolfRed (talk) 03:11, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * If the embassy could go on the local news there and tell people the North Koreans will be welcome in the US, and give out the address of the US embassy, I imagine many would find their way there. If you want to spend some money to make this happen, perhaps some ads in the local papers, in Korean, might help.  Of course, verify that this is OK with the US embassy, before telling people to go there.  Also, if South Korea will accept them, many might prefer to go there, especially if they have relatives in SK.  StuRat (talk) 04:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * They will probably prefer to go to a country where North Korean is spoken. μηδείς (talk) 01:21, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You mean the Korean language (shared by NK and SK) ? StuRat (talk) 02:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Can't get anything past you, can one? μηδείς (talk) 02:51, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You might want to use small text and/or a smiley, when making a joke. Otherwise, people might take you seriously. :-) StuRat (talk) 18:47, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Who are you? Do you work for the US embassy in Libya? If not, I don't really see why it has anything to do with you. Just let the US embassy deal with it. I'm sure they know as much as you do about the situation. --Tango (talk) 02:32, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe the OP is Korean? My family did what they could for our relatives behind the Iron Curtain. μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * They may know about it, and be obligated to help, if the North Koreans show up and ask to defect, but that doesn't mean they will lift a finger to make this all happen. If the North Koreans don't know they would be welcomed there, and have heard anti-US propaganda all their lives, they aren't likely to walk in uninvited. StuRat (talk) 02:43, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I am pretty sure that they will have the common sense to sort themselves out. These are doctors and nurses, as well as construction workers. They are well educated. I am sure they will have the sense to act appropriately.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  08:31, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Given that the news was broken by a South Korean news agency, it sounds like South Koreans are well aware of the situation and the usual charities and pressure groups would no doubt be trying to get them rescued to South Korea already. It's been about 10 months since that news report, if they are willing to go there they are probably in South Korea already. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:32, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Since the U.S. considers North Korea a supporter of terrorism and a nuclear state, I would doubt that the U.S. would grant asylum to North Koreans unless they were trying to defect, which, according to the OP, does not seem to be the case. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 11:49, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The worse the nation is, the more likely the US is to grant asylum to those trying to leave it. We don't get a lot of requests for asylum from Canadians ("If you send me back, they'll force me to say OOT !"). StuRat (talk) 01:00, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Historical nominal GDP statistics for various countries before 1960?
Is there any site that gives reliable historical nominal GDP statistics for many countries for periods of time before 1960? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Futurist110 (talk • contribs) 05:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * These should get you started: 1, 2, List of regions by past GDP (PPP) Snow (talk) 06:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, but I explicitly want nominal (not PPP) GDP data for years before 1960. Futurist110 (talk) 09:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * measuring worth? Fifelfoo (talk) 10:05, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I saw that one before, but it only has 4 countries or so on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Futurist110 (talk • contribs) 10:08, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Various pages linked to on reference number 2 above have this data for different countries/regions. Unfortunately I haven't found any indexes that provide concentrated statistics for the whole world (at least, not indexes of the free variety), but if I turn anything else up, I'll let you know. Snow (talk) 10:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Is Fraserburgh the furthest north settlement in the United Kingdom that has over 10,000 residents?
I think it is, but I am not sure. Am I correct?--XKQ7 (talk) 15:01, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, is there a way of getting a chart which tells me which settlements in the United Kingdom exist that have no settlements at a more northerly latitude that have a higher population? For example it would include at least London (nothing bigger further north), Glasgow (nothing bigger further north), Aberdeen, Inverness, Elgin, Fraserburgh, Stornoway, Kirkwall and Lerwick (and probably some other English settlements that I have missed out, as well as some tiny settlements on Shetland).--XKQ7 (talk) 15:07, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * A method of correlating lattitude and population should be a fairly simple job for a database program, but I doubt it is possible here on WP. Roger (talk) 16:28, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It may be worth pointing out to the OP, before embarking on such a task, that Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness, Elgin, Fraserburgh, Stornoway, Kirkwall and Lerwick are not 'English settlements' in that they are not in England, but Scotland. Maybe they were in the past, but I doubt anyone considers them so nowadays.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  17:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think XKQ7 meant "English settlements other than London"—for instance, I don't think there is any UK city north of Birmingham with a greater population. Deor (talk) 19:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * To confirm what Deor implied, there is one major gap in XKQ7's list. Our list of largest United Kingdom settlements by population places Birmingham between London (larger, to the south) and Glasgow (smaller, to the north), and the list of urban areas in the United Kingdom (which uses a different definition, of contiguous urban areas) places the West Midlands conurbation in that position.  Whichever you choose depends on your definition of the term "settlement".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * PS: If you rely on the "urban areas", you would interpose the Greater Manchester Urban Area and then the West Yorkshire Urban Area between the West Midlands and Glasgow - increasingly far north (though their areas overlap in latitude), and decreasingly large. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:41, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The list of towns in the Aberdeenshire article would seem to rule out any there - all the major towns are significantly further south. Moray and Highland (council area) don't have such convenient ordered lists, but the only towns I can see that have articles and come close on both measures are Elgin, Buckie, Thurso, and Wick.  You mentioned Stornoway, Kirkwall, and Lerwick, which all come pretty close to 10 000, and are the largest settlements in the Western Isles, Orkney, and Shetland, respectively.  So I would guess that these are the only contenders - some of them are close enough that I suppose it could come down to where you draw the settlement boundaries, and where you measure the latitude from.  Also, note that most of the population data is still based on the 2001 census, so could be a little out of date. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 20:29, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Elgin is certainly larger than Fraserburgh, but is also further south. :)  Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:10, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I did say "come close". There only seem to be a couple of miles in it. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 23:29, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Here are some 2008 figures and it looks to me that Fraserburgh is the right answer. Thincat (talk) 23:42, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

How did Stalin "backstab" Japan?
H. Beam Piper's story "The Mercenaries" (1950) contains this line (explaining why Sugihara is unlikely to be the spy): "... The Japs'll forgive Russia for that Mussolini backstab in 1945 after the Irish start building monuments to Cromwell." Huh? —Tamfang (talk) 21:55, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Declaring war and invading Manchuria 3 days after Hiroshima, perhaps? FlowerpotmaN &middot;( t ) 22:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * That would be my best guess; doing so was a violation of the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact signed just a few years earlier. I'm unsure though, since backstab seems strong wording for something everyone had to see coming.  Japan and Russia (and the U.S.S.R.) have a long history of conflict over territory in northeast Asia so it could refer to any number of events, but the Mussolini reference does seem to imply that it took place in a context around WW2. But seeing as Piper was primarily a sci-fi/alternate history writer, are we sure this event even took place? I'm unfamiliar with "The Mercenaries". Snow (talk) 22:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I think everybody saw it coming but the Japanese, where overly optimistic thinking had completely divorced them from reality. StuRat (talk) 22:28, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * "in 1945" also seems to imply a context around WW2. — The Manhattan Project is mentioned in backstory, so it's not alt-hist (as of when it was written!). The "mercenaries" are scientists and technicians working on one of several rival projects to establish a military Moonbase. —Tamfang (talk) 22:36, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I had to check too to see if it was one of his Paratime stories, but nope.... :) Written in 1950, but set in 1965. Haven't had a chance to read it all, but the context seems to suggest the back-stab refers to the breaking of the non-aggression pact as a reason the character wouldn't help the Commies. (It's on gutenberg.org, if anyone wants to have a look; a lot of H. Beam Piper stuff is as copyright wasn't renewed in the 70s) FlowerpotmaN &middot;( t ) 22:48, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * "'in 1945' also seems to imply a context around WW2." Woops, heheh, quite right. Snow (talk) 23:02, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The reference to Mussolini is a bit odd, though. I suspect that the author was conflating the Tripartite Pact (Germany, Italy, and Japan) with the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact. StuRat (talk) 22:32, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * It might also be that someone (the author, the editor or someone else) wrote "Mussolini" instead of "Manchuria"... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the Mussolini reference is to the fact that Mussolini declared war against France only after Germany had crushed all serious resistance there, and then swept into southern France to pick up as much territory as they could grab. Looie496 (talk) 23:52, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Could be, but that wasn't exactly a "backstab", as France and Italy weren't allies. StuRat (talk) 23:54, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * My recollection is that they did actually have a treaty of neutrality (the Italians were terrified of the French and British fleets), and it was certainly seen at the time as a purely cynical backstab. Looie496 (talk) 23:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * But "swept into" isn't quite the right phrase. The French gave them a bloody nose, despite being on the verge of military collapse. They never got past the Alpine Line and their thrust along the coast could only advance 8km. See Italian invasion of France. Alansplodge (talk) 00:35, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. But in any case that article gives the quote that is the key to this question, from Franklin Roosevelt:  "On this tenth day of June 1940, the hand that held the dagger has struck it into the back of its neighbor." Looie496 (talk) 00:46, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Seems like a solid and probably accurate analysis for Piper's phrasing to me. But we're unlikely to know for certain, I suppose. Snow (talk) 02:00, 9 July 2012 (UTC)