Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 June 14

= June 14 =

Elf workshop in movie
There was a cartoon movie that had an elf trapped in some cabin with a loose screen door that sad something like door of certain doom. The elf couldn't leave because he was told if he goes though the door (which is barely hanging on) he will surely die. But it is only his belief and fear that keeps him in the cabin/workshop. I cannot think of the name of this movie. Please help 98.20.140.74 (talk) 11:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * [Query duplicated on the Ents Desk, where perhaps it would be more appropriately addressed.]
 * OP, please don't post a question on multiple desks: it may cause unnecessary duplication of effort on the part of we (entirely volunteer) answerers and may also confuse you if applicable but different answers wind up in two (or more) different places. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 13:02, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Bound Delegates
In the Republican presidential primaries delegates are described as "bound" and required to vote for a candidate. What happens if the delegate does not vote as he or she is "bound" and votes for someone else instead? What kind of penalty is there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.140.74 (talk) 11:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There are fantastically strong pressures to vote as you are pledged in the party convention. Many delegates to the convention are often young party hopefuls who are looking to run for office in the future, and people who have a reputation for not towing the party line don't get the support of the party if they want to run for office.  -- Jayron  32  11:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's hard to find any information about this that isn't written by diehard Ron Paul fans, but from what I've heard, some states have laws that require the delegates to vote in accordance with the primaries, but these are trumped by the Republican Party's rules, which say the delegates can vote for whoever they want. I think I remember reading that there was some kind of court case about this? 130.88.99.231 (talk) 13:53, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * If you have the patience to dig through the 84 page pdf of the filing, here's the court case I think you're talking about, which is an active lawsuit seeking to free the bound delegates' votes, as far as I can make sense of it (IANAL). http://wilco287.com/documents/1_COMPLAINT_SACV-12-00927-DOCJPRx.pdf The original question about what penalties exist is a good one, but I have no idea if it's at all consistent: this may well be a case where each of the 50+ party rules (states plus D.C. and territories) has its own set of bylaws, some of which make penalties explicit and some do not.  I know that's the case for faithless electors: that is, some states impose legal penalties on people miscasting votes, but others do not.  Obviously none of this is especially helpful. :-) Jwrosenzweig (talk) 03:19, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

What is the relationship between Requerimiento to book of Deuteronomy?
What is the relationship between Requerimiento to book of Deuteronomy?--82.81.86.85 (talk) 12:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * What makes you think there is a relationship between the two? I can't think of any direct connection. - Lindert (talk) 12:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

You can read the text for yourself at Requerimiento. It's far more about [a twisted version of] the New Testament than the Old. If it has to be the OT, I'd see more parallels with the book of Joshua, but even that's pretty far-fetched. Is this a homework question or a quiz question? --Dweller (talk) 13:00, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * NB the last two bulletpoints are a little reminiscent of the style of the blessings and curses, outlined in the Old Testament, towards the end of the book of... Leviticus. See Bechukotai. --Dweller (talk) 13:10, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * yes i done hw - the teacher ask about tradition and i wrote about Dawah ; he wrote that also i need to write about Deuteronomy - i didnt find about it - so i hoped that someone tell me a source...--84.110.185.226 (talk) 16:37, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, your teacher has baffled us. Perhaps he will be mollified by you saying you couldn't find anything on Deuteronomy, but here's some links with Leviticus and Joshua. --Dweller (talk) 19:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

"Windows service center" scam
Do we have an article on the "Windows service center" scam? Blueboar (talk) 13:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I doubt it. It doesn't sound notable enough for its own article. --Tango (talk) 17:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, do we have anything on it in some other article (say a broader article on telephone/computer scams)? Blueboar (talk) 23:34, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * A simple wikipedia search for 'service centre scam' found Virus hoax which does mention the scam in the Virus hoax section. The section could use some work as it gives a specific introduction message from the scammers whereas unsurprisingly the precise message varies. Nil Einne (talk) 04:55, 15 June 2012 (UTC)


 * thanks... that is exactly what I was looking for. I'll try to improve the section in question (and add some additional sources as well).  Blueboar (talk) 11:38, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Art history & Francis Bacon
In New Atlantis(written in 1623) Francis Bacon describes a seal on a message: "This scroll was signed with a stamp of cherubim: wings, not spread, but hanging downwards; and by them a cross." Does anyone know of any representations of cherubim with downward-hanging wings? Or what the significance of downward facing wings would be? In general, I would helped by anyone who could point me towards any collections of 17th-century European cherub iconography (or collections that would include such collections). I'm guessing there might be some overlap with alchemical / quasi-occult imagery (e.g., the rosy cross, the color scheme blue-yellow-red etc.). Maybe a dictionary of alchemical symbology would be helpful? Any pertinent info is greatly appreciated! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.32.190.71 (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether there may be a link with the image of a specific cherub - Cupid - with downward-hanging or drooping wings, signifying grief? There's a fairly well-known reference to this in Ovid's Amores, Book III Elegy IX, Elegy to the Dead Tibellus:  "See, how he goes sadly with drooping wings" (translated here).  Nahum Tate's libretto for Purcell's Dido and Aeneas (pre-1688) uses the same imagery: "With drooping wings ye Cupids come / To scatter roses on her tomb".  Ka renjc 18:22, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Interesting! I'm guessing it's not a specific reference to Cupid, nor is it supposed to be evocative of sadness, but cross references to the classics like this are just the sort of thing I'm looking for. "Downward" suggests "subdued" but "subdued" has an ambiguous emotive valence--might be "sad" might be "humble". This would be a little more clear from the context of New Atlantis--a shipwrecked crew finds themselves before the Atlantians, the sign is supposed to be a reassuring symbol of some kind of enlightened or esoteric Christianity. --OP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.32.190.71 (talk) 19:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there a relation to the seraphim with two of their wings covering their feet. Rmhermen (talk) 19:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, according to Jewish tradition, would move according to how pleased or otherwise God was with the Israelites. To the best of my recall, this involved them turning to face inwards/outwards. Here comes the OR: Bacon's seal may have followed a tradition whereby their wings [also?] moved? In which case, it's your guess as to whether downwards is pleased or displeased... I'd go with the latter. --Dweller (talk) 21:23, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Puzzling English inscription
I'm wondering if there is anybody there who can help me understand an inscription I saw yesterday (I wasn't sure whether here or the Language desk would be better, but I've plumped for here.

The inscription is over the fireplace in the Drawing Room at East Riddlesden Hall. I've taken close-ups of the two sides of the inscription: you can just about see how they fit together in this picture.

The left hand side, which is neat, evenly cut, and clear, says "16" above and "THEY MAIDES OF" below (the fuzziness is an artifact of my camera-work). The right-hand side is uneven, of varying depths (parts of it are no more than scratched) and appears to say "48" above and "COIHN . INA :" below.

My question of course was, What does it mean? The guidebook says that "COIHN" is a spelling of "COIGN", an old word for cornerstone, and that the inscription is a reference to Psalm 144:12: "that our daughters may be as corner stones". (There is another suggestion in the guidebook, which unfortunately I have not remembered).

I find this suggestion deeply unsatisfactory, for the following reasons:
 * The right hand side of the inscription is uneven, varying in depth (some parts only scratched - including the '8' above), and contains what looks like an unfinished letter between the two words. The two letters "N" are executed very differently, and the right stroke of the first is not vertical, while the cross stroke of the second is only scratched. Also, the beginning of the inscription starts right at the edge of the panel, but the end does not go anywhere near the edge. I believe that most or all of the right hand side was executed in quite different circumstances: by a different person, or at a different time. My suspicion is that it was begun, and left unfinished, and somebody later added letters to it, probably with no interest in the originally intended text.
 * I have never encountered the spelling "They" meaning "the". The OED does list it, but only from the 15th century. The first half of the inscription is so carefully cut, that I doubt it was a mistake. I think it means "they", and guess that the intended structure was of the form "They maids of (something) are".
 * The guidebook makes no attempt to address the word "INA", which is fairly clear, except for the diagonal stroke of the "N". (The "A" is of the same design as in the left hand side, but it is smaller and less neat).
 * The OED does not list the spelling "coihn" at all. One of the meanings of "coign" is (as an alternative spelling of "quoin") indeed "A corner-stone; a projecting corner or angle of a building." - but that full definition, and all the examples, suggest that it has only the geometric or architectural sense of "cornerstone", not the symbolic sense.
 * In any case, I'm not convinced the the word does read "COIHN", as the cross-bar of the "H" is only scratched.

This is as far as I've got. Does anybody have any ideas what the inscription might have been intended to read? --ColinFine (talk) 20:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * 1648 looks like a year, so the OED saying the spelling is 15th century isn't too far off (religious stuff is often done in dated language). Maides is an old spelling of maids or maidens (ie. young women or daughters), which is consistent with the psalm. If the engraving really is nearly 400 years old, then it could be worn down enough in places so that it looks like just a scratch. Spelling in 1648 wasn't particularly consistent, so the odd spelling of coign isn't surprising. I'm not sure about INA... The guidebook's explanation seems plausible. --Tango (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The INA may be a Latin abbreviation. Something like in nomen aeternum perhaps. Rmhermen (talk) 00:14, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * According to our article on the house, it was reconstructed in 1648. The variable lettering and depth of carving may be down to two different people working on the two sections of lettering simultaneously, one of whom did a far better job of it. I'd guess that the guidebook explanation of what it means is going to be more academically rigorous than anything we can come up with. --Dweller (talk) 07:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)


 * 1648 is certainly a year, and I took that bit as obvious. The OED lists "they" for "the" as C15, not even C16: this is certainly C17. The engraving isn't "worn down": I rubbed my finger over it and parts of it are deep and parts aren't. The spelling of coign is indeed possible, but as I say the OED does not even list that as a recorded spelling. I don't believe that the explanation in the guidebook is any more than a guess, on the basis of the one clear word "maides" and a dubious reading of a dubious spelling of a word which only dubiously has the claimed meaning.
 * INA as a Latin abbreviation is the most plausible suggestion for it so far, but not impressively plausible: "The(y) maides of coign in nomine aeterno" (more likely to be ablative) doesn't really seem to make any sense to me. --ColinFine (talk) 09:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * One of the definitions the OED gives for "they" is 5. As demonstrative adj. = those II. 2, 4; but often in weaker sense, = the (pl.). Now dial (In the Sc. quots. perh. meant for þa, tha, mod.Sc. thae.) a. Qualifying a n. in the nominative case. Examples are given ranging from the 13th to the 19th century, so that is a possibility I think.
 * Looking at it, I'm seeing "COWN?INA", with the ? being either a very badly executed letter, comma, space, or perhaps some pre-existing defect in the stone that the inscriber skipped over. Then "They maides of Cown?ina" would refer to some place name somewhere.  Is there any plausible such place? Wnt (talk) 12:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The Hall is in Keighley, which, according to our article, derives from "Cyhha's farm" and was called "Cichhelai" in Domesday. Any help? --Dweller (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I see that's near Colne. Any chance this had a different spelling back then?  Hmmm, then again I also see a "Cowling (disambiguation)" nearby on the Google map,  Wnt (talk) 13:27, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It could have been a pun, taking a Biblical quote and giving it a local twist. Puns were popular at the time. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:41, 16 June 2012 (UTC)