Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 March 17

= March 17 =

Peace treaty between Italy and Japan?
Italy declared war on Japan back in 1945. Was there ever a peace treaty between the two countries? Anonymous.translator (talk) 03:29, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * No. See Military history of Italy during World War II. Oda Mari (talk) 09:00, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Should this be in the Italy–Japan_relations article? That was the first place I looked.Anonymous.translator (talk) 14:38, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Excuse my possible ignorance here, but what's the practical difference between "negotiat(ing) the resumption of their respective diplomatic ties", and a "formal peace treaty"? 58.111.224.202 (talk) 23:51, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Just the level of formality. A formal peace treaty must be approved by the full governments of each nation, and would have a formal signing ceremony, typically.  Resumption of diplomatic ties can happen at a much lower level, with little or no ceremony. StuRat (talk) 01:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The work involved in resuming diplomatic ties would be handled by government employees, mainly out of the limelight as you say, but approval to do it in the first place could only come from the individual governments. --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  02:44, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, this somewhat depends on the government. If some nation declared war on the US, but never actually attacked and the US never bothered to declare war back, and only severed diplomatic relations by executive order, they could just be restored in the same way, without Congress needing to vote. StuRat (talk) 02:49, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * For example, France wouldn't have any real need to sign a peace treaty to end its war with Elbonia if it happened in real life; nobody would mind the French diplomats going back to Elbonia despite the official state of war. Alternately, you can look at List of wars extended by diplomatic irregularity and add Italy-Japan if you have the sources.  Nyttend (talk) 04:22, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Both Italy and Japan were conquered by the Allies; and there's no special need for the installed governments to declare peace with each other, is there? It might be fairer to say that Italy declared war with one Japan and found itself at peace with another.  I mean, by analogy, if Italy had declared war on the Confederate States of America I doubt they would have had to make peace with Georgia and Texas and so forth as reorganized under Union control. Wnt (talk) 05:34, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

English-speaking class in Western Europe?
Has anyone ever considered the possibility of the emergence of an educated English-speaking —actually bilingual in their country's main language and English— class in Western Europe? A lot of people there already speak good English and some of them are pretty much bilingual because of TV and the Internet. Probably most of those with an excellent command of English will teach their children the language. --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 14:42, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * No and no. They learn English at school and their children will learn English at school. Sleigh (talk) 16:38, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a distinct class. They all learn English at school. --Tango (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In fact, there can even be a somewhat opposite feature. In some countries, usage of English terms and Anglicanized grammar in everyday speech might be a sign of lower education, as people with higher education will be more strict in speaking their mother tongue 'correctly'. --Soman (talk) 08:04, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

But I think it's a good question, as in the Imperial Russian aristocrats who spoke French en famille. I understand that many families of Chinese and Malay ancestry in Southeast Asia (e.g. Singapore, Malaysia) speak English at home, although of course they can also speak, write and understand Chinese and/or Malay. —— Shakescene (talk) 09:14, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Broadside_Perceptor -- A somewhat interesting and accessible book which discusses similar issues in a historical perspective is Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World by Nicholas Ostler... -- AnonMoos (talk) 11:36, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to all. --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 19:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It's more the case that higher classes will speak English, but speaking English doesn't make you a member of a higher class. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.106.190.177 (talk) 15:37, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Speaking English may be a sign of being educated to a high level, but lots of people in low-level jobs dealing with tourists or foreigners will also learn English (e.g. shop assistants, hotel staff, transport workers). So maybe reading/writing English would be more distinguished. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:55, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

RE;Helmer Hanssen (South Pole)
Hi, I read some of your information on Helmer Hanssen (South Pole) I am Helmer Hanssen great grandaughter Philomena Price I noticed the dates you have on his death are wrong he died in 1957 can send you a photo of his headstone if you wish and have many photo,s of Helmer Hanssen and his wife Kristina also if you wish to have them for the artical. Please feel free to contact me. Philomena Price — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.200.251.62 (talk) 15:30, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has to rely on published sources like newspapers, books etc. Depressingly the Helmer Hanssen cites no sources at all. What reliable sources I can find are the Fram Museum in Oslo, which on this page which gives 1956 (citing, I think, this article). You should probably discuss the matter, and the photos you have, at the article's talk page talk:Helmer Hanssen 87.113.82.247 (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It's a bit of a puzzle: This genealogy page gives a "Died 2 Aug 1956" and then "Cemetery Record: Helmer Hanssen Polarfarar B.year: 1870 D.year: 1957". This stone at Bjørnskinn kirke gives a date of 1956. This 2010 newspaper article says "Han døde 1956" ("He died in 1956"?). The Fram Museum's page on Hanssen says "He died in Tromsø in 1956 and the state paid for his funeral from Tromsø cathedral. A monument to ‘Polar Explorer Helmer Hanssen 1870-1956’ stands behind the Bjørnskinn church in Andøy." Alansplodge (talk) 17:07, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There's defenitely something strange going on here: there seem to be two almost identical stones at Bjørnskinn: 1870 - 1957 (source ) and 1870 - 1956 (source ). Perhaps they are the same one and it has been altered? Alansplodge (talk) 17:15, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess there could be two people called Helmer Hanssen (and sources have muddled them) - but Helmer isn't a very common name. Surely the death of Hanssen will have been reported in the death notices of Norwegian newspapers. 87.113.82.247 (talk) 17:32, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Eureka: here's his actual gravestone (source ). The inscription says: "24 - 9 - 1870 + ? - 8 - 1956". Google translate says: "Helmer Hanssen is buried in Tromsø cemetery along with his wife Augusta. An anonymous Tromsø woman has for years paid the ground rent for the grave, that has been in danger of being deleted... Now is the time that he gets his own monument, says Gidsken Halland, polar enthusiast and information officer at Visit Tromsø." She seems to be the nice lady in the photograph. Alansplodge (talk) 17:35, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Me again. I've just realised that he seems to be buried with a different woman than the one you thought was your great grandmother. You'll have to solve that one! Alansplodge (talk) 17:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No necessarily. The Fram Museum website says his wife was called "Kristine Augusta Josefine Berg" - so while the gravestone you've found calls her "Augusta", the OP calling her "Kristina" isn't inconsistent with that. 87.113.82.247 (talk) 17:55, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought I'd uncovered a dreadful family secret ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 01:04, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * His obituary in the London Times published on Saturday 4 August 1956 says he died on Thursday at Tromsoe, Norway (which would be 2 August 1956). MilborneOne (talk) 18:07, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The tombstone indicates August 1, but it could have been overnight the 1st and 2nd. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:04, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The death year was given at article creation, and the specific dates were added early last year, by an editor who might still be active, so he might respond to questions about the source. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:11, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Indian Muslim surnames used
Which surnames of India are commonly used by Muslims of different ethnic groups? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.150.48 (talk) 20:35, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Try Indian name (although the article is admittedly in poor shape). Khan (surname) appears to be a common one. ~ AH1 (discuss!) 19:13, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Butterfly Lovers
Throughout human history, there have been countless of legend stories ranging from mythical figures to ordinary people who did extraordinary things. I wonder why are those legend stories come from? Someone must have made them up at some point in time. Are they real stories or totally made up just for entertainment? Or what is any other reasons for ancient people to make up fake stories? And i also want to know specific about the butterfly lovers case. Was it real? I meant was it actually happened in real life.Pendragon5 (talk) 23:13, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Stories, Myths, and legends, usually owe their longevity, in the main, because the original events that lead to the story being repeated (and sometimes embellished beyond recognition)  reflected aspects of human nature,   and thus  they held  a moral/educational thyme that the tellers thought  that their young brats children would learn something of value from them. Also, it was a  an outlet for peoples that had a sense of history and wanted to pass it on to the next generation.--Aspro (talk) 23:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Presumably you have already read the article Legend, but if not, it addresses some of your concerns. Some legends may derive from actual people and events that are not (or not reliably) historically recorded, likely with various distortions, embellishments, and/or omissions. Others might originally have been pure inventions for entertainment, or religious or moral instruction, not originally intended to be taken literally (at least by adults). Some legends may combine two or more such elements, or be fusions of originally separate stories. These do not exhaust all the possible origins of legends, and one cannot lay down a general rule about them.
 * If a story contains obviously supernatural or otherwise unlikely elements which were intended to be believed for religious reasons, they might be better defined as Myths. One definition of a myth, which I myself find useful although others might differ, is a story (or legend) with cultural and/or religious significance whose importance was/is independent of its actual historical truth or untruth (or degrees of such).
 * Regarding the Butterfly Lovers story, the fact that it's described as a legend means, pretty well by definition, that nobody knows if real historical events definitely lie behind it, and I think we can be fairly sure that no people turned into butterflies, but some of the details in the article suggest to me that, leaving aside the fantasy elements, it might be partly based on some real events. Only an expert in Chinese history and legend might be able to say much more about it than that (in which case they ought to add their information to the article).
 * The subject of myths and legends is a very wide and diverse one. Some of the further links in the two articles I linked may lead you to material of further interest to you. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.78.22 (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "Some legends may derive from actual people and events that are not (or not reliably) historically recorded". Why those people or events were not being recorded if they were real people and events? Why did people try to embellish and distort the real stories? Could it be something unexplainable, supernatural, miracles... did indeed happen and people were actually telling the truths.Pendragon5 (talk) 20:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't have access to everything that was ever written, plus we don't have access at all to stories that folks made up and never wrote down until many generations later after they had been embellished. Some modern-day legends are easier to pin down because they are better recorded, but even now there can be unsolved and unsolvable mysteries about the origins of legends. As to "why" to embellish stories, it's because they're more interesting that way. There was a Robert of Locksley, a thief who was hanged many centuries ago, who may well be the inspiration for Robin Hood, an otherwise-mythological hero. Maybe he was known for generosity, maybe for robbing the rich and giving to the poor. Maybe he was good with bow-and-arrow. That's enough basic facts to give someone with imagination the inspiration to tell tales. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:02, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Many stories are exaggerated for reasons of propaganda or entertainment, as well as being accidentally changed. If you want to tell a good story, you may combine legends about different people to refer to the same hero, exaggerate to better fit the accepted format of legend, or you may be confused by people with similar names.  This probably happened with e.g. King Arthur, Roland, and Saint Patrick.  Stories of Jesus were probably manipulated to fit Old Testament prophecy and to match other myth systems (Mithras in comparison with other belief systems).  For propaganda you may exaggerate the deeds of your people's heroes, or make up stories about the evil things your enemies do: there were lies told in the Western media about German atrocities in World War I (e.g. The Crucified Soldier myth) and even about Saddam Hussein (Rationale for the Iraq War), so it's likely that similar lies were told before then. --Colapeninsula (talk) 15:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC)