Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 May 30

= May 30 =

requiring alcoholics to get treatment
In the United States, are there any legal obligations for an alcoholic to undergo treatment, or is it completely voluntary? I'm trying to write a paper right now where I critique another author's paper. This author has written that he thinks if drugs such as cocaine were legalized, there would be no way for courts to force individuals to obtain treatment. I want to counter this argument by writing that we do this already with alcohol, but I am not sure if this is indeed true. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!--75.185.115.35 (talk) 00:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * To the best of my knowledge, you can be as alcoholic as you like and no court in the US can stop you, as long as you don't break the law. If on the other hand you are convicted of an alcohol-related offense, such as drunk driving or a violent act where it appears that hooch was part of the reason you did it, then alcohol treatment may well be imposed as a condition of probation or reduced sentence. --Trovatore (talk) 00:23, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, an alcoholic may have their children taken away, if they don't seek treatment. StuRat (talk) 01:38, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Some states have tried to prevent drug addicts claiming welfare by requiring drug tests, most recently in Florida.. This isn't happening with alcohol yet in the USA as far as I can tell, but the British government is planning to require alcoholics to undergo treatment if they want welfare payments. (This isn't a legal obligation, but it would make treatment a practical necessity for many.) --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Many US jurisdictions require treatment as part of a probation sentence. The defendant does not have to agree to the treatment, but will usually face a prison sentence or harsher punishment if they don't.  In this sense, treatment is part of a plea bargain.  Because prostitution and drug addiction go hand in hand, defendants in criminal solicitation cases will often be offered a drug treatment program as part of a plea bargain.  The Supreme Court case of Wisconsin v. Constantineau found that before a state may publish a list of individuals who are to be banned from purchasing alcohol for "excessive drinking" must first be given a hearing and an opportunity to be heard.  Most notable in that case is that the Supreme Court did not declare that the states could not prohibit someone from drinking entirely.  Indeed, the 21st Amendment grants states the authority to ban alcohol if they so choose.  The federal or state requirement is that there be some sort of trial or hearing where the defendant can put forth a defense to keep his or her right to obtain alcohol.  It is possible for a court to restrict or prohibit the consumption of alcohol as a probation requirement and this routinely happens.  Celebrities are often sent back to jail for drinking alcohol although it is technically legal.  The author you are criticising does not understand how the law works in this country. 24.38.31.81 (talk) 15:37, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't want to be seen as giving legal advice, but I will say that as a practicing lawyer, I've fairly often seen provisions in court orders regarding children taken into the custody of social services that the parents shall get a substance abuse screening and follow recommended treatment. Violation can be punished as contempt, but it's more usual that it's ammo for social services to ask the court to terminate parental rights.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:42, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Eurobank's Logo
What's the story (vexillology) behind it?Curb Chain (talk) 04:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Curb Chain (talk) 05:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Phew! After an awful lot of Googling, I found: Perspectives on Marketing Management in Ireland edited by Mary Lambkin & Tony Meenaghan (p.252). The Allied Irish Banks logo features "one of the earliest known Celtic images of the Ark", which apparently is "a symbol of our heritage, our security and of the many communities we serve" (the bird on top is the dove returning with the olive branch, if you were paying attention in Suday School). The new corporate colours "represent the warmth and friendliness of the Irish". Click the link if you can take any more of that corporate bullshine. Alansplodge (talk) 17:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The new corporate colours "represent the warmth and friendliness of the Irish". We're wonderful people, to be sure, but.... huh? If it's any consolation, Alan, I seem to remember a fair bit of head-scratching about the meaning when the logo came out. (One point of confusion I remember was that the two circles gave the impression of shields, making the boat a bit Viking-y.) There is another explanation of the logo on the AIB website. The ark is taken from a High Cross (or strictly speaking, the stump of a High Cross) in the churchyard of Killary Church in County Meath. I'm sure there are other photos out there, but the ark is clearly visible in the first photo on this webpage. (No luck with Eurobank, either, sorry)  FlowerpotmaN &middot;( t ) 19:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I worked briefly for the giant US insurance brokers Aon plc who told us that the company's name was a Gaelic word meaning "oneness" (I'm not even sure if oneness is a word in English, I would have gone with "unity"). Anyway, it seems that aon is just Scottish Gaelic for "one" and is pronounced "een" rather than "ayon" as the corporate lackies say. Alansplodge (talk) 19:39, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, "ayon" or "ehhon" isn't too bad as a rendition of the Irish pronunciation of the word for "one", if you pronounce it as one syllable, rather than "Ay-on"; however a closer match for "unity" or "oneness" would be "aontacht". (I don't do IPA, so you'll have to do with "Ayn-takht" as a pronunciation, rhyming the Ay with a short Fonz-style "Ehh", and "Ayn-takht" doesn't quite get it right). You could see that there might be problems with going with that as a brand name. "The United States" is translated into Irish as "Na Stáit Aontaithe". (Nah Stawt Eh-n-ti-Heh is a very rough attempt at pronunciation) - if you want to work that into a conversation - or not, as the case may be. FlowerpotmaN &middot;( t ) 21:49, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I've added a brief sentence about the logo, to the Allied Irish Banks article under the "Name" section. Alansplodge (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, no joy with Eurobank. Alansplodge (talk) 17:47, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems the logo dates back to 1995. It's the same logo as EFG Bank Group . Our article (EFG International) says the organization was founded in 1995. Sometime around then there is sure to be some, as Alanspodge says, " corporate bullshine" on the topic. That's where I ran dry, but perhaps someone else can pick up the trail. 184.147.121.151 (talk) 22:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

in pale
What does "in" mean in "in pale?Curb Chain (talk) 05:15, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The page actually explains that. It means "In (the direction of the) Pale" that is, if you have, say, three objects lined up down the middle of the arms, they are said to be "in pale".  In this way, the word "in" means what it means in phrases like "in line" or "in a circle" or "in order". -- Jayron  32  05:46, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, I mean the grammatical/syntactic construction. I have never heard of "in" used in this way.Curb Chain (talk) 05:46, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Heraldry is a sort of shorthand or jargon that has its own grammar and rules, it doesn't necessarily follow common English grammar. But, in this case, as I said, the word "in" means almost exactly what it means in a phrase like "in a circle".  That is, just as I would describe the stars on the Betsy Ross flag as "in a circle", I could describe a horizontal line of stars as "in pale".  Still, the heraldric/vexalogical "code" doesn't always match up so well to common modern English (indeed, a lot of it is French in origin), but it still has its own rules, which are fairly consistant and easy to get once you learn it.  See Blazon which describes how an arms or a flag is described properly, and it goes into the grammatical rules.  -- Jayron  32  05:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * "In preposition 1 a — used as a function word to indicate inclusion, location, or position within limits" --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:24, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Che Guevara's gun/s and capture
Various accounts of Che Guevara's capture in Bolivia suggest different things about the guns captured with him. Jon Lee Anderson's account and Fidel Castro's introduction to Che's Bolivian Diary suggest his rifle had jammed or been damaged, and his pistol was out of ammunition, but other accounts suggest a full clip of ammunition was in the pistol. Is there a consensus on this, or will we just never know? Nototter (talk) 08:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Logically, he probably knew he would be executed when captured, so would continue to fight until his weapons failed him. StuRat (talk) 19:20, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Historians make informed judgements based on the sources that they have read. Therefore we can expect that Che specific histories written by historians would have been written with access to the currently available sources, and reflect the diversity of judgements of people who do history for a living.  Future sources may become available, covering exactly this point, but to be honest, the status of a single clip of ammunition is not particularly of historical interest. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)