Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 November 21

= November 21 =

Scarborough Shoal
From the article: The shoal was named after the East India Company tea-trade ship Scarborough which was wrecked on one of its rocks on 12 September 1784 with all lives lost. How did contemporaneous people determine that that ship was wrecked in that location if all lives were lost, thus leading to the name assignment? The Masked Booby (talk) 03:02, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The account in the first reference linked to from the article (whose link doesn't work but can be found in Google Books) says that "parts of the wreck had been afterwards discovered by sloops sent in search of her". I've no idea if that's true but it's a plausible explanation. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:36, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The second link appears to contain an account by the captain of the Scarborough, describing the shoal. So maybe the "all lives lost" bit should be removed.  Rojomoke (talk) 05:54, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I saw that as well but I couldn't actually verify it was by the captain of the Scarborough and not some other captain. The source plays pretty fast and loose with captains' testimonies. Both of the sources are a little problematic (one is a guy's diary from many decades after the incident in question, the other is a mariner's handbook — neither genres are exactly known for being spotlessly accurate when it comes to historical names of things). --Mr.98 (talk) 13:17, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Could it have been checked with Lloyd's Register? It was certainly going then. Hotclaws (talk) 03:20, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Longest public holiday
What's the longest public holiday in the world? The longest I've found so far is Chinese New Year which is 7 days. KislevHanukah is tied at 7 days, but it's only a school holiday.A8875 (talk) 04:28, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm mistaken, Hanukah is 8 days. Dismas |(talk) 04:32, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Public_holidays_in_Israel claims it's 7 though. Maybe the article needs some updating?A8875 (talk) 04:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That page was incorrect - Hanukah is eight days everywhere in the world. It's not clear why the error was there. It may have been due to a calculation: 8 days festival - 1 Saturday = 7 days off school, but Hanukah can occur in such a way that there are two Saturdays... and in any case the wording was misleading, so I've fixed it. Alternatively, the mistake could have been because on most religious Jewish festivals (Rosh Hashanah being a major, but not the sole exception), in Israel the observance is one day shorter than in the rest of the world. We don't appear to have an article about this phenomenon, so I've posted at WT:JUDAISM to see what can be done. So, two more successes for the Ref Desks in improving mainspace. --Dweller (talk) 13:54, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Two Saudi holidays are 10 days long.A8875 (talk) 04:34, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If you count Ramadan, that's 29-30 days. Dismas |(talk) 04:38, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems like Ramadan is the clear winner then, unless one of the Muslim country celebrate both Ramadan and Eid ul-Fitr.A8875 (talk) 04:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Ramadan isn't a holiday. Muslims work during Ramadan. Sleigh (talk) 07:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Apparently it is in Qatar.A8875 (talk) 15:19, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't trust some random website to give reliable info, particularly when it offers no explaination. The entire month of Ramadhan is almost definitely not a public holiday in Qatar, I say that without even looking at sources but a quick search finds for example which while perhaps not up to WP:RS looks far more reliable then your one and at least has some decent explaination with sounds plausible. My guess is even the first day of Ramadhan is not a public holiday. However in a number of Muslim countries there is an official start to Ramadhan and there may be legal requirements, at least for Muslims, as well as there being changes to social and business behaviour during the month. Nil Einne (talk) 17:24, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * What does "unless one of the Muslim country celebrate both Ramadan and Eid ul-Fitr" mean? First of all, as mentioned above, Ramadan is not a holiday where Muslims sit at home feasting. Life goes on as normal except for a few things like abstaining from eating/drinking/sexual relations of any kind during the day. Eid-ul-Fitr is the holiday, a celebration of the end of Ramadan lasting a day or two or three depending where you are. Second, a Muslim country would "celebrate" both or none (they all recognize both by the way). If you recognize Ramadan then you have to recognize Eid. And if you don't recognize Ramadan then how can you recognize Eid which is celebrating the end of Ramadan. Even Eid-ul-Adha in practice is three days at most. Both Eids being ten days long in the kingdom probably just means that the government shutting everything down but people move on with their private lives after a day or two, kind of like how schools shut down in the USA for the entire week of thanksgiving (as they are right now) but everyone going on with their lives except perhaps for the actual day of Thanksgiving on Thursday. Even then plenty of stores/restaurants will be open (not counting the crazy black Friday fanatics).184.96.226.214 (talk) 10:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * How about fourteen weeks for the Turkish school holiday? See also retirement.--Shantavira|feed me 11:53, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * From the same article: "In Denmark the summer holiday lasts 7–8 weeks". But I am thinking the OP meant the literal interpretation of holiday, as in religious holy days. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:23, 21 November 2012 (UTC)]
 * I'm not sure why people are thinking that. From the OPs original question it seems clear to me the OP is referring to official public holidays and not including those limited to schools only. The Ramadhan bit may have confused matters, but I think it's just that the OP incorrectly assumed Ramadhan is a holiday. Of course the concept of public holidays isn't always clear cut, e.g. in the US, and it's true in many countries there's nothing stopping businesses remainining open on some or all public holidays (usually with extra payment to staff) and so retail ones at least often do so and it's also true in some countries a fair amount of businesses (particularly offices) shut down longer then for the number of public holidays during certain periods, but it's not clear the OP cares about that. Nil Einne (talk) 13:10, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should've been more clear by saying public holiday, but I honestly didn't expect this confusion to arise at all. I realize people work on Ramadan, but this page led me to believe it's a 29 (or 30) day long public holiday in Qatar. A8875 (talk) 15:18, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm withdrawing my comments above. While I do feel the original version was sufficiently clear, given the OP's unfortunate retroconning without making this clear in the modified post when so many people have responded (which included me) and some people have already clearly been confused by the original post, I'm not going to criticise anyone but the OP here. Nil Einne (talk) 17:47, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Although not really a holiday, the Christmas season in the Philippines is the longest in the world. It begins as early as September and ends as late as January. As for the actual holidays, December 24, 25, 30, 31 and January 1 are holidays, and even offices usually shut down since many workers take the whole week off. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:51, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The term "holiday" originally meant "holy day", so on that basis presumably Ramadan would qualify, as a "holy month" of days. That's assuming it really is considered a "holy" month. Muslims could correct my impression, if it's false. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah... I do think it would help to have a clearer definition of "Holiday"... for example, should we include Catholic Holy years? Blueboar (talk) 13:52, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Please see Etymological fallacy.A8875 (talk) 15:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Notice I said "originally". And in fact it is still sometimes used as an equivalent to "holy day", but often not. And Blueboar is right that the OP should clarify just how he's using the term "holiday". Brits use the term "on holiday" to mean "on vacation", and I doubt that's what the OP means, but who knows? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:18, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should've been more clear by saying public holiday instead. A8875 (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Bugs, I think you may mean the Yanks use the term "on vacation" to mean "on holiday". --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  19:19, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Many Hindu festivals are several days long. See Ram Navami, often celebrated for nine days, and Ganesh Chaturthi, which takes place for 10 days. Also, the Holi article says in some places that festival lasts 16 days. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 13:55, 21 November 2012 (UTC) For periods of nonwork, see sabbatical and parental leave. That latter article has lots of citation needed, but claims in the Czech Republic women are granted a three-year, fully-paid break from work after the birth of a child. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 13:55, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Depending on your definitions there is the 40-day Christian Lent and the 45 day Hindu Kumbh Mela -- Q Chris (talk) 14:19, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The OP's question was extremely clear in asking about a PUBLIC holiday. (That's a link. Click on it if you're confused.) I wish respondents could stay on track. HiLo48 (talk) 19:57, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * To be fair to the earlier respondents, the OP has only latterly clarified their question, like, only 5 hours ago, but it was posted 16 hours ago. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:09, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, right. That's confusing. But at least the question is clear now. HiLo48 (talk) 22:22, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The entire month of Ramadan, and the time of Lent, for examples, are clearly not "public holidays". A public holiday is where most everyone gets the day off from work. So the probability of any public holiday lasting more than a day or two or three, is pretty remote. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:23, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * this page says that only the first day of Chanukah is a public holiday. the others are "Hebrew observance". In England and Wales, we get Good Friday and Easter Monday off, creating a four-day weekend. Although Easter Sunday isn't a public holiday, it's the only day of the year when big supermakets are forbidden to open. Alansplodge (talk) 01:40, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * They've tried that in Australia too, in some states, but they figured that if a shop wants to trade that day, and enough staff are willing to turn up that day, and customers want to shop that day, a government of a secular state has no right to tell all three sets of parties that they cannot engage in this economic activity. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  06:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting point. In essence, every Sunday was once a public holiday for those American cities that had blue laws. Blue laws are pretty well gone, but they still operate in some places, by custom if nothing else. (That again harkens back to "holiday" meaning "holy day".) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:23, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * A sovereign parliament can tell any party to do or not do anything it wants. --Tango (talk) 13:02, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Easter Sunday closing was a compromise contained in the Sunday Trading Act 1994, which reformed the rather bizarre sunday trading laws then in force. Before then it was legal to by a pornographic magazine but illegal to buy a Bible; you could buy a Chinese take-away but not fish and chips. Large supermarkets are also restricted to six hours trading on a normal Sunday. Alansplodge (talk) 17:17, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * As highlighted by the OP and explained in Public holidays in the People's Republic of China, China does have the well known Golden Weeks, formerly 3 now 2, so there arguably are public holidays lasting more then two or three days (since they normally get the entire 7 days off). However the system there is somewhat unusual, while they normally get 7 days off during the week, they only get 3 days of extra actual non working days from the week. The golden week arises from moving a weekend (possibly also with the moved day off if the holidays wall on the weekend, as is the case for other holidays and in the norm in some countries) so they work 7 days some other week. In fact while I'm not sure, I believe depending on when Mid Autumn festival falls it's possible they will have longer then 7 days during the National Day golden week. Since AFAIK, the golden week (7 days) is supposed to begin with the first day of the event, I'm also not sure what happens if it falls on a Monday (do they normally move the weekend before the Monday or some other weekend meaning they have 9 days off?) In any case, as I understand it, there is or was some degree of government involvement in the process. (This compares to in some other countries like NZ where it's common for people working in offices and some other jobs to have about 1-2 weeks off during the Christmas - New Year period as a result of four holidays, Chrismas, Boxing Day, New Year's Day, day after New Years combined with the weekends meaning people only have to take a few days of work off for a long holiday. While the companies or businesses themselves may semi force this by shutting down during the period, there's no real government involvement.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:12, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Logo's Etymology (college of Europe)
Where does the logo come from?Curb Chain (talk) 08:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It looks like each logo is just an 'E' overlapped with the initial of the place where the college is located. I'm not sure why Brugge gets a lower-case 'b', but it does. See Monogram. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The symbol on the left, under which is written "Brugge", is a "b" with a crown standing for the city (it exists on the city's coat of arms) with an "E" behind, which is obviously standing for "Europe" and the college. In this light, the symbol of the right is clearly an "N" with a crown standing for Natolin, with the same E behind it, but I'm not sure what usage this symbol has otherwise. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 11:01, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Oh that's a miniscule B? Why is it written like that?Curb Chain (talk) 22:30, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * No, but it might be a min u scule B. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * To convey that impression that it has a long history going back to medieval times? -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:16, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * According to this page, the coat of arms of Bruges was granted in 1842. It suggests the "b" is Gothic script (like the script posted on the right) rather than Carolingian minuscule, but as a rather poor caligrapher, I'd say that you'd have to see the top of the main stem of the letter to be sure. Alansplodge (talk) 01:14, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Me again. This page says "The crest shows a Gothic letter B with a crown. This logo was first used by the city in the 14th century and was later placed in the crest." So the reason it's written like that, is that it's been done that way for 700 years. Alansplodge (talk) 01:22, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Jewish cap worn by Mizrahi Haredi men
I notice that you guys didn't do an article about a hat worn by Mizrahi Haredi rabbi Kaduri. How come? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 16:25, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Assuming you mean Yitzhak Kaduri, and you mean This hat, i'm not sure what the name would be in Hebrew, but it looks a lot like a Fez or Peci. -- Jayron  32  17:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * (Edit conflict) For the curious, the Rabbi's cap looks like this. THe answer is that nobody has written it yet. It could be you! Alansplodge (talk) 17:06, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It could also be just a furless varient of the Kolpik, which is often worn by Haredi rabbis. -- Jayron  32  17:25, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Some more research indicates it may have been a kamilavka: . I'm not sure the hat is universal among Mizrahi Haredi men more than one of many styles worn by such men.  Just as the last time a question like this was asked, there isn't a universal hat worn by all such men, rather there are a wide variety of hats so worn.  -- Jayron  32  17:30, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Yet more: This webpage is from "The Philippi Collection" which claims to be the largest collection of clerical headwear in the world, and the collector appears to be an expert on the topic. You could contact him for his opinion; there is a contact link on his webpage, and he could give you an answer.  -- Jayron  32  17:33, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Keapaweo Mountain
Where is Keapaweo Mountain? Shown here?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:16, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Google suggests it's in Kauai, as with the other engraving you asked about here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That I know. I think it is an archaic spelling of some Hawaiian name for an extinct volcano in Kauai, but I don't know what is the modern name.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:52, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * How far have you researched this in Google? Have you considered contacting some Hawaiian history website? They might know. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:17, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

This book [] – full text, out of copyright, has some information that might enable you to trace the location. Search for Keapaweo. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:42, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The current spelling is apparently Keopaweo and its location is about 21.941°N, -159.3625°W. Deor (talk) 18:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Royal Staff
What exactly is the King's Staff or the Queen's Staff in Hawaii? Members in it were titled Col. and they were not politicians, distinct from the cabinet and privy council, yet they weren't ordinary royal guards. Hawaii modeled its monarchy after Britain so maybe something similar existed there too.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, see Equerry who is a always serving officer. Princess Anne married one - see Timothy Laurence. The Queen also has a Private Secretary, who is generally a former military officer and equerry. The present one is Sir Christopher Geidt. The general term for people in these sort of positions is courtier. Alansplodge (talk) 00:43, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I was forgetting the Master of the Household who is also a former military officer, currently Air Marshal Sir David Allan Walker. He also has a deputy, currently Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Richards; they look after the running of the official residences, a bit like a hotel manager. The Keeper of the Privy Purse who is the Queen's official accountant, used to be an ex-military officer, but since 1996 they have had a background in commercial accountancy (probably a good thing really). Alansplodge (talk) 13:26, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

How segregated is Iraq and Israel?
When someone carries out a terror attack, how can he be assured that he's not killing his own people? AFAIK, in Israel there's a significant Arab-Israeli population, are they fair game for the Hamas? And in Baghdad there are different Arab sects, are they so divided that a terrorist won't end up killing people from his side? Comploose (talk) 20:52, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * In the immortal words of Tim McVeigh, the innocent who are killed along with whoever the bomber thinks are the guilty ones and were the primary target, amount to "collateral damage". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:06, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * You are assuming that a terrorist bent on destruction will think very clearly and logically. You are also assuming that a terrorist will have severe qualms about hurting any of his own people and will avoid so at all costs. I disagree with both assumptions. While for some people it may be true, there are plenty of maniacs for whom killing the enemy must be done at all costs even it means the lives of their own compatriots or even their own life (hence the suicide bombers). There is also a question of self-identity and who a terrorist would consider "his own". I think you are confusing ethnicity with religion. Yes, there are Arab Muslims, Arab Jews, and even Arab Christians. But the tensions are along religious lines. A Palestinian Arab Muslim suicide bomber wouldn't care if you are Arab or not. He wants to blow up a Jew with him.128.138.138.122 (talk) 21:18, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The terrorist might even reason that there's no "real" harm to the faithful among the collateral damage, because they should instantly into the arms of God. Or, they might reason that they are actually infidels and thus they don't matter. Either way, he bombs. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:31, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You are assuming that the guy who blows himself to pieces is the same guy who leads a terror organization. They are not. The former is the mad one, but that doesn't imply that the latter is not rationally planning and manipulating this mad guy for his own purposes. So, how does it fit these purposes, if the terror act ends up killing people who are not considered fair targets? It's clear that the enemy of Hamas might include Israeli Arabs (although I am not sure about it). But what if a bomb kills a group of Muslims that are not considered enemies? I have specially in mind attacks in the center of Baghdad or on the market. Comploose (talk) 23:04, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm actually assuming they just plain don't care. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:16, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * They don't care from a human perspective, that's clear. But what about from a "bad marketing" perspective? Terrorists need to draw attention to their cause. If they start blowing people that are not perceived as the enemy, helpers of the enemy or somehow inferior, that would erode the support that they need to hide, buy weapons, get apprentice terrorists. Comploose (talk) 15:58, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds good in theory. But in reality, has it eroded their support so far? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:17, 24 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Re Israel, the UN released a report last March condemning the systematic segregation in the country. news report, UN report itself. Relevant Wikipedia articles may include Israeli settlement and Israeli West Bank barrier. I’ve found it hard to locate interviews with Hamas that address your question; perhaps because I don’t speak the languages. In this one, Mahmoud Zahar says he would disarm any splinter groups that seemed to pose a risk of Palestinians shooting Palestinians. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 13:38, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That might help with determining the segregation between Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews, but it won't help with the issue of Israeli Arabs, who in 2006, made up 20% of Israel's population. They have the same rights as any Israeli Jew, including, it would seem, the right to be blown up on a bus. --Dweller (talk) 13:48, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Does this population live in segregated neighborhoods? That's what I'm trying to google but not finding the info. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 13:53, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes and no. The communities do tend to live separately, on the whole, although without this being enforced, and there are some places of greater or lesser integration. But even in a town with easily understood "Arab" and "Jewish" neighbourhoods, on a bus with (say) 40 passengers going through a "Jewish" neighbourhood, while you might expect fewer than the average number of Arabs (8) the bomber couldn't be sure that there'd be no Arabs on board because people pass through places on their way to town, or visit other neighbourhoods to work. Bringing together both my points, while Tel Aviv may be mostly Jewish, it includes the ancient port city of Jaffa, whose population is roughly a third Arab (Muslim and Christian). --Dweller (talk) 14:35, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The point is that an Arab in Israel carrying a backpack and entering a bus that no Arabs ever takes would raise some red flags. Probably they will have to take a less than perfectly segregated bus. Comploose (talk) 16:01, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Re Iraq, this 2007 New York Times survey of Baghdad neighborhoods includes a description of how Adahamiya was sealed off with checkpoints because of Sunni-Shiite violence. The Wikipedia article List of neighborhoods and districts in Baghdad similarly defines many of the districts on its list as “Sunni” or “Shiite” (though it hasn’t been updated much since 2007). This 2009 blog post by a Baghdad resident says the city became more segregated throughout the conflict and this more recent USA Today report says this kind of segregation is still increasing everywhere in the country, not just Baghdad, as people move to where they feel safer. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 13:53, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Question... is this thread asking about "imposed segregation" or "self-segregation"? It is an important distinction. Blueboar (talk) 14:47, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It depends on how unfriendly the dominant culture behaves towards the minority culture... "Self-segregation" is often "imposed through means other than laws." -- Jayron  32  15:27, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Barriers to entry in the mining machine maintenance industry in Australia
What are the barriers to entry in the mining machine maintenance industry in Australia? Not so high that an electrician who makes A$400 a week can't make a toehold and be successful enough to be able to secure an A$500,000 loan to buy your first mine? It would seem that when you're just starting, having been an electrician making A$400 per week yesterday, before you could take any mining machine maintenance jobs, you would first need equipment, employees, at least some sales and accounting staff, legal and tax, and probably more, none of which is cheap. 67.163.109.173 (talk) 22:44, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Is there a question here, which can be answered factually, with references? HiLo48 (talk) 22:49, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, suppose there are three: 1) How did he get the necessary equipment to start a mining equipment repair company with the amount of capital he had at the very beginning of his business, 2) How did he get people to work for him with the amount of capital he had at the very beginning of his business, and 3) How did he get access to the big money decision makers to hire him and his little (I'm assuming it was little) band of repairmen at the capacity he was capable of at the time? 67.163.109.173 (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Given that being a sub-contractor is basically a dispensation or stipend—the owners of real capital control the access to capital, machinery, contracts and labour; leaving the petits-bourgeois sub-contractor as fundamentally dependent—the chief barrier to entry is suck holing the bosses' arsehole. After that you face the barrier to entry that subcontracting is a useful way of grinding safety and profit out of a dangerous and non-profitable sector, much like the pastoral lease managers who were allowed to "buy-in" in the 19th century to deliberately send them bankrupt and soak up their capital.  So chief barriers to entry are being an arselicker and being clever enough to be stupid enough to bankrupt yourself for a mining conglomerate. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:49, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds like Nathan Tinkler bankrupted himself thanks to horse racing, auto racing, and other games more than mining, which, with luck it seems, made him the money to lose. 67.163.109.173 (talk) 23:34, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you want to discuss barriers to entry, or Nathan Tinkler? Fifelfoo (talk) 13:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Barriers to entry, which curiosity of mine is motivated by his (as a concrete instance) apparently being able to overcome them while making A$400 a week, which is why I mentioned him. 67.163.109.173 (talk) 14:54, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why you think a mining maintence business needs that much at startup. I imagine it could easily be just him and some basic equipment at the start (definitely the needing for accounting and sales stuff seems questionable, have you never heard of a small business before?). I'm also not convinced of the A$400 per week. Perhaps that was his wage when he started, but if you look at it's sounds like it's very close to the minimum wage of around that period (say 1994), at least if I'm understanding it correctly as it seems to use a lot of abbreviations. My understanding from what I've read of tradespeople in Australia is nowadays at least and I strongly suspect it was also true then, a competent electrician's wage or earnings is likely to be significantly above the minimum wage. In other words, by the time he started his mining maintenence business at 26 (circa 2002) he would likely have been earning significantly more as a bog standard electrician then A$400 per week (in fact by 2002 that would be below the minimum wage). BTW, the CNN article you linked to mentions he secured the $1 million loan against his business and home. I note that no details are present either in our article or the article you linked to of his family, while I doubt they were millionares, perhaps they weren't that poor and helped him out either with his business or his home.  Nil Einne (talk) 14:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I just don't easily see some dude with a couple hundred (or even thousand) bucks worth of tools and equipment getting (and being able to deliver on the scale of) business of enough sales value to grow his "small" business enough to be able to secure a portion of a $1 million loan against it. Why would mining companies hire (consider on his business's very first sale's day) some dude with some tools when they have their own skilled employees (which he once was) or a bigger established maintenance company (which would be likely licensed, bonded, insured, etc.. such that if something went wrong (not exactly an industry where the idea of catastrophe including injury and/or death if something goes wrong is unimaginable), there was more infrastructure to go after than some individual dude and his pickup truck)? Are the barriers to entry in that sector in that geographic locale really such that any electrician with years of experience in mining equipment such as him could have done what he did? There were no doubt many people like him when and where he was. 67.163.109.173 (talk) 16:18, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The same reason companies usually outsource—to systematically weaken unions and employee solidarity, while putting the "risk" of operating certain elements of business onto smaller capitalists. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:51, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Why is the MBTI called that?
The Meyers-Brigg Type Indicator test was invented by a mother and daughter team with the surnames Briggs and Briggs-Meyers. How did that become Meyers-Briggs in the name of the test? It should be BMTI surely? 81.159.114.101 (talk) 23:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe it sounded too much like "be empty". :)  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  23:56, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator was devised by Isabel Briggs Myers (note: no hyphen) and Katherine Cook Briggs. They used their surnames, in that order. It was fairly common for women of that time not to hyphenate their maiden and married surnames. --NellieBly (talk) 23:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for that, good spot on the surnames. 81.159.114.101 (talk) 00:09, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It's also a somewhat common practice for women to change their middle name to their maiden name after marriage and eliminate their birth middle name entirely. I don't know when this practice started though, so I don't know if it is relevant here. Dismas |(talk) 06:20, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * FYI, the hyphenated or double-barrelled use of maiden name + husband's surname dates only back to the 1970's, the era when Ms. was invented. The use without a hyphen long antedates that, and was the norm for my mother and other female relatives of her generation in everyday matters.  See, for example, Emily Post, Etiquette, 1922, p. 458.  Textorus (talk) 21:59, 22 November 2012 (UTC)