Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 November 26

= November 26 =

Tolerance
I'm looking for the name of the fallacy that occurs when thinking about tolerance. It is summed up in this quote:

“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society... then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them...” ― Karl R. Popper

I thought it was some sort of equivocation or regression, but I can't find it exactly. Thanks. 129.120.4.8 (talk) 04:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It is indeed a type of equivocation, I'd call it context-dropping or definition by non-essentials. By tolerance in a political context we mean tolerance of opinion, not tolerance of force or physiological tolerance of drugs, etc.  Popper is not committing the fallacy here, he's describing it.  Those who'd replace the properly valued political tolerance of peaceful differences of opinion or taste or peaceful practices with "tolerance" as an absolute, as if we must "tolerate" those who initiate force against others, are destroying the very concept whose value they expect you to recognize emotionally, but whose nature they don't expect you to identify consciously. (That phenomenon of replacing thought with emotion is the essence of Orwell's Newspeak.)  Ayn Rand called the fallacy involved the anti-concept.  Popper's not arguing against tolerance, he's arguing that we have to know what we mean by words like it that have multiple and possibly contradictory senses in the context where we use them. μηδείς (talk) 05:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Replacing thought with emotion is not the essence of Newspeak. The essence is that if a language is not capable of expressing a certain idea, say "freedom", then nobody can imagine the concept or try to bring about its existence.  Newspeak only works if linguistic determinism is true, and very few linguists believe it is.  --140.180.249.151 (talk) 07:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll agree that that phrase would need a lot of unpacking the way I put it, my point was that consciousness is reduced from functioning conceptually to functioning emotionally (e.g., the two minute hate); but the OP can read the sources and ask more questions if he has them. μηδείς (talk) 02:21, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Tolerance is not an unalloyed good. The object of tolerance must be taken into consideration. In the absence of an articulated object, tolerance can be welcome or unwelcome. Bus stop (talk) 02:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

mizrahi and sephardi jew politics
Which political parties other than Shas do Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews support the most? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 04:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Including Sephardi in this question is pointless. That term indicates the ancestry of descendants of Jews expelled from Spain in 1492. They've lived for five (!) centuries in other countries, so those who came to Israel - relatively few, after the Holocaust - are generally identified by their place of origin, e.g. the Netherlands and the Balkan countries, etc. Those Spain-expelled Jews who emigrated to North Africa in the late 15th C. largely intermarried with local Jewish populations, so culturally would be among the "Mizrachi" of the large post-WWII wave of immigration, along with those from the Arab countries of the Middle East. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Weren't a lot of the olim from Bulgaria and Romania after World War II Sephardi Jews? Futurist110 (talk) 23:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Can someone else answer my question? Please. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I would think that the Likud would be a popular party for Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews. Futurist110 (talk) 23:17, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's an an essay on multiculturalism in Israel complete with references. If you search the web (e.g. Israel + Mizrachi + political) you'll find information from such a wide variety of sources that you'll have to decide which ones you consider reliable. At present, eight weeks away from national elections, parties are still forming: the Likud primaries were on Monday, a new party (Tnuah headed by Tzipi Livni) announced yesterday. I suggest that voters' choices reflect their positions on security (Iran, Hamas/Hezbollah),  foreign relations (Arab countries, the West), the territories (settlers, Palestinians), and economics (free market vs. social welfare). Loyalties to a particular party or politician reflect what the individual voter feels s/he stands to gain on these issues. Religious fundamentalists are most likely vote as their spiritual leaders direct. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:20, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I notice that some Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews support Kadima, not to mention the leader is of Mizrahi backgorund.

The OTHER Middle-Eastern Religions
How much is known about the other religions that are related to Abramism or to Mazdaism there were (or are) in the Middle-East? What kind of resources are there on them? 209.159.255.226 (talk) 08:18, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you be a bit more specific please? Do you mean the offshoots of the Abrahamic religions such as Gnosticism or Bahai, or whether there are still some pre-Abrahamic religions still in the area? Are you interested in any in particular? --TammyMoet (talk) 10:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * One (of doubtless several) relevant is Samaritanism. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.21.143.150 (talk) 14:02, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * And the Druze, which are not really Muslim, but related. OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:07, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Of course 84.21... means Samaritanism. When you say "other" religions, I suppose you mean other than the big three: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.  Tammy Moet has mentioned Bahai. Of course each of the big three has offshoots that are different enough to possibly qualify as different religions, such as Samaritanism (from Judaism), Gnosticism including Manichaeism and Mandaeism (drawing from both Christianity and what you call Mazdaism), and Islam-influenced sects such as Druze and Yazdanism (including the Yazidi), or sects whose Islamic affiliation is debated, such as Ahmadiyya or the Alawi and Alevi.  A number of these Islamic sects also draw from what you call Mazdaism, by which I think you mean the Zoroastrian tradition.  Another Zoroastrian-derived sect that also showed Islamic influence was the Khurramites. Yet another Zoroastrian-derived sect was Zurvanism. The Zoroastrian connections of Mithraism are debated.  Marco polo (talk) 15:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry I probably should have been more specific. I am looking, particularly, for the *older* religions in the area, ones dating from before Islam or Christianity and possible even before the consolidation of Judaism. Samaritanism and the Yezidi I already knew about, but are otherwise the kind of groups I was thinking of. I was also thinking of the religion of the Kanem, and that of the Sabians, though I don't know how reliable the reports are of them. Also, by "Mazdaism" I didn't quite mean Zoroastrianism, but rather the kinds of religions that birthed it-- I have heard that before Zarathustra, the worship of Ahura Mazda was more polytheistic. Thanks. 209.159.255.226 (talk) 01:29, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The articles Ancient Semitic religion and Religions of the ancient Near East can probably lead you in some interesting directions. -- Jayron  32  04:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * (Some forms of Zoroastrianism were compatible with temples to Anaitis long after Zoroaster.)
 * For a Roman view of Canaanite paganism, you can look at De Dea Syria by Lucian (avoid the 1920s translation into pseudo-Elizabethan English, however!)... AnonMoos (talk) 08:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Seven Pillars of Wisdom has a passage near the beginning, musing on the very wide variety of religions that had sprung up and faded out in the region over the centuries, resulting in a culture that had been shaped by the interaction of a lot of different ideas. Like Native American languages, it could be that a lot of them are undocumented or only documented in obscure scholarly places. 67.119.3.105 (talk) 18:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Punahou, Hilo
Where is Punahou, Hilo? I am not talking about the Punahou School on Oahu. I am talking about a place in or around Hilo called Punahou.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:51, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * How sure are you of the spelling? There's a small Punahoa Street in Hilo, that appears to have a Farmer's market on it. Buddy431 (talk) 02:38, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Waimea United Church of Christ
Does this image look like the Waimea United Church of Christ?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes it does. Trio The Punch (talk) 14:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Ernest Hemingway and Ludwig Renn (Spanish Civil War, 1936-39)
Hello Learned Ones ! I'm finishing the french version of Ludwig Renn in WP fr, & I suddenly note that Hemingway (to my knowledge) didn't mention Renn, a chief of the International Brigades, while he gave wide descriptions of many others (André Marty especially seems to us quite juicy & accurate). A quick look in Carlos Baker doesn't carry more fruit. WP deutsch says in a note that Renn mentioned EH curtly in his book about the Spanish war, as "an american". Was that cold eye reciprocal ? Thanks beforehand for your answers. T;y. Arapaima (talk) 11:55, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course, not everything of Hemingway's has been published yet, and if you have in mind The Fifth Column and Four Stories of the Spanish Civil War, that doesn't aim to cover all of his experiences in Spain. Hemingway's letters are being published in a Cambridge University Press series edited by Sandra Spanier, but so far there is only volume 1, up to 1922, with nearly six thousand letters still to come. I imagine some from Spain should appear one day. Moonraker (talk) 01:13, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Moonraker. Am trying to find "EH Complete stories", collected by James Fenton. T;y; Arapaima (talk) 07:03, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

RMS Titanic
Is it true that as the Titanic sank, American Civil War veteran Isidor Strauss was in bed with his wife waiting to die like in the film? Keeeith (talk) 12:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Our article Isidor Straus (note the spelling) includes the following text:
 * "Isidor and Ida were last seen on deck arm in arm. Eyewitnesses described the scene as a "most remarkable exhibition of love and devotion."
 * As the last eyewitnesses saw them on deck, it would seem that the scene in bed must have been the film-makers' imagination. However, the comment in our article is currently unsourced, so you will need to research this further or decide for yourself on Wikipedia's reliability on this point. --Dweller (talk) 12:18, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Who would know if they did? It's not likely that some frantic person would suddenly decide to peek into somebody's cabin, plus recognize the occupants. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * According to Isidor_Strauss there is no reason to believe the 1997 film's version of the Titanic sinking (dying in bed), but there are accounts of the 1953 and 1958's versions (seen on deck arm in arm with his wife). Since his body was found floating on water, I doubt he perished in his cabin. OsmanRF34 (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This is the second reference desk question I've seen about Strauss being a "Civil War veteran". But according to the article, he attempted to enlist but was turned down, and instead made money trading traitor bonds. --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:45, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, see Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 November 10, where his purported veteranity (?) was debunked. He volunteered but was rejected, and that was the sum total of his involvement in the war.--   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  22:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The direct quote, "most remarkable exhibition of love and devotion" appears to come not from an eyewitness but from a newspaper article. I found HER LOVE STOOD THE SUPREME TEST. (ARTICLE) in the The Kingston Daily Freeman, Volume 42, April 20 1912, Page 6 (but no doubt syndicated in many others); the text accompanies a portrait photograph of Ida. So the story about them is at least contemporary with the sinking, however it doesn't actually say if they stayed on deck or went to bed. I know which sounds the most likely. Alansplodge (talk) 16:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I have since found Jay Henry Mowbray, Sinking of the Titanic: Eyewitness Accounts" 1912 which quotes an account from an American journalist and survivor called Helen Churchill Candee. She said; "I saw Mr and Mrs Isador Strausss on the deck of the Titanic as I was lowered into one of the lifeboats. Mrs Strauss refused to leave the ship unless her husband could accompany her. They were on the top deck and I heard her say that she would not leave her husband. She went down with him as she had lived and traveled with him...". A further account in the same book comes from Ida's maid, Miss Ellen Bird, although reported by "Sylvester Byrnes, general manager of R.H. Macy & Co.". Ellen's description seems to end when she is put in the lifeboat in Ida's place. Alansplodge (talk) 17:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I also found the account of the ship's barber, Charles Weikman, who fell into the sea as the Titanic finally sank. He says; ""The parting of the last two boats from the ship's side caused all those on board to rush to the rail. Here I found Mr. and Mrs. Isadore Straus, their arms enfolding one another. Mrs. Straus clambered out of a lifeboat when she learned that her husband would be unable able to accompany her to safety. She remarked that she would rather stay on board with her husband than leave the ship without him. They went down to their death in the sea locked in each other's arms." There's another report about them sitting in deck chairs, which is quoted on several websites like this one, but I haven't been able to pin it down to any particular survivor. Alansplodge (talk) 18:00, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that the Strauses' devotion and love was played up (in comparison to that of other families; I do not doubt that their deaths occurred as described by surviving witnesses) for a reason not obvious to modern readers: the emphasis put upon the bravery and stoicism of "Anglo-Saxon" first-class victims, and the claims or implications by some prominent survivors and reporters that the non-"Anglo-Saxon" victims were all irrational screaming nutcases with no sense of decorum or decency. The Strauses were of course Jewish, and Jewish readers were keenly interested in the story of Ida Strauss, who was seen as embodying all those virtues attributed by the mainstream media only to "Anglo-Saxons". I put "Anglo-Saxon" in quotes because that's the term the newspapers used when describing victims of Northwest European Protestant stock. --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 01:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)