Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 July 17

= July 17 =

Looking for a reference for the article on Lyn Duff
In Lyn Duff appears the statement, "She was one of a handful of children who divorced their parents that year;[16] an issue that gained national attention when reporters revealed that first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton had completed her master's thesis on the legal right of children to divorce their parents.[17][dead link]". The dead link is to an article that, once I found it in a web archive, has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton or her thesis. Indeed, Hillary Clinton never wrote a master's thesis so far as I am aware, and this may be intended as a reference to her senior thesis, which got much media attention when it was finally publicized in 2007 (the same year the dead linked article was written). But that doesn't help me find a source for the fact that Clinton's thesis had anything to do with children divorcing their parents, or that it brought national attention to child emancipation. I find reference here, to scholarly articles written by Clinton on the subject, but I'm not sure that even qualifies as a reliable source, and certainly not for the precise claim made in the article. I suspect we have multiple factual errors as well as bad sourcing, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Hoping someone here can help me :) Someguy1221 (talk) 02:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's an Associated Press article from Sept 1992: . It says "some people" credit Clinton for a general move towards allowing children to have independent legal counsel. The next paragraph says she "wrote influential law journal articles in the 1970s about children's rights" and then attributes a statement that "her views were mildly radical at the time, but have since become standard legal doctrine in more than 100 countries" to "Howard Davidson, director of the American Bar Association's Centre on Children and the Law". He is not directly quoted, so I don't know how strong you feel this is. But it may be where the confusion started. 174.88.9.124 (talk) 12:12, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Was Roscoe Filburn ordered to destroy his crop?
In our article on Wickard v. Filburn, we say, "Filburn was ordered to destroy his crops". However, reviewing the Supreme Court decision (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=317&invol=111), and the decision below at the District Court (http://thefilburnfoundation.com/pdf/FilburnHelke), I see no record of Filburn being ordered to destroy his crops. All I find is a fine, which Filburn had the option of avoiding by storing or delivering the excess wheat. The internet is littered with claims that Filburn was ordered to destroy his crops, but I can't find a primary source for this. Can anyone point me to one? Thank you. Sancho 06:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Suppose it's possible that happened in 1941 after his harvest and before the two court cases (which came down in March and Nov 1942, respectively). However, searching the google news archive only brings up articles from 1942 reporting on the court cases, and nothing from earlier.
 * If you are a NYTimes subscriber (I'm not, sorry, so can't read these for you) the contemporary reports are March 1942, federal court ruling, November 1942, supreme court ruling and November 1942, editorial.
 * The other hits for contemporary reports are: July 1941, Nov 1942, Nov 1942 and June 1943.
 * None mention anything other than the fine. 174.88.9.124 (talk) 14:12, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Smiling cobras
Are there any references to "smiling cobras" or something similar in the Hebrew bible or the Talmud? -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 06:32, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The cobra gets mentioned 6 times in the Old Testament, but none of them seem to be smiling. I'm not sure how to search the Talmud, but I'll give it a go. Alansplodge (talk) 11:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A quick Google hasn't shed any more light, but the Encyclopedia of Jewish Medical Ethics (p.540) has some information about snakes and Judaism. Alansplodge (talk) 11:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, there is no word in Biblical Hebrew for "smiling".
 * Also note that the translation of the various biblical names of snakes and serpents is sometimes arbitrary and varies between the many Bible translations. (Older translations prefer "basilisks" and "dragons", for example.)
 * הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 18:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Are you referring to this pattern? μηδείς (talk) 17:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone. No, I wasn't referring to anything concrete, just to the phrase itself. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 20:05, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Etruscan tombs
What is the date for some of the Etruscan tumulii and tombs outside the town of Chiusi in Tuscany?74.199.32.167 (talk) 15:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * According to the articles on each of the tombs listed in the Italian Wikipedia's article on Chiusi, the tombs date from the beginning of the 6th century (i.e., 600) B.C.E. to the 2nd century (i.e., the 100s) B.C.E. Marco polo (talk) 16:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Russian patronymic
Why were the empresses Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse), Elizabeth Alexeievna (Louise of Baden), Catherine Alekseyevna (Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst) given their specific patronymics? Empresses who were given the name Feodorovna honored the Romanov patron icon Theotokos Fyodorovskaya, but why did these three choose or were given their specific patronymics?--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 22:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In general, there was a great push among Russian nobility to "Russify" themselves, especially as many of them were not, strictly speaking, of Russian families. Even the more modern House of Romanov was really the House of Holstein-Gottorp which assumed the name matrilinially so as to keep a "Russian" name to the family.  In all three cases above, the women in question did not have a father whose name has a Russian cognate.  Names like Louis (Ludwig), Charles (Karl) and Christian don't, as far as I know, have common Russian equivalents.  Perhaps the patronymics were chosen as typically Russian (Both Alexei and Alexander are fairly common Russian personal names).  That would be my speculation.  -- Jayron  32  01:42, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Russian patronymic were pretty universal amongst the Russian population at the time including the nobility. The foreign princesses were merely adopting the cultural trend of their new country. --The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 02:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * If Jayron32 is right, note also that all three had significant Alexanders/Alexeis in the families they were marrying into:
 * Marie's husband Alexander II of Russia and his grandmother, the current Empress Alexandra Feodorovna
 * Louise's husband Alexander I of Russia
 * Sophie - at the time of her marriage, Alexey Razumovsky was the (wed within the last couple of years) current husband of the current Empress
 * The Russian Wikipedia articles don't explain any of the name choices either. 174.88.9.124 (talk) 12:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)