Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 July 3

= July 3 =

James A. King
Does anybody know the exact date of birth for James A. King in the year 1832?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * His tombstone says Dec. 4, 1833 - October 16, 1899. --jpgordon:==( o ) 01:10, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * which makes me ask a real dumb question: are tombstones automatically WP:RS? --jpgordon:==( o ) 05:36, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * They're primary sources, so they're not generally RS at all. I'd say only use a tombstone as a source if there's no reliable printed secondary source. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Um... not so fast. Primary sources most certainly can be RS... However, a lot depends on how you word the specific statement you are supporting with the primary source.
 * For example, consider the statement: "James A. King's tombstone gives Dec. 4, 1833 as his date of death." For this statement, the tombstone itself is not only a reliable source... it's the single most reliable source possible.
 * Now consider another statement: "James A. King died on Dec. 4 1833." For this statement the actual tombstone is probably reliable, but since it is a primary source we should be cautious... it is not the most reliable source possible - because there exists at least the potential that it might have been mis-carved (unlikely, but it could happen).  We can use it in the absence of secondary reliable sources, but should defer to those other sources if they exist.
 * Finally, let us consider a third statement: "King died during the great epidemic of 1833." Here, his tombstone would not be reliable.  The tombstone says nothing about the epidemic. While there might well have been a "great epidemic of 1833", one that took place around the date listed on his tombstone ... to draw the two facts together involves making an original inference that is not justified by looking at just the tombstone.  For more on the proper (and improper) use of primary sources see our WP:No original research policy... and the essay WP:Identifying and using primary and secondary sources. Blueboar (talk) 12:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * In genealogical research I frequently find tombstones with birth and death dates which disagree with official birth and death certificates signed by the doctor. I tend to believe the official certificates in these cases. The tombstone carver writes whatever the person hiring him tells him to, and the person buying the tombstone may well be mistaken about the birthdate if it was long before the informant was born. People were not always well informed about their own birth dates, or they may have chosen to report a different date (such as vanity leading them to make themselves younger or even older than they really were). The death date would seem to be an obviously correct one, but even these are often off by a day from the death certificate, for unknown reasons. Sometimes a grave only has a temporary marker or no marker for many years until someone buys a tombstone, or the old frail marble slab might be vandalized and replaced by a new tombstone with the purchaser unsure of what dates were on the original. Edison (talk) 15:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Put another way, tombstones are primary (i.e., contemporary) documents regarding death dates, but secondary documents for birth dates. They are usually more accurate for the latter than the former. - Nunh-huh 04:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Israel Population Projections
In this article -- http://www.jpost.com/National-News/CBS-study-projects-114-million-Israelis-in-2035-317738 -- among a couple of other articles, it means that Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics recently created new population projections for Israel up to 2035. Does anyone know where the original population projections here are located? I checked the English version of the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics website, but I couldn't find them, and I don't speak or read Hebrew (anymore), so I was unable to thoroughly search the Hebrew version of this website for these projections. Also, are these projections only in Hebrew or is there an English version of them? As a side note, I might be able to add some of the information in these population projections to some Wikipedia articles. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 02:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "Projections of Israel Population until 2035" and "Population in base year 2010 and Projection for 2015 - 2035, by variant, population group and religion". ---Sluzzelin talk  02:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. I strongly appreciate it. Futurist110 (talk) 05:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Laprobe of a hack
What exactly is a "laprobe of a hack" mentioned here?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * In 1904, a hack might have meant a hackney carriage. Sleigh (talk) 09:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Which fits in nicely with the definition of a lap robe (not what you find on le spaceship alien) . Clarityfiend (talk) 10:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Age and intelligence
Age and intelligence is a redirect to intellectual giftedness, which seems completely wrong to me. I looked up that article because I wanted to know what research has been done on the correlation between age and intelligence. Any sourced information on this topic would be welcome, then I can figure out what to do about that redirect. --Viennese Waltz 11:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That redirect does not sound correct, especially if there's nothing about it in the target article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Uh yeah that's what I said. --Viennese Waltz 12:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I apologize for agreeing with you. I won't let it happen again. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Developmental psychology is the best match that I can see, although there doesn't seem to be much about the relationship between age and intelligence. Alansplodge (talk) 12:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What to do about the redirect is to gather some sources and edit the redirect to create a new article which does not duplicate the intellectual giftedness article, but covers the topic broadly. For example, if the article covered not just precocious children, but also the effect of senescence on intelligence as well as on normal intellectual development of children, along side "giftedness", you'd be on to something.  -- Jayron  32  13:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know, that's why I asked for sourced information on the topic – so that I could create the article. --Viennese Waltz 13:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This will get you started. -- Jayron  32  13:46, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Our intelligence quotient article contains relevant material, specifically the sections Early history and IQ and age. Note the the IQ measure was specifically designed to take age into account. Looie496 (talk) 14:48, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * There are 3 chapters, "Intelligence in Infancy", "Intelligence in Childhood", and "Intelligence in Adulthood" in Sternberg and Kaufman (eds.), The Handbook of Intelligence (Cambridge University Press, 2011). These have lots of authoritative information in themselves, but also contain bibliographies to the most important recent writings on the topics. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 16:25, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Changes in Cognitive Function in Human Aging (2007 textbook chapter)
 * The Lifespan Development of Individuals: Behavioral, Neurobiological, and... (book, see at least page 437)
 * The Effects of Aging on Intelligence (course notes, click on the two subpages as well)
 * Cognitive Function Can Start Failing At 45 Years Of Age (news article)
 * Aging and Cognitive Function (hospital info sheet)
 * What could account for our middle age peak in cognitive function: wiring? (blog post by a neuroscientist, see links in it)
 * and
 * Adult Age Differences in Multiple Cognitive Functions (academic paper)
 * Relationships among processing speed, working memory and fluid intelligence in children (academic paper)
 * Trajectory of High Cognitive Functioning Among the Oldest Old (academic abstract, confirms decline after 40)
 * Within-Cohort Age-Related Differences in Cognitive Functioning (academic abstract, of interest because "cohort effect" might be a fruitful line of research for you) 184.147.144.173 (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

All I conclude from this discussion is that the redirect of "Age and intelligence" should either (a) become it's own article or (b) redirect to the IQ & Age section of that other article. Regards.-- MarshalN20 | T al k 23:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Entry on "Emptiness"
note-14 under "Emptiness" refers to a United States psychologist, but searching her doesn't lead to any article or remarks which are quoted. Were they from an article or oral remarks made at one of her presentations? If so, please add more information to support the quotation. Can I contact the author of the page?Dalancer (talk) 16:45, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * A Google search indicates that "Awakening the Silent Soul: Treating Eating Disorders From the Inside Out" is the title of a workshop presentation that Jennifer Nardozzi has given in a number of places -- I see no indication that it has been published anywhere. As such, this probably ought not to be used as a source for our article. Looie496 (talk) 17:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * (ec) Interesting catch. Verifiability says sources have to be published - and as Looie496 says, this is an oral presentation . Reliable sources/Noticeboard could tell you what do to next. 184.147.144.173 (talk) 17:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Since no one had edited the article, I asked the Reliable Sources folks and they said delete the whole paragraph, which I have done. 184.147.144.173 (talk) 12:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Egypt Rallies
Have the recent rallies in Egypt been the largest groups of protestors ever?


 * Probably not. &mdash; Lomn 18:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Qur'an and Torah belt? and equivalent to Jesusland
In Muslim nations, do they have their own "Qur'an belt"? In Israel, does it have its own "Torah belt"? In Muslim nations and Israel, do they have a region equivalent to America's "Jesusland map"? --Donmust90 (talk) 19:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)Donmust90
 * I'm not sure what question you're asking. Can you rephrase the question, perhaps?  -- Jayron  32  19:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * He's asking for local equivalents to the American "Bible Belt". Israel is small, but there are some neighborhoods of Jerusalem, and some towns, which are heavily Orthodox.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * And there are more and less conservative areas in many Muslim countries. For example, in Egypt, it's often stated that Alexandria and the countryside are much more conservative than Cairo. The term "Koran Belt" (or other spellings) is not used, though. --Xuxl (talk) 09:43, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Female members of an American family I know living in Saudi Arabia in a compound for non-Muslims are severely limited in their lifestyle by the religious rules: They have to wear Muslim dress in public outside the compound. There are no movie theaters, they can't have a Christian church, but they can meet together at a "morality meeting" with no cross in evidence and sing some Christian songs. The girls cannot do a dance recital. This might be considered the "Koran Belt." If they drive (more accurately hire a male driver to take them) a short distance to Bahrain, then the girls could be confirmed in their Christian religion by a Bishop, they can watch movies,swim in a pool, buy DVDs, and attend a public Christian worship service. Bahrain would not be in the "Koran belt." Iraq was an example of a "non-Koran-Belt" country, at least before the US (and allies) invasion. Egypt was not much of a Koran belt country, with a tradition of secular government and Christians allowed to practice their religion freely. Afghanistan under the Taliban was extreme Koran Belt.  Edison (talk) 15:31, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Bondage and Sexual Thoughts
Not a joke question, I swear. I like bondage, in a sexual way, and I take a keen interest in metal bondage, such as handcuffs, leg shackles, cages and other things. Why? What causes humans to enjoy such things? What is the catalyst? '' I am sorry if this question is inappropriate. ''

--Kertial (talk) 21:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * My pet theory is that bondage is the release from internal sexual repression. Bind the limbs to free the mind.




 * But I have no personal experience in such matters. Hcobb (talk) 21:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The article Bondage (BDSM) contains some thoughts on this matter. Bielle (talk) 21:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I thought the idea was that you could have wild sex, but not feel guilty, because you were tied up and thus had no say in the matter. StuRat (talk) 08:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Reports of signs specially written in Chinese that relates to impolite behaviour of Chinese?
I used to heard report like this in Chinese says that there is once a notice sign that tells "Do not spit" in Chinese in the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and it was reportedly removed some years later. However, I seemed to find no google results or google image results. Is it verifiable? Are there any reports of similar events about Chinese signs in other countries' tourist attractions?--Bnfbgfgk (talk) 22:31, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not quite the same, but these signs are all over the place in China, especially since just before the Beijing Olympics, as the Chinese Government did not want all of the foreign spectators to see this kind of behaviour (which is extremely common - hence the need for the signs). Another one is 'Do not blow your nose" - referring to the Chinese habit of blowing it straight onto the pavement with one finger covering each nostril alternately.  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  23:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Though, my question is: are there such notices outside China that seemed to be dedicated to Chinese people and their behaviour? (e.g. multilingual notices and those in Chinatowns wouldn't be so plausible to mean "dedicated to Chinese...") Are there notices of this kind common in tourist attractions outside China(I have never seen one yet),or are those reports just made-up things or over-emphasizing of single events to make people aware?--Bnfbgfgk (talk) 01:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I knew that. That's why I said, 'Not quite the same, but...'  KägeTorä - (影虎)  ( TALK )  14:44, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Back in the day when I was an exchange student at Tsukuba University, the international office had signs on the trash bins telling people not to spit into them in several languages - Japanese, English, Korean and Chinese. The thing is, the Chinese sign used about three or four times as big a font as the others, which seemed to just have been tacked along for PC purposes. 192.51.44.21 (talk) 03:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Google found me this rather odd page, which I believe is Chinese, which says under the heading "How to develop good habits": South Korean public places, specially for Chinese posted "no spitting," Italy Leaning Tower of Pisa "don't spit" with the Chinese, the United States of America in the toilet use Chinese to write "flush after use"... Alansplodge (talk) 17:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't know if it is reliable since pictures seemed irrelevant and no additional proof. What I can find about the Pisa tower is just a reporter says he saw such signs, so it might be convincible.--Bnfbgfgk (talk) 18:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)