Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 July 9

= July 9 =

Bodhi tree at Mahabodhi Temple = Tree of Knowledge according to Enoch?
There's a curious anecdote from one of the "Book of Enoch" versions floating around. To be sure, the enveloping context is fantastic, and the details variously confused, yet...


 * And thence I went towards the east, into the midst of the mountain range of the desert, and I saw a wilderness and it was solitary, full of trees and plants. And water gushed forth from above. Rushing like a copious watercourse [which flowed] towards the north-west it caused clouds and dew to ascend on every side.
 * And thence I went to another place in the desert, and approached to the east of this mountain range. And there I saw aromatic trees exhaling the fragrance of frankincense and myrrh, and the trees also were similar to the almond tree.
 * And beyond these, I went afar to the east, and I saw another place, a valley (full) of water. And therein there was a tree, the colour (?) of fragrant trees such as the mastic. And on the sides of those valleys I saw fragrant cinnamon. And beyond these I proceeded to the east.
 * And I saw other mountains, and amongst them were groves of trees, and there flowed forth from them nectar, which is named sarara and galbanum. And beyond these mountains I saw another mountain to the east of the ends of the earth, whereon were aloe-trees, and all the trees were full of stacte, being like almond-trees. And when one burnt it, it smelt sweeter than any fragrant odour.
 * And after these fragrant odours, as I looked towards the north over the mountains I saw seven mountains full of choice nard and fragrant trees and cinnamon and pepper. And thence I went over the summits of all these mountains, far towards the east of the earth, and passed above the Erythraean sea and went far from it, and passed over the angel Zotiel. And I came to the Garden of Righteousness, and from afar off trees more numerous than I these trees and great-two trees there, very great, beautiful, and glorious, and magnificent, and the tree of knowledge, whose holy fruit they eat and know great wisdom.
 * That tree is in height like the fir, and its leaves are like (those of) the Carob tree: and its fruit is like the clusters of the vine, very beautiful: and the fragrance of the tree penetrates afar. Then I said: 'How beautiful is the tree, and how attractive is its look!' Then Raphael the holy angel, who was with me, answered me and said:
 * 'This is the tree of wisdom, of which thy father old (in years) and thy aged mother, who were before thee, have eaten, and they learnt wisdom and their eyes were opened, and they knew that they were naked and they were driven out of the garden.'
 * And from thence I went to the ends of the earth and saw there great beasts, and each differed from the other; and (I saw) birds also differing in appearance and beauty and voice, the one differing from the other...

Now to be clear, most of the spices described are known from commerce in Palestine and Syria - then again, the author clearly is using familiar names sometimes in reference to unfamiliar plants. What I find intriguing is that the voyage described passes north of the Erythraean Sea, which is to say, the Indian Ocean near Iran; then further east away from it along a valley of water, which seems plausibly the Ganges. That seems to describe a physical voyage that could plausibly have come near to Mahabodhi Temple. Given the nature of that site, its connection of the tree with enlightenment, it seems irresistible for an ancient writer in the Jewish traditions to have seen an equivalence with the story of Eden. I wonder though if the relationship could be deeper, if there was more communication and more of an underlying relationship between the sites and their traditions, and thus between Abrahamic traditions and Buddhism, than is commonly believed? Has this potential equivalence been explored or dismissed by historians? Wnt (talk) 05:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I really doubt that any historians have ever explored that identification. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 05:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The oldest part of the Book of Enoch dates to 300BC. Prior to that are the boreal World Tree, the polar axis attributed to the Germanic and Uralic and other peoples, and the Tree of Life and the Apples of the Hesperides found in the near east. The tree of the Bodhi Tree tradition is probably a borrowing from thos traditions, equi-and pre-dating Eve and so-forth. μηδείς (talk) 06:18, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, according to the other article Buddha dates back even further. I would have expected historians to consider it because, well, if you go north of the Indian Ocean you're most of the way through Iran, and after that, where do you go?  There aren't all that many options - the author, or at least the singer of this particular segment of traveller's tale, didn't go into Nepal or he wouldn't have found the Iranian mountains impressive.  Also note the description of the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge as being like grapes - from something like  the Sacred Fig seems believable.  I'm not so sure about the leaves like the Carob tree - you can compare the articles and see what you think - obviously the little tail is missing, but I'm not sure if there was anything more similar that could have been used.  So, I mean, it seems like somebody must have at least asked the question in all this time, shouldn't they?  I can't be the first person in two millennia to read this section and take it at face value. Wnt (talk) 06:25, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * THe Bodhi tree dates back to 750BC. Not before the Germanics or the World Tree or Tree of Life. The earlier concepts are world-astronomical, not self-ethical. μηδείς (talk) 06:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You are not the first person to note this; unfortunately, for subjects like this, the books that deal with it tend to be unreliably esoteric and not scholarly academic treatments. (Another example, the link between Abraham and Brahmins...) I suspect it has something to do with the tendency to treat Judaism (and by extension Christianity) as a hermetically sealed religion that had no outside influences, miraculously appearing out of nowhere. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Mrs. Tom Foley
Can someone help me find an image of Tom Foley with his wife, or just a photo of Mrs. Foley? I found this page with a wedding photo, but I'm looking for something from the 1990s, when Foley was Speaker of the House. 2001:18E8:2:1020:B9AC:BD21:3CDF:DE4E (talk) 14:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Google images is your friend. Try "Tom Foley with wife" next time. Her name is Leslie Fahrenkopf. http://blogs.courant.com/capitol_watch/2010/05/tom-foley-wins-gop-endorsement.html 196.214.78.114 (talk) 14:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * In fact just Google Images her name. 196.214.78.114 (talk) 14:30, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the problem — you got images of Thomas C. Foley, a Republican, while Tom Foley was a Democratic leader. I got the same thing when I tried a basic Google Images search; Mrs. Speaker Foley is/was Heather.  2001:18E8:2:1020:B9AC:BD21:3CDF:DE4E (talk) 15:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's a so-so photo of Heather Strachan all by her lonesome. No idea when it was taken. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)