Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 13

= June 13 =

Translations of the Roman missal
Is there a sort of list of languages that the Roman missal has been officially translated to? It seems like Liturgiam authenticam (no. 15) says only some languages should be chosen for that. 88.68.4.26 (talk) 01:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't say that only it may only be translated into certain languages. Rather, it says that translations from the Latin to the vernacular must be, as close to possible, a formal equivalence; that is to say words are translated word-for-word, and not as idiom.  It doesn't proscribe or prescribe any specific languages; hypothetically any language could be so used; just that the translation should be as close to word-for-word as possible.  -- Jayron  32  01:40, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, but no. 15 says "[i]t will be the responsibility of the Conference of Bishops to determine which of the prevailing languages are to be introduced into full or partial liturgical use in its territory. [...]" So is there a list of languages introduced into use? --88.68.4.26 (talk) 17:25, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Edgar Allan Poe mystery
Hello everyone. A real-life friend of mine has a copy of Edgar Allan Poe's Tales of Mystery and Imagination published by John C. Winston. However, there's no date of publication listed, and both my friend and I can't find any listing of the specific edition online (including Worldcat.org). Any thoughts? Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 01:03, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The name of the publisher is one parameter. Also look for the printing ("Third printing", for example), and the city in which it was published (although the publisher probably only published that work in one city).  These would likely be enough for a good used book detective to track it down.  You can try internet searches, but that info might not be online.  If the publisher still exists (after merging with others, perhaps), you might contact them to track it down.  And if no records can be found, they could always resort to approximate dating based on the type of binding, paper, ink, typeface, etc., along with signs of aging like yellowing of the pages.  Any antique bookseller might give you an estimate of the decade pretty quickly. StuRat (talk) 04:58, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help! I'll pass this on. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:33, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It may not make any difference, but he spelt his middle name Allan. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  05:27, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, that was a silly typo of mine here. I've changed it above. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:33, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not the only typo. It's &, not "and". (This can really screw with WorldCat entries) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:52, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be Tales of Mystery & Imagination, not the debut album by the Alan Parsons Project linked above. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  08:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC) (I have since redirected the link, in case later readers are wondering why my previous statement appears to be misleading.  --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  21:24, 14 June 2013 (UTC))
 * Exactly. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Gee, I never noticed that. I should check my links when I post something. Thanks to you both! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:29, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Though not the specific book you're inquiring about, here and here are two Poe-related volumes that were published by John C. Winston. It would appear that the publisher was located in Philadelphia in the 1880s and in Chicago in the 1920s, if that's any help. It was absorbed by Henry Holt & Co. in 1960. Deor (talk) 10:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:29, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

The man with the flying horse
Does anyone know of a Saint Barnon who had a flying horse? I checked Google and all I got was this and Saint Baron. Given that he had a flying horse I think that rather than a Christian type saint he may be from some other mythology. For a bit of background see Talk:Sedna (mythology). CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 02:47, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Both Bellerophon and Perseus are associated with flying horses from Greek Mythology. Perhaps there's some religious syncretism going on here?  -- Jayron  32  02:52, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * That section you linked to on talk:Sedna (mythology) looks like complete garbage to me. It mixes Celtic mythology with references to China, Denmark, Burma and India.  Rojomoke (talk) 03:53, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You forgot Russia and Poland. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 07:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The paragraph mentioning the "flying horse" in that talk-page post seems to contain a somewhat confused version of the downfall of the city of Ys. In the usual versions, it is King Gradlon who drops Dahut from his horse Morvac'h at the command of Saint Winwaloe (Guénolé). Morvac'h is not a flying horse but one that is able to magically travel upon or through the sea. Deor (talk) 09:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah. Thanks then, it appears that they have mixed a buch of mythologies together and none of it has any real application to Sedna. I was curious if there was some Welsh myth similar to her or one of the other Inuit figures. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 20:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

About World War I
Following is a line from my history textbook:

"The war led to the snapping of economic links between some of the world's largest economic powers which were now fighting each other to pay for them."

I don't understand the last part: to pay for them. The rest of the sentence makes sense but what does this mean? To pay for what? --Yashowardhani (talk) 06:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Doesn't really make a lot of sense does it? You can read the whole thing at The Making of a Global World (it took a while for the whole page to load on my rather elderly PC). Alansplodge (talk) 07:22, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it may be referring to the paragraph before it about the production of war-related goods. Either way, it is still a weird sentence.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:04, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I would say to pay for the loss of productivity or benefits that the economic links provided.165.212.189.187 (talk) 15:39, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This explanation makes the most sense. However, it's a badly written sentence.-- MarshalN20 | T al k 22:12, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Obituary
Can anybody find an obituary or news article describing the deaths or funerals of King Kamehameha IV or Kamehameha V?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:45, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * For the funeral of Kamehameha IV, see Lyttelton Times, Rōrahi XXI, Putanga 1239, 21 Haratua 1864, Page 5 (scroll down past halfway). Alansplodge (talk) 12:52, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * For Kamehameha V, there's a very brief description in House Documents, Otherwise Publ as Executive Documents 13th Congress, 2d Session 49th Congress 1st Session, page 506 (scroll to bottom of page). For a brief report on the death, scroll up to page 489. The google books search hinted at a "Masonic funeral", but I was not able to view any of those results. 184.147.118.213 (talk) 13:37, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Something about the Masonic funeral is at Alexander Cartwright: The Life Behind the Baseball Legend, by Monica Nucciarone (p.94) (if Google Books is willing to show it to you - it worked for me). Alansplodge (talk) 17:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And the running order of the funeral procession is at Hawaiian National Bibliography, Vol 3: 1851-1880 edited by David W. Forbes (p.534). Alansplodge (talk) 17:29, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Finally, an account of his Lying-in-State at New York Tribune - January 15, 1873 (at the foot of the second column). Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry about this. Thank you for your hard work. I was also able to find a lot of things in the Library of Congress.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:13, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

What's the difference between a marine biologist and an oceanographer?
And someone who studies one of the things, can then study a master or post-graduate title on the other career? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IchbinKiribatisch (talk • contribs) 10:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Oceanography is a "subsection" of geography - biology is only peripherally involved. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:28, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * This is an encyclopedia. Please see our articles on oceanographer and marine biologist.--Shantavira|feed me 11:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * What help does "This is an encyclopedia" give?203.112.82.2 (talk) 20:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is possible. Both sciences are related, but Roger's point clearly presents the major distinction between them. Based on my experience in academic advising, perhaps something along the lines of majoring in oceanography and a minor in biology (or marine biology, to be more precise) would work. Matters also depend on the graduate program to which you apply (each is different, with specific preferences), the researchers involved, and (obviously) what you plan to contribute to the field. Hope this helps. Best regards.-- MarshalN20 | T al k 22:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Medieval christian iconography, hand gesture
Why is it that in medieval christian iconography there would be a man who holds a hand up, forefinger and middle finger tilted upwards while the ring finger, little finger, and thumb touch? Sneazy (talk) 13:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I found the answer to my own question here. Sneazy (talk) 13:45, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * See also Schwurhand. Alansplodge (talk) 17:06, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, the Depiction of Jesus article has (in the first image) this hand sign (sort-of).-- MarshalN20 | T al k 22:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not Catholic so I may be completely off base, but doesn't the pope (and probably other priests?) use the same hand position when making the sign of the cross? This is just what I see on tv. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:45, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe it's the hand gesture used during a Benediction. Our article says; "...the hand is held so that the fingers form the initials IC XC (the abbreviation for "Jesus Christ" in Greek), and he traces the Sign of the Cross in the air with his hand." I'm not sure that I follow that entirely, but it's confirmed by Icons And Saints of the Eastern Orthodox Church, by Alfredo Tradigo (p.244). Alansplodge (talk) 12:16, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * See also de:Segensgestus. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 01:32, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * So priests be flashin' gang signs? μηδείς (talk) 02:29, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Just like the Masons. HiLo48 (talk) 02:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that I'm entirely comfortable with the analogy, but it's not an original thought; see Why does Jesus be always throwing up gang signs? and Welcome to The Jesus Gang. Alansplodge (talk) 19:12, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

First Congress district maps
I've sought but failed to find a map showing the boundaries for all of the congressional districts for the 1st United States Congress. I've not even found anything showing the districts for each state, which wouldn't be as convenient but would still work. United States House of Representatives elections, 1789 says that some states, like Pennsylvania, were at-large, but some had districts like today. 2001:18E8:2:1020:15D3:F8CD:785:A6C8 (talk) 20:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * My question is "can you show me such a map?" 2001:18E8:2:1020:15D3:F8CD:785:A6C8 (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * See if you can find in a handy library: Kenneth C. Martis (author and editor), Ruth Anderson Rowles (cartographer and assistant editor), "The historical atlas of United States congressional districts 1789-1983". New York: Free Press, c1982. ISBN 0029201500. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * [Same person, different location] Thank you! It sounds useful, but I've never heard of it before.  It's in my university library catalogue, so I'll easily be able to find it.  23.25.5.57 (talk) 21:55, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

DOMA, the flip side
I was reading Windsor's brief to SCOTUS (Marriage cases) concerning DOMA. It raised a curious legal tangent that I cannot figure out.

Ordinarily when the constitutionality of a law is challenged, the plaintiff is a person who is bound by a law they perceive as incorrect and oppressive, and they wish to challenge its validity. if they fail they remain bound, if they succeed they can claim compensation or remedies and can act more freely in future. It's also usually a point of law that if a matter is legal, then the law isn't retrospective. But when a law is deemed unconstitutional, it is effectively "unwound", to an extent, its fundamental validity is affected.

So the brief raises a curious twist on this point. DOMA prohibits the recognition of certain matters in any Federal law - specifically in this case, any same-sex marriage. Where Federal laws exist that a person's "spouse" may not perform certain actions, those laws are not binding on the "spouse" under DOMA. Effectively for such people, the law acts not as a prohibiting law, but a protective one - it carves out a niche where certain actions that would categorically be illegal, are not illegal if undertaken by members of a certain class of persons.

(The brief gives as an example of such a law, that "House Rules require a Member to prohibit 'lobbying contact' between the Member’s 'spouse' and the Member’s staff".)

So what happens if a law, having the effect of protecting from legal challenge certain actions of a class of persons and placing their actions within the law (a protective rather than prohibitive law in its operation), is subsequently deemed after some years to have been unconstitutional? Does that mean that all persons who were previously protected are deemed to have thereby acted illegally? Is the Judicial and Law Enforcement sector of government or any private person suddenly in the position of a plaintiff who would have entered legal action but was unlawfully prevented from doing so, and now the law accepts they have standing and right?

What's the legal consequences of a protective law being deemed unconstitutional? FT2 (Talk 23:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)


 * While Wikipedia cannot give legal advice, I would imagine the concept of ex post facto would be applied in such situations. Even though the situation is not strictly passage of an ex post facto law, the general principle is that you shouldn't be punished for something that wasn't illegal when you did it, though there are a lot of exceptions for things which are deemed "regulatory" or "compensatory" rather than "punishment". It'd probably depend highly on what the consequences of the removal of protection are. -- 205.175.124.30 (talk) 00:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * What you seem to be describing is the Congress saying federal laws would confer no jurisdiction in such matters. The legislature is allowed to delimit the jurisdiction of Federal courts according to the constitution.  See the poorly named article jurisdiction stripping.  Presumably this would come up if the resident of one state sued a resident of another state for deprival of affection, (although I am speculating violently there).  In any case, laws do not only forbid things.  They regulate and establish administrative law and regulate civil claims.  Calling what you do above "protective" law wouldn't mean gay spouses could get away with actual crimes like murder (which are almost entirely a matter of state law).  Indeed, it's hard to imagine what, other than intrastate divorce and estate cases, would be affected by DOMA.  The only 'protecting' there would be a rich partner could move to a state without gay marriage recognition, and thus not be suable for alimony in the new state or in federal court.  That sort of thing is not limited to gay marriage. μηδείς (talk) 00:45, 14 June 2013 (UTC)