Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 15

= June 15 =

When were birth records/certificates introduced in Romania?
Asking some locals I found that identity documents were made mandatory in Romania during the German occupation of 1916. But were birth records kept with any regularity before, say around 1900? 86.121.18.17 (talk) 00:27, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

I was able to find out that at least in one case (that of Petre Țuțea) there were birth certificates being issued in Romania in 1902. But how widespread was the practice? 86.121.18.17 (talk) 00:41, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

According to they were introduced around 1806-1812 during the Russian occupation, and they followed the Russian model of keeping them with church records, but the practice was not very uniform. I still wasn't able to find out when the state took over. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 00:51, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

According to a 2008 paper by Romanian National Archives, an effort by the state to centralize the records happened around 1926-1932 but in some cases as late as 1948-1952 (pp. 55-56), although they mention that a good number of the early records were lost in this process, sometimes literally by the truckload. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 01:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

And finally, according to, p. 240, the "Communal Law" (Legea comunală) of 31 March 1864 the records became the responsibility of the mayor in each dwelling, who was allowed to delegate it to one of his helpers. The source doesn't say how fast the law was put into practice though. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 01:15, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Arab parties participating in coalition gov't Israel
When was the last time that an Israeli coalition gov't that included Arab parties like Balad, Ra'am-Ta'al and Hadash?--Donmust90 (talk) 03:37, 15 June 2013 (UTC)Donmust90
 * Category:Cabinets of Israel should get you started on your research. -- Jayron  32  03:47, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The simple answer is: Never. No Arab party has ever been invited to join an Israeli cabinet. The Arab parties (including Hadash, which had Jewish members as well) are political pariah in Israel. Opinion polls often clump these parties together in one column (as "Arab parties"), since they don't count for government-formations anyways. --Soman (talk) 16:42, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The separate Arab political parties tended to be Moscow-subservient Communist through the 1970s, and Arab nationalist afterwards, but there have been Arab MKs in the Knesset voting for the government on a number of occasions (as I'm sure you must be very well aware), and Arabs in the Israeli cabinet off and on since 1971... AnonMoos (talk) 21:57, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Look, it's quite different to say that there has been Arab individuals as cabinet ministers than to say that Arab parties have been represented in cabinets. You know as well as I that it would be politically unthinkable for any mainstream Israeli politician to consider even discussing including Balad and Hadash in a cabinet. The fact that there have been handpicked individuals promoted (usually Druze, more seldom Christians and Muslims) doesn't really change the fact that the Arab minority is systematically sidelined from achieving proportional political influence in the State of Israel (count how many Arab ministers there have been, and check if it coincides with their demographic size, of around 20%...). It's a bit like the issue of the Jewish parliamentarians in Syria and Iran.
 * There was an experience in the first elections to the Knesset with Arab lists promoted by Labour and Mapam, but these lists had a very different dynamic than the current Arab parties in Israel. --Soman (talk) 04:38, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

dystopian fiction trilogy
In china ,nowadays,some people call ,We (1921) by Yevgeny Zamyatin,Brave New World (1931) by Aldous Huxley ,Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949) by George Orwell,dystopian fiction trilogy.I don't kowm the etymology of dystopian fiction trilogy,that is, who create this word firstly?Maybe just a chinese anonymous researcher create it originally? Please give me a answer and thank you very very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.244.12.60 (talk) 09:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * See Dystopia, Dystopian fiction, and trilogy. The three books you mention aren't a real trilogy - they're by different authors and there's no connection between their plots or subject matter, other than them all being dystopian novels - and "Brave New World" isn't really _dystopian_, in comparison with (say) The Machine Stops (1909) or Farenheit 451 (1951).  Tevildo (talk) 11:01, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * "Trifecta" would probably be the better English word. It generally refers to three major accomplishments in a field, so if you're into dystopian fiction, reading these three major books could be seen as an accomplishment. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:29, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No, the English-speaking world doesn't refer to these as a trilogy. In fact, while many scholars would count Brave New World and Nineteen Eighty-Four in a modern Western canon, We is relatively obscure, at least in the United States. It's very unusual for an American to graduate high school without reading at least one of the former two, but We is definitely not a regular in school curricula (quite possibly because it's still not unusual for Americans to regard all things Russian with suspicion). It does sound like this categorization may have been thought of by a Chinese researcher, though I have to say, as a representation of well-regarded dystopian literature, he or she has at least made good selections. --BDD (talk) 03:11, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I first learned of We and was motivated to read it when I saw it mentioned along with Nineteen Eighty-Four and Brave New World, together described as "the three great dystopian novels." I no longer recall if I ran across that phrase in a newspaper book review or in the introduction to some other novel, but whichever the source, it was in the United States.  We is certainly the most obscure of the three (at least in the Americas), and I seldom meet people who have read it. -- 189.119.244.51 (talk) 21:21, 16 June 2013 (UTC)	 And thanks to Tevildo, I will now track down and read The Machine Stops.


 * "The Machine Stops" is out of copyright in some parts of the world, and is one of my long-time favorites; it kind of predicts the Internet in an interesting way for something that was first published in 1909... AnonMoos (talk) 20:34, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The American South

 * What is it like to live in the South? How does the climate affect people with Seasonal Affective Disorder? Is global warming a deep concern in the Southern coastal states?
 * Is the South still the "Bible Belt" of the United States? How do Southerners react typically to the term?
 * Does the South still have "Southern hospitality"? How is this hospitality different from the hospitality of other regions? What makes it so special? Is this really a stereotype, or does it really exist today? How do Southerners react typically to the term? Is the "Southern belle" part of the "Southern hospitality" concept? Do they still exist, or are they part of a bygone era - the 19th century? Sneazy (talk) 17:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * This question seems to be asking for opinions, except maybe for the SAD or the effect of global warming, which are more appropriate for the Sci. RD. OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:27, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not think that the questions about SAD and global warming belong in the science reference desk. Those are more or less social issues/concerns. Science deals with science-y stuff like how global warming works or how SAD develops or is diagnosed. Sneazy (talk) 17:47, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * For an accurate depiction of the current day South, nothing beats watching True Blood. μηδείς (talk) 17:40, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I corrected your link. How is True Blood related to the South? I think I sense sarcasm. Sneazy (talk) 17:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Once you have watched a few episodes, if you have any questions we can entertain them. μηδείς (talk) 18:47, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe that SAD is likely to be more of a problem where the winter days are very short, in more northerly latitudes. "Light therapy has been shown to be effective in up to 85 per cent of diagnosed cases." In New Orleans, the shortest period of winter daylight is 10 hr 13 mins and the longest in summer is 14 hrs 04 mins, so not a great deal of variation. In Anchorage, Alaska, the shortest day is 5 hr 27 mins.  Alansplodge (talk) 19:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * On the bright side, Anchorage folks are having their longest day today. 19 and a half hours of sun, cheerfully starting at 4:20. Looking good so far! InedibleHulk (talk) 17:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It's like living in the North but hotter and twangier. And the barbecue is much better.  -- Jayron  32  02:03, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


 * /tvɔnʒi'e/? μηδείς (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

As I suspected, even this month's Season 6 premier of True Blood mentions Southern Hospitality. μηδείς (talk) 00:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Albert Pierce Taylor
Can someone help me find the written source where this blog entry is taken from? It says it's by A. P. Taylor, Honolulu, Hawaii Territory, Sunday, June 12, 1910; it can either be a chapter of a book or a newspaper article. Albert Pierce Taylor wrote Under Hawaiian Skies.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:06, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry if this is too obvious, bt have you tried contacting Charles ano, who uploaded the article to the blog? There's a link to his details at the bottom.  Rojomoke (talk) 21:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * That never works (emailing people) for me and I don't think he'll remember something from two years ago. A few of the sentences can be found in Under Hawaiian Skies but a majority of can't be found there making me think it was another article/chapter of another book written by Taylor maybe even an article in the Honolulu Advertiser from 1910. Anyone else?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:24, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Anybody?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 11:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Official US response to Soyuz 11
Presumably, the White House issued a suitably-worded message of condolence and support following the Soyuz 11 accident. Is the text of this message available anywhere? I'd be interested to see how Nixon or his advisers struck the balance between human sympathy and the prosecution of the Cold War. Tevildo (talk) 21:14, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You can actually hear Nixon and Kissinger expressing their condolences to Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin on a recording from the Nixon tapes (scroll down and it's the second MP3 file down, reference 006-040). It's quite heartfelt, personal and sincere.  They mention that an official message will also be sent, but this is the President's personal reaction. -  Ka renjc 22:36, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Nixon said
 * "The American people join in expressing to you and the Soviet people our deepest sympathy on the tragic deaths of the three Soviet cosmonauts. The whole world followed the exploits of these courageous explorers of the unknown and shares the anguish of their tragedy. But the achievements of cosmonauts Dobrovolsky, Volkov and Patsayev remain. It will, I am sure, prove to have contributed greatly to the further achievements of the Soviet program for the exploration of space and thus to the widening of man's horizons."
 * which seems to me to have no evident tang (sic) of the cold war. He also sent Thomas P. Stafford to the funeral as his official representative, where he was a pallbearer for Georgy Dobrovolsky's urn (Stafford had been in Belgrade at the time of the accident, so he was the easiest person to send). A few years earlier, when Vladimir Komarov died in 1967, NASA had wanted to send Al Shepard and Frank Borman, but the Soviets declined to allow that. (ref: Salyut - The First Space Station: Triumph and Tragedy, Grujica S. Ivanovich) -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 22:38, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for the information, particularly the tape, which I agree does give an insight into Nixon's personal reaction. Not many modern politicians would admit on the record to still being in bed at 0730. The current NASA link on our article seems to be broken, and I think Finlay's link is the appropriate substitution. Tevildo (talk) 23:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it's worth noting that at the time of the Soyuz 11 accident, early preparations (technical and political) for what was to become the Apollo–Soyuz Test Project were already underway. Nixon and Brezhnev both felt that space was a venue where real progress on cooperation could be made, so Nixon had an existing engagement with the subject. And I can't but wonder if it's a coincidence that, when four years later Alexei Leonov (another of Dobrovolsky's pallbearers) opened the hatch of Soyuz 19, the astronaut NASA had chosen to greet him was Stafford. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 23:52, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

What was the most used tech on medieval era?
Lets imagine someone was to make a steampunk but using medieval era and the steam equivalent of the era. What this tech would be?201.78.181.119 (talk) 22:53, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Watermills? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:56, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Frances and Joseph Gies wrote a book called Cathedral, Forge, and Waterwheel: Technology and Invention in the Middle Ages -- that title summarizes the most important technological achievements. Looie496 (talk) 23:41, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * (ec) Mill-punk would be a good one, especially as watermills/windmills weren't just used for grinding grain, but also for pumping water (e.g. the Netherlands), as well as for cutting wood (why do you think we call them "sawmills"?), and for working iron (e.g. trip hammers). The industrial revolution started in the watermill-powered textile factories of England, but didn't really take off until you got a power source that wasn't tied to being right on a river. Another option if you want to go back a bit further would be Ox-punk. Donkey mills were the alternative to water/windmills, and transportation in large part was with ox or horse drawn carts or barges. I've read that the improvements in yoke technology (specifically the horse collar and the heavy plough) were essential for the population growth in the middle ages. You also had other animals like turnspit dogs providing power in the household. - We also have an article Medieval technology if you'd like additional inspiration. -- 71.35.105.42 (talk) 23:58, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Without question, waterpower was used, creatively and efficiently, but it can't be described as the "most used" technology of the medieval era. The most used would have been either a rather low-octane horsepower or the very mundane power of elbow grease. --Dweller (talk) 23:52, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * For a real "steampunk" feel I can't resist quoting this medieval poem, called A Complaint Against the Blacksmith:

Swart smutted smiths, smattered with smoke, Drive me to death with din of their dints; Such noise on nights ne heard men never. What with knaven cry and clattering of knocks! The crooked caitiffs cryen after coal! coal! And bloweth their bellows till their brain bursteth. Huf! puf! says the one; haf! paf! says the other; They spitten and they sprawlen and they spellen many spells. They gnawen and gnashen and they groan all together, And holden them hot with their hard hammers. Of a bull-hide be their barm-fells; Their shanks be shackled for the fiery flinders; Heavy hammers they have that are hard to be handled, Stark strokes they striken on a steely stock, Lus! bus! las! das! snore they by the row, Such doleful a dream that the devil it to-drive! The master loungeth a little and catcheth a less, Twineth them twain and toucheth a treble, Tik! tak! hic! hac!, tiket! taket! tyk! tyk! Lus! bus! las! das!... Christ give them sorrow! May no man for brenn waters on night have his rest?


 * Looie496 (talk) 00:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * For anybody else curious as to where this poem is from, it is apparently anonymous, and to be found in no 262 of the Arundel Manuscripts in the British Museum, according to footnote 16 of this paper. Thanks for introducing it to me, Looie. --ColinFine (talk) 09:56, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I like it too. --   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:37, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Given that Steampunk, as a genre, is derivative of the informational and societal interest of Cyberpunk as a science fiction genre, the easiest way forward is to identify an informational and societal science fiction work dealing with the middle ages. Aha! Umberto Eco's In the Name of the Rose. Enjoy your Monkpunk. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:47, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Another book that's worth your attention is Jean Gimpel's The Medieval Machine (listed among the references in the medieval-technology article that 71.35.105.42 referred you to). Deor (talk) 09:23, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The OP might find the works of K. J. Parker to be of some interest, in particular his The Engineer trilogy. Although nominally fantasy and set in a world not, and with no connection to, our own, this convincingly depicts the use of technology in a quasi-mediaeval setting. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:40, 17 June 2013 (UTC)