Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 June 28

= June 28 =

Guido Reni, Beatrice
Can I get a painting carbon dated to be accurate within a few years? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.120.150.83 (talk) 00:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This company claims that carbon-14 dating of "canvas, wood and paper" is accurate to plus or minus 40 years. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:00, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The date of the panel or canvas is not necessarily the same as that of the painting on it (see Flower portrait) - and I should add that there are many copies of the Beatrice Cenci. Paul B (talk) 17:58, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Looking for a word like overcapitalisation
Hi all, suppose you own a company, and you sell a 50% stake to 4 different people (obviously without telling them what you've done). Then you run off with the money to the Bahamas, or something like that. Now you've sold 200% of the company, so the company is sort of "oversold". Is there a word for this? I was thinking it was "overcapitalisation", but that means something else, not dissimilar, but not the same. IBE (talk) 02:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I would call it the Producers gambit -- the word used in that article is "overselling"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:30, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Fraud works too. -- Jayron  32  02:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I think "overselling" might be a bit misleading because it usually means something else. I did a bit of googling and I couldn't find a specific term that refers to what you describe - it's possible that such a term is not in common use. But, as Jaron says, this is definitely a type of securities fraud. StewieCartman (talk) 11:21, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a very rare kind of fraud, because most companies sell shares rather than outright percentages. However, partnerships are often structured to provide percentage ownerships, and a limited liability company can also be given that structure.  It's also possible, of course, to sell shares but misrepresent the total number of shares outstanding.
 * If the fraud is consummated by conveying percentage interests in, let's say, a partnership, this is probably not even securities fraud, because the interests conveyed are probably not securities. It's just fraud.
 * If the fraudster instead conveys shares of some kind (common stock or whatever), then it is securities fraud, based on the material misrepresentation concerning the company's capitalization. I don't think there's a special name for misrepresentations concerning capitalization.  However, this kind of fraud is closely related to (though distinct from) selling watered stock, which is the sale of par value stock for an amount in excess of its value.  For various reasons, most common stock today is no-par or has a low par value and, according to our article, the last major American court case dealing with watered stock was in 1956.  John M Baker (talk) 16:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * As Jayron said, this is a very basic type of fraud -- the fraud of selling something that you don't own. Once you have sold a stake in the company, you no longer own it, so you can't sell it. Looie496 (talk) 16:14, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It would depend a lot on the jurisdiction. Over here (NL), the most common type of company to have shares it the 'BV', and any sale of shares requires involvement of a notary. He would spot and block this type of scam. Unilynx (talk) 19:47, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * (to be specific, shares in a BV require involvement of a notary. shares in a NV don't, but that structure has its own requirements for dealing with shares, which might still block this type of scam) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unilynx (talk • contribs) 19:49, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Were Austro-Hungarian officers not allowed to marry commoners?
Prince Leopold Clement of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha would have lost his officer's commission if he had married his lover, a Viennese commoner. Why? See also Talk:Prince Leopold Clement of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Surtsicna (talk) 15:50, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * More likely that princes who don't play by the rules (by marrying into royalty) are disgraced and therefore not fit to hold a commission. Damned if I can find a source though. Might need a German speaker to find one. Alansplodge (talk) 07:13, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Shakespearean English to modern English translation
I have very limited exposure to the works of Shakespeare. Therefore, I must admit that I find reading it a daunting task since I don't know what some of the older terms mean. I have cut-and-paste one section from his King Lear that I'm not sure of. Those wishing to help should focus on the areas in bold.


 * This is the foul fiend Flibbertigibbet. He begins at curfew,
 * and walks till the first cock. '''He gives the web and the pin,
 * squints the eye, and makes the harelip; mildews the white wheat,
 * and hurts the poor creature of earth.
 * Saint Withold footed thrice the 'old;
 * He met the nightmare, and her nine fold;
 * Bid her alight
 * And her troth plight,
 * And aroint thee, witch, aroint thee!

Thank you. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:58, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I looked around, and it appears that "web and pin" may refer to diseases of the eye and joints. Please correct me (or elaborate) if I am incorrect. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:07, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I think "the web and the pin" may both be diseases of the eye - Flibbertigibbet is spreading them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

"Aroint!" means "be gone!! . AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:10, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

"her troth plight" means "to pledge or betroth" - as in marriage? . AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

"bid her alight" is simple - "tell her to get off" AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:14, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * He gives the web and the pin, squints the eye, and makes the harelip = he's responsible for various physical deformities and ailments.
 * Saint Withold footed thrice the 'old;. St Withold may be St Vitalis or Swithold, a variation on St Swithin. 'old is "wold", i.e. the downs, or open land.
 * Bid her alight..." She is the "nighmare", who was though of as a spirit who rode a horse through the night to sit on the chest of sleeping people (as later depicted in the Fuseli painting). She had to get off her horse and and submit to the saint.
 * aroint thee... = "begone", referring to the night-mare. Paul B (talk) 16:15, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It's part of the wider imagery of Tom of Bedlam at the time, and is related to the teadition of "mad songs" that circulated in the period. Paul B (talk) 16:19, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

There's a translation of the passage - in fact, the whole play - here, though I note no translation is given for 'web and pin' - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:16, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Their translation makes it appear as if the devil and the nightmare are two separate entities. Why would the poem shift focus like that? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:21, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * That's a part of the tradition of the "mad song", a kind of Jacobean surrealism. You find it in Basse's Tom a Bedlam too, though his imagery is rather more sedate than Shakespeare's - less convincingly crazy. The poems often suddenly jump in a stream-of-consciousness way from one idea to another, and often shift meter and rhyme-scemes arbitrarily. All this has been linked to apocalyptic prophesy common at the time: the crazy-guy on the street shouting semi-garbled religious imagery and saying that the end is nigh. Paul B (talk) 20:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

A nightmare has nothing to de with horses - it is a demon or similar met in a dream. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:18, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I know that the mare of nightmare is confused with the mare of horse. That is why I didn't put in in bold. Thanks for the help, Andy. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:21, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The word "mare" does not mean "female horse", no. It's an archaic word for a spirit (night-spirit), but the idea that she rides with her entourage is one variant of the mythology, though I don't know whether that derived from a confusion with "mare" for horse (a horse appears in the Fuseli painting The Nightmare) She wouldn't need to "alight" if she weren't riding, though there was an archaic usage meaning "appear", which is possible. Paul B (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I know all about the incubus spirit/goblin associated with the Germanic term mare. That is why I didn't put it in bold. The entry on mare in this folklore etymology discusses the many references to the confusion between mare (the sprit) and mare (horse). This video about the painting also mentions it. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Web and pin do appear to be eye diseases, or rather, an eye disease. They are also mentioned in The Winter's Tale: "all eyes blind With the pin and web, but theirs". According to Shakespeare's chum John Florio, it's cataracts: "Cataratta is a dimnesse of sight occasioned by humores hardened in the eies, called a cataract or a pin and a web." Paul B (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the input, Paul. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:30, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I found this article from the New York Review of Books which says of the same passage; "It is seventeenth-century garbage, which probably was almost as incomprehensible to seventeenth-century readers as it is to us."
 * "Saint Withold" is also referred to in various Robin Hood stories and Ivanhoe. These notes on Ivanhoe say; "a friar of Saint Withold (supposedly an Anglo-Saxon holy man)." Alansplodge (talk) 19:45, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * A couple of entirely OR things that might help with reading Shakespeare. 1) If there is a possible obscene reading, go with it. But unlike the book "Filthy Shakespeare", which is very interesting, remember that a double meaning means just that. There has also to be a non-obscene reading. 2) He might be parodying a popular lyric that is now lost to us. I suspect that is the case with "When icicles hang by the wall" and with "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day". Neither of these points are of immediately apparent relevance to the text cited, but they might turn up useful as you delve deeper. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:41, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Zombie (fictional)
"This archetype has emerged as a prolific subgenre of apocalyptic fiction and been portrayed in many zombie-related media post-Night." This statement in the zombie apocalypse is not clear. What the heck is media post-Night? I suggest someone should fix it.187.207.241.88 (talk) 19:46, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * My guess is that "post-Night" means "after Night of the Living Dead". Paul B (talk) 20:03, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought it might be referring to M. Night Shyamalan, but he's still around. ?--   Jack of Oz   [Talk]  20:08, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Billy the Kid
This is not a question; it is a correction!

In your list of films about the life of the person who became known as Billy,the Kid, there is an omission. Several decades ago (1957), there was a movie entitled The Parson and the Outlaw which theorized that Billy the Kid was not killed, but was assisted in establishing a new life by a local minister. One source for this is IMDb. The story is not believable (Billy as a middle-aged man?), but anyone who ever saw the movie will remember the haunting guitar score. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.182.10 (talk) 20:10, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * You should put this on the Billy the Kid talk page. The survival myth is quite well known, and not unique to Billy. It's also used in Young Guns II. Paul B (talk) 20:15, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Notice the section is titled "Selected references in popular culture". The film and its star actor are both rather obscure (though a few of the existing entries are equally little known). Clarityfiend (talk) 21:33, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

The European Economic Area: Farms, Fish and Tax
This document clams that EEA members get a pass on five areas of EU law: farms, fish, tax, foreign policy, justice and home affairs.

While I have seen tons of sources confirming the first two, the last three I haven't been able to find any other reliable sources that confirm it. Is the document wrong or can someone find confirmation hidden on a EEA website somewhere? --CGPGrey (talk) 20:52, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

hi, my name is peter de lange. i have a law degree. i'm from brussels. i read your twitter and answered your question. i'll explain it again.

http://www.efta.int/~/media/Documents/legal-texts/eea/the-eea-agreement/Main%20Text%20of%20the%20Agreement/EEAagreement.pdf this is the EEA agreement. if you read art. 1

"The aim of this Agreement of association is to promote a continuous and balanced strengthening of trade and economic relations between the Contracting Parties with equal conditions of competition, and the respect of the same rules, with a view to creating a homogeneous European Economic Area, hereinafter referred to as the EEA. 2. In order to attain the objectives set out in paragraph 1, the association shall entail, in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement : (a) the free movement of goods; (b) the free movement of persons; (c) the free movement of services; (d) the free movement of capital; (e) the setting up of a system ensuring that competition is not distorted and that the rules thereon are equally respected; as well as (f) closer cooperation in other fields, such as research and development, the environment, education and social policy

bon, i know law can be very boring and very incomprehensible. so look at the site of the EFTA http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement.aspx

in short: your document is right

side note: the european union is currently negotiating with iceland for a possible entrance to the EU. one of the biggest negotiating points is on fishing rights and quotas.

good luck with your videos! Delangepeter (talk) 08:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC)