Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 March 24

= March 24 =

Veritas Forum and Campus Crusade for Christ
Does the Veritas Forum just host dialogues between Christians and nonreligious people, or is the Forum more focused on religion in general and irreligion in general? I saw this flyer yesterday about "What is the meaning of life?" hosted by Veritas Forum. At first glance of the flyer, it looks like a forum between two professors. One is a professor in mathematics, and the other is a professor in philosophy. They don't really give their religious status. And about the Campus Crusade for Christ: is the main goal of the organization just trying to convert everybody on the planet to Christianity, or is the main goal of the organization trying to help people "connect with Jesus" while maintaining one's own cultural/religious heritage as long as one's native culture/religion does not interfere with basic Christian beliefs? If the latter case, then can a devout Jewish or Muslim person "connect with Jesus"? 65.24.105.132 (talk) 00:25, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The main goal of the Campus Crusade is to convert you to a particular brand of evangelical Protestant Christianity. A Muslim, Jew, and even certain types of Christians (particularly Catholics) can absolutely not "connect with Jesus" in any sense meaningful to the CCC. When I was younger and had more free time to spend on being an asshole, I could spend many hours arguing with the CCC from a Catholic perspective, just for amusement. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Why do you describe yourself as an "asshole"? Why did you do that made you an "asshole"? How long ago was then? Why did you stop being an "asshole"? If you have more free time, then would you continue being an "asshole"? Can a person become a Christian of the lowest common denominator? Which Christian church/denomination accepts everybody as full membership? Can a person become affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church but has mixed theology? 65.24.105.132 (talk) 01:37, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I was being facetious, but basically at my university the CCC liked to have "interviews" with the people in charge of the other student clubs, and I was in charge of Quiz Bowl for several years, so I was "interviewed" several times. And it was never an interview so much as an occasion for them to proselytize. I kept agreeing to talk to them just so I could annoy them and waste their time. I'm sorry I have no references except for personal experience and opinion, but Campus Crusade for Christ is the worst. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The most recent Veritas Forum at Penn hosted a debate between a Christian professor and an Atheist. It was cosponsored by the religious groups at Penn and the Penn Secular Society.  Unfortunately, Videos aren't up yet, so I can't give you an example. Ryan Vesey 01:10, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The upcoming Veritas Forum is between a Ohio State University professor in philosophy and some professor in mathematics. Little is known about their spiritual status. It is hosted in the Ohio Union and is sponsored by Christian Intervarsity groups on campus and the Secular Student Alliance. 65.24.105.132 (talk) 01:37, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * See Veritas Forum and Cru (Christian organization) for our articles on the subject, incidentally. Tevildo (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Large unfinished structure which began before 15thcentury
looking for Large unfinished structure which began before 15th century. Nave in Siena is one such but i was looking for others. would appreciate help49.206.53.229 (talk) 01:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)vsmurthy


 * Málaga Cathedral would come close; started in 1482, south tower remains unfinished to this day. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:21, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks but that is in 15th century 49.206.53.229 (talk) 03:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)vsmurthy
 * Interesting question... I was about to point you to Roslyn Chapel... but that was started in the 15th Century as well. Blueboar (talk) 03:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * By just typing "14th century unfinished" into Google, I found the unfinished "Facciatone" (nave extension) of the Duomo Nuovo in Siena. From our article; "A second massive addition of the main body of the cathedral was planned in 1339. It would have more than doubled the size of the structure by means of an entirely new nave and two aisles ranged perpendicular to the existing nave and centred on the high altar... Construction was halted by the Black Death in 1348. Basic errors in the construction were already evident by then, however, and the work was never resumed." Alansplodge (talk) 14:36, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * There are several at this link. There are probably some more that were begun in ancient times but never completed to their original plan, but have remains surviving. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Just for completeness, the Wikipedia article Unfinished building could use some expansion. :) 184.147.116.201 (talk) 16:35, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. I located the answer Narbonne Cathedral (Cathédrale Saint-Just-et-Saint-Pasteur de Narbonne) is a former cathedral, and national monument of France, located in the town of Narbonne. It is dedicated to Saints Justus and Pastor. It was the seat of the Archbishop of Narbonne until the Archbishopric was merged into the Diocese of Carcassonne under the Concordat of 1801. (The title, however, passed to the Archbishop of Toulouse.) The church was declared a basilica minor in 1886.[1] The building, begun in 1272,[2] is noted for being unfinished. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narbonne_Cathedral 49.206.53.229 (talk) 18:20, 26 March 2013 (UTC)vsmurthy

Which companies are the main manufacturers of computers for Western military aircraft?
Question asked by Willy turner (talk) 09:26, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and BAE Systems if memory serves. Probably Airbus for some. Check out the pages for the F-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter for a few more names. 81.159.249.142 (talk) 10:52, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Category:Avionics computers might be a start. Dmcq (talk) 11:58, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you mean manufacturers of the hardware that flies aboard the aircraft, the avionics (in flight) software, the hardware or software used in the aircraft design and manufacturing process, or something else? Astronaut (talk) 12:37, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * In-flight hardware and software needs to be to various MIL-STDs or whatever standards apply for the manufacturer in their country. As a result it is often built in-house (ie. made by the aircraft manufacturer themselves).  However, some components are sourced from commercial suppliers (for example, according to this press release, Eurotech supply Intel Atom-based hardware for military applications).  Design and manufacturing software (the field I used to work in) is a mixture of in-house development and commercially available packages, and will use commercially available Unix and PC hardware.  Astronaut (talk) 12:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

United Torah Judaism pro-settlement or oppose
Does United Torah Judaism support settlements in West Bank or not?--Donmust90 (talk) 17:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)Donmust90


 * Did you read our article? "UTJ has no opinion on the issue of increasing settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories."  --140.180.249.152 (talk) 18:13, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, the various factions of UTJ disagree strongly on the matter, hence the unified neutral stance. הסרפד  (call me Hasirpad) (formerly R——bo) 20:21, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I asked that because two West Bank settlements gave the party the most votes than any other according these two websites: [] which says in Hebrew, Matityahu and [] about Beitar Illit.--Donmust90 (talk) 15:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)Donmust90

Population along highway routes
I need to calculate the number of people who live within 100 miles of a U.S. Interstate (100 miles on either side of the Interstate). Is there some way to overlay census data on a state map of the interstate in order to get at least a rough estimate of how many people reside within a 200-mile wide corridor, 100-miles on either side of the highway?

Thank you for any suggestions you have about where to look for help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardbelldc (talk • contribs) 17:57, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The software that does these kinds of calculations easily is a Geographical Information System, for example ArcGIS. There are some free packages available. You would need to be able to download the Census data and "boundary data" in a format that the GIS can read, as well as a compatible map of the highways. Someone might have already done it, or be able to do it for you. A university department of geography could do it but would normally charge. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:23, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If you intend to go down this road (sorry) you can find census data shapefiles here and shapefiles for the highway system here. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:38, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Map of fat Interstates.svg
 * It might be easier to estimate the population who live further than 100 miles from an interstate. Looking at Google Maps and using straight-line distances, there don't seem to be many gaps - maybe a small corner of Maine, a thin strip along the Canadian border in the great plains, the upper penninsula of Michigan, a couple of spots in the Rockies, the bottom end of the Florida keys, maybe a few other places, all of which have quite low populations.  Astronaut (talk) 19:19, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the OP might want the numbers for particular interstates, rather than all interstates. I agree it is going to be pretty much the entire population if you look at all interstates combined. --Tango (talk) 00:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added the illustration to the right (derived from File:Map of current Interstates.svg. The white areas are more than ~100 miles from an interstate.  Astronaut (talk) 21:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Additional question: are you just looking for people inside the U.S., or do you also want to know how many people in Mexico and Canada live within 100 miles of a U.S. Interstate? Also, don't forget that Alaska and Hawaii also have interstate highways (the map provided by the previous poster only shows continental U.S.).  See Interstate_Highways_in_Alaska and Interstate_H-1.  RudolfRed (talk) 21:23, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Judging by the map above, the great majority of exceptions live in the Rio Grande Valley, which has a population of about 1.1 million people. Every other part has very low population density, as far as I can see. Looie496 (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Appreciation in value of early money
Say you live in a primitive society where nobody's ever heard of money, but there is a division of labor and a barter economy. Your job is to hunt with bows and arrows. When your bows and arrows are worn out and you need new ones, you barter some of the meat you produce to your neighbor whose jobs is to make bows and arrows.

Then people arrive from across the sea and start offering for barter commodities unavailable in your country in exchange for commoditites unavailable in theirs. But in their country, they buy and sell things for money, which consists of silver coins. Over time some people in your country become willing to accept silver coins as payment from the people across the sea because they know they can use them later to buy other things from those people. After this practice is established, people in your country start selling other commodities to their neighbors for silver coins, since that money is in effect backed by commodities that can be bought from the people from across the sea. As the number of people willing to accept silver coins as payment expands, the number of goods offered for sale for silver coins rapidly increases without any correspondingly rapid increase in the supply of silver coins. Hence prices go down. Realizing that prices will continue to go down over the next couple of years as the trend spreads further, some people start hoarding coins in order to be able to buy much larger quantities of goods with them a year or two from now than they can today. This further limits the supply of coins used in trade and thus further drives down prices, and thus more people are impressed by the increasing value of money, and become willing to accept it in payment. At some point the custom of using money to buy and sell things rather than barter spreads as far as it can spread throughout your country and then prices stop their general downward trend.

Michael Hardy (talk) 23:12, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Is this historically accurate as a description of what has happened when money was introduced for the first time in societies formerly using barter?
 * How much is known and how much unknown about the histories of such episodes?
 * Has anyone studied this sort of thing quantitatively in any detail?
 * Somewhere I saw a Wikipedia article saying money wasn't generally used in Rome until about 200 BC, whereas in Greece it had been used centuries earlier. Did any Roman writers describe this sort of thing?


 * I don't think you'd get any such effect. The value of the silver coins would be limited by what it could buy from the foreigners who introduced it. StuRat (talk) 23:22, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If it's _initially_ limited in that way, nonetheless its utility as a means of making trade far more efficient than by barter alone would give it some value beyond that.
 * But you, see a big problem with your answer and this comment of mine is the word "would". I'm asking what has happened, not what _would_ happen. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * (ec) I suspect the opposite is true. As the silver coins become more desirable among your compatriots, the value of your labour, your meat, or whatever you produce becomes relatively less.  What's more, seeing the increased desirability of the coins, the foreigners start demanding more for the same number of coins.  This is known as inflation.  Astronaut (talk) 23:35, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If the value of your meat, your labor, etc., becomes _less_ relative to the coins, that means the value of the coins becomes relatively _more_, which is exactly what I was saying. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Is History of money the article you were thinking of? It seems well-referenced with a number of books you might want to pursue. 184.147.116.201 (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Silver coins aren't backed by commodities that can be bought from the people from across the sea but by their silver value. Silver coins can be melted down and made into jewelery. Sleigh (talk) 02:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * @Sleigh: That would be true only among people who have uses for silver other than as a medium of exchange. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * When the Romans traded for spices from ancient India, the Indians would only accept gold in exchange. The Romans bought the spices with Roman gold coins which the Indians melted down for jewelery. Sleigh (talk) 09:00, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The one example of sustained trading contact between people who used money and people who didn't is the maritime fur trade era of the Pacific Northwest coast, circa 1780-1840. I don't think coins were ever used in that trade for at least two major reasons. First, the indigenous people didn't see them as valuable within their existence culture. They were interested in things that traditionally indicated high status, such as pieces and sheets of copper, and things of obvious use, like kettles, steel knives, and of course firearms. Over time as fur bearing animals were depleted clothing became an important item of trade. The value of all traded items fluctuated wildly over the course of even a single trading season, and the indigenous people were shrewd traders. It's hard to imagine they would believe a coin trade at one value would be worth the same value at a later time. The second major reason coins weren't much used, if at all, was because the fur trade was almost always part of a larger trade system that involved China. For most of the period China was unwilling to accept anything other than silver and furs. These trading ships visited the Northwest Coast full of silver coins, but not for use on the coast. It was far more important to save them for China. In short, you could get a lot more for silver in China than you could on the Northwest Coast. Pfly (talk) 22:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * PS, however, in my example, furs did become a trade item valued more than their worth as simply furs and trade among indigenous peoples boomed. Interior peoples who did not have direct contact with the trading ships traded beaver fur with coastal people, in exchange for the trade goods brought by the ships. And yes, there was a dramatic decline in the value of beaver fur on the coast, to the point where trading ships took loses for years on end, "dumping" their trade goods for any price. This was in part because the trade goods were not worth anything to them after they left the coast and cargo space could be more valuably filled with Chinese goods later. It was also done in part to undersell other ship merchants, as they were all in competition with one another. There was also lots of hording by indigenous people of the more valuable sea otter pelts. Over time, even over the course of a single trading season, sea otter pelts increased in value, which led to hording. Not a few merchant captains knew a particular village was hording furs and took them by force. Pfly (talk) 00:23, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Firearms were cheap but serpentine was very expensive. Sleigh (talk) 08:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)