Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 October 20

= October 20 =

Liking children
Why is it that in Western society, men who like children are heavily ostracized and suspected of pedophilia? I remember my uncle telling me (in China and in Chinese) that my grandpa only/particularly likes children. There was not a hint of criticism or impropriety in his compliment, which he made because my grandpa was the one who raised me during my childhood. Now, a few years later, I realize how creepy that comment would sound in English. Is this distrust a recent development, and if so, why did it develop? Also, how do I actually say that my (recently deceased) grandpa only likes children and have it come out as a compliment? --140.180.252.60 (talk) 00:04, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * We can't give you advice or provide a referenced answer about how you should refer to your grandfather. μηδείς (talk) 01:05, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Excuse me, I find your behaviour unbelievably rude. There's a Language reference desk where questions like "how you should refer to your grandfather" to express a certain meaning are routinely asked and answered.  I didn't put my question there because 1) the question about language is only a small portion of my overall question, and 2) the overall question is more cultural than linguistic.  --140.180.252.60 (talk) 9:32 pm, Today (UTC−4)
 * Be calm. This is only your second edit here. Medeis will grow on you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:14, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Really? I've been around for ages and Medeis hasn't grown on me. Dismas |(talk) 03:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I find Medeis writes many constructive posts that are both intelligent and referenced. As for the cranky posts, we can teach people gently how to sidestep them, without any need for anger or sarcasm. The main problem with any cranky post is it allows things to escalate. IBE (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough, the early escalator prototypes were operated by cranks. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:55, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Please read the guidelines. We don't offer opinions or advice.  We have no references that tell us anything about your grandfather.  Please seek an internet chat forum. If you have a complaint, you are aware of the talk page. μηδείς (talk) 02:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Come on, Medeis. You're fixating again, this time solely on the OP's final sentence. Please let people answer the foregoing question: "Is this distrust a recent development, and if so, why did it develop?".  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  02:49, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I must say the references below are impressive. μηδείς (talk) 15:43, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That is completely beside the point, and you know it. This is sour grapes, and is akin to someone who advocates the abolition of the laws prohibiting murder, rape, incest, robbery and treason, on the grounds that people are just going to go right on doing them anyway, and when they do she sulks "See, I told you so".  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm still trying to figure out just what "he only likes children" is actually supposed to mean in Chinese language or culture. Is "like" a euphemism for sexual attraction? Or does it just mean platonically preferring the company of whatever group? Since the IP has only commented twice - once to pose this ambiguous question, and once to attack one of the responders, we may never know - in which case boxing up this section might be appropriate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I "only" commented twice? How many times did you expect me to post within 12 hours?  Anyhow, in context the phrase just meant that he likes playing with children, taking care of them, etc. more than he likes playing with adults.  "Like" can be used as an euphemism for sexual attraction, but according to my admittedly-limited knowledge of Chinese culture, "he only/especially likes children" would not raise as many eyebrows as it does in English.
 * Also, I should add that while I'm not a Wikipedia regular, this is not my 2nd edit on Wikipedia. I have a dynamic IP, like most people, and I've made minor contributions under other IPs.  --140.180.253.116 (talk) 16:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So you mean "platonically", right? No sexual contact or anything resembling sexual contact, right? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd say the reason is that in the West cases of pedophilia now appear in the media, while they are less likely to be in China. Thus, this creates a suspicion in the West that everyone who likes kids might be a pedophile.  As for why these stories are more publicized in the West, this is likely because of freedom of the press and capitalism, since such stories sell.  In China, however, the freedom of the press is quite limited, and they are prone to cover up anything that might reflect negatively on Chinese society. StuRat (talk) 03:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * When you say someone "only likes children", it sounds creepy, as it implies a pedophile, or the Lewis Carroll syndrome, or whatever. If you say "he loved children", that works better. That, of course, assumes your grandfather was not actually a pedophile. Right? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I can't say if the same is true for all of Western society but in the US at least there are many stereotypes and things associated with men vs. women. For instance, if a man is a florist or works in women's fashion, then he's often assumed to be gay.  Gender role has more information related to what you're asking about as far as the societal views.  Dismas |(talk) 03:34, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Some things are a lot more open than they used to be, and some things are very visibly on our radar which didn't used to be or were just a minor blip. Consider the scene in Miracle on 34th Street where John Payne is babysitting for his girlfriend Maureen O'Hara's daughter, Natalie Wood, who's about 8 or 9 at that point. Nowadays you would have to be careful with a scene like that. In 1947, presumably no one thought anything of it. (Certainly the Hays Office was OK with it, or it wouldn't have been in the picture.) And as you say, females as babysitters is somehow socially OK - even though women have also been known to be pervs. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:51, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I never said anything about babysitters, so I'm not sure why, judging by the indentation, you're replying to me. And I've never seen Miracle on 34th Street.  Dismas |(talk) 06:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You talked about gender roles, which is what reminded me of it. You've never seen Miracle on 34th Street??? You are culturally deprived! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * @Baseball Bugs:  I've only seen It's a Wonderful Life once as well.  I don't really enjoy older movies like those very much, so I only watch them maybe once to be exposed to them for my own education and after that, I'm done with them.  That and I'm not really a James Stewart fan.  Dismas |(talk) 05:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Any classic film is deserving of being seen once, just for educational purposes. I saw Citizen Kane once. It was well done and innovative in various ways, but once was enough. But then I was also not a great fan of Orson Welles, although he narrated Bugs Bunny, Superstar. I recommend you see Miracle on 34th Street once (the original, uncolorized version). It's quite a bit less heavy-handed than IAWL is. It's also interesting to see how commercialized Christmastime had already become, in the year or two that had passed since the end of WWII. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Jonathan Swift liked children, or at least Irish ones. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:56, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * ...in the same way that the natives often liked missionaries, especially a nice plump friar. StuRat (talk) 16:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And in a similar vein... Woman: "Do you like children?" W.C. Fields: "I do if they're properly cooked." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * We don't have a single reliable source so far. μηδείς (talk) 18:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * IF there is a single serious, referenced answer to this "question", let's have it. μηδείς (talk) 18:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Moral panic and Think of the children are relevant articles. As to the OP's last question, describing the good things that his grandfather did for children would defuse the innuendo in the raw statement. Tevildo (talk) 22:14, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Abdication of King George III of Great Britain
Hi, what year did King George III write his (failed) abdication speech? Cheers,  Uhlan  talk  03:53, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Our article (George III of the United Kingdom) isn't absolutely clear on this, but it would have to be late 1781, or more likely 1782. I'll see if I can find a solid source, and maybe update the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) Hi, our article on George III of the United Kingdom lists 2 references following the information that he wrote it soon after news of the defeat at Yorktown in 1781. The references are not web based but the way the article is written it appears that the year 1781 or possibly early 1782 would be the correct answer to this.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way   04:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok thank you.  Uhlan  talk  04:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, but AndyTheGrump may also update with additional web resources and if I find anything I'll be sure to add it here. Unless the 1781-82 time frame is as much specificity as you needed.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  04:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Looking into this further, it seems that the exact date (or dates - there may have been more than one draft letter) is unsure. The text of a draft can be found here:  AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * So basically the most historically accurate information would simply be, 'the failed abdication attempt occurred during a period of after the Battle of Yorktown, to early 1782'?  Uhlan  talk  08:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure it could be described as a 'failed abdication attempt'. It seems to be more of a case of George III contemplating abdication, but never actually going through with it. According to this BBC article, he had done the same thing earlier, only five years into his reign. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In any event, British monarchs cannot abdicate unilaterally. It requires firstly the agreement of the government, and then the approval of the parliament in passing a bill amending the law of succession.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:35, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This discussion sounds vaguely familiar. In theory, a king who didn't want to be king could simply refuse to perform any of his royal duties. If he ends up like King Charles I did, it wouldn't technically be abdication, but it would be the same result: not the king anymore. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:47, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's not have this hypothetical discussion. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The guy who abdicated in the 1930s fits this description in some sense, per some schools of thought. Except he was actually allowed to abdicate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:00, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Prevailed upon, more likely. He was given a set of options, but remaining king with "the woman he loved" by his side was not one of them.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  07:35, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but there's a school of thought that he didn't really want to be king anyway, so this all worked out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

When and where was William Samuel Henson born?
Hello! I'm trying to improve the article about William Samuel Henson in Russian Wikipedia, and I've found that great confusion exists about his birth data. Different sources cite Nottingham, Chard or Leicester as his birthplace (I've consulted printed sources in Russian as well as Web sources in English). Neither is the date of his birth certain. The article in English Wiki states that "Henson was born on 3 May 1812 (some sources incorrectly say 1805)". But how can it be demonstrated that the sources citing 1805 as the year of his birh are all incorrect? Is it a POV or there is a current consensus among historians that 1812 is his true birthyear? And why did such a confusion rise? I tried the talkpage of the article but it's likely that nobody noticed. I feel grateful to anybody who would help me to disentangle the issue. Эйхер (talk) 14:35, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * You can ask the Library of Congress, Washington, DC.
 * Ask a Librarian (Library of Congress).
 * You can ask the Bodleian Library at the University of Oxford, Oxford, UK.
 * Bodleian Libraries | Ask a Librarian
 * —Wavelength (talk) 02:34, 21 October 2013 (UTC) and 02:54, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * [Unfortunately, it appears that only registered students can ask a librarian at the Bodleian Library.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)]
 * I beg pardon for my stupid question, but what may I ask them? Should I try exactly the question I've typed above or I'm expected to ask only about what printed sources exist on the biography of Mr. Henson? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Эйхер (talk • contribs) 06:49, 21 October 2013 (UTC)  Sorry about my absent-mindedness. Эйхер (talk) 06:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I recommend that you ask the same questions that you asked here.
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


 * You can ask Open University Library (distance education) in the UK.
 * Help and Support | Library Services | Open University (Scroll down and click on "Chat to a Librarian".)
 * You can ask the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council in England.
 * People's Network online services from public libraries Home
 * —Wavelength (talk) 16:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much! I'll try. Эйхер (talk) 16:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Robbery of medals etc in London
Following a robbery of medals in London 19th October I wish to advertise them as stolen in various online sites. Which sites would you recommend please? Kittybrewster  &#9742;  17:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I see a lot of lost, stolen or missing items posted on Facebook and Twitter these days. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:33, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not a recommendation (please read the article), but the Art Loss Register does exist for this purpose. This site gives details of the Met's official database. Tevildo (talk) 21:08, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Was there any attempted cooperation between Napoleonic France & USA in the War of 1812?
I realize that formal alliances were discouraged by Washington, and that there was some hostility towards France from the 1790s, but I was wondering if due to military necessity there was any cooperation between America & Napoleonic France against their common enemy during the War of 1812? Were there any official statements by the French government of ambassadors when USA declared war on UK? Likewise did Britian's European Allies consider America to be an enemy? --Gary123 (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Not directly responsive to the question, but I'm reading a book by Garry Wills right now called The Negro President (referring to Thomas Jefferson who obtained the presidency because each slave in the South counted as 6/10 of a person for purposes of determining the number of representatives, and hence the number of electors, a state had: more slaves in the South → more electors → better chance for a southern candidate like Jefferson to do well in the electoral college).
 * Much of the last half of the book is devoted to Jefferson's Embargo on ship trade with England. He said it was to prevent England from raiding US ships on the high seas to take back the seamen who had deserted from English ships. But some people thought it was an overreaction due to Jefferson's love of France and detesting of England, and the effect on England was too small for England to notice. Of course this was a few years before the War of 1812, but the situation was the same. Duoduoduo (talk) 18:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * See Embargo Act of 1807. It was directed against both France and England, but I think as a practical matter it was simply directed at England. Duoduoduo (talk) 19:04, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

What is 'hitting rock bottom' in economics
When journalists say something hit rock bottom are they into something? Is there a bottom to a national economy, stock price, index or whatever? Can't anything always fall a little bit more, up to 0% in most cases? (It's clear that commodities won't ever fall to $0.01, but all the rest?) OsmanRF34 (talk) 20:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I think in many cases there is a bottom. Take home prices, for example.  If they drop too low, renters will buy them not as an investment, but just to save on rent.  So, they can only go so low.  Exceptions are where the home is unlivable, requires expensive repairs, or has a tax lien against it more than it's worth.  The only cases where there is no bottom would be where the item has no intrinsic value, like pet rocks.  StuRat (talk) 22:16, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * There's the possibility that they're just using hyperbole. Dismas |(talk) 22:53, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Still, Pet Rocks are good for something; their article says that they were ordinary stones bought at a builder's supply store. You might as well buy them for whatever price the supply stores are selling them :-)  Osman, presumably it's hyperbole.  They're basically saying "We don't think it can go any farther", although of course that's just about always possible.  This is related to the "mathematically impossible" discussion at Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 August 22 (I don't know how I remembered that discussion!), because the journalist who says "hit rock bottom" is analogous to sportscaster #1 saying "This is impossible".  Both could be wrong, although the phrase is used to mean "I can't imagine a realistic chance that it will go any other way".  Nyttend (talk) 04:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

are any foods made of apple seeds?
I at an apple seed and found it interesting/good. are any foods made up of ground up apple seeds (etc)?

http://www.snopes.com/food/warnings/apples.asp mentions they have some poisons but I assume this could be removed. 212.96.61.236 (talk) 22:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * That doesn't mean they can be made safe in a cost-effective way. StuRat (talk) 22:21, 20 October 2013 (UTC)


 * So that means apple seeds just aren't used to create a food product? are any other normally inedible pits used in this way? 212.96.61.236 (talk) 23:27, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, according to Apple seed oil, they are used to make edible products. The main thing is to avoid the cyanide part. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:48, 20 October 2013 (UTC)