Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 October 23

= October 23 =

humanities
i want all information about the grandson of raavana in the Ramayana.i am referring to vanmali — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.118.241 (talk) 11:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Does the Wikipedia article titled Ravana help any? -- Jayron  32  17:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Vanmali isn't mentioned in the article. --Soman (talk) 03:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I've asked WikiProject India if they can help you. The only grandsons of Ravan that I've heard of are Ahiravan and Mahiravan (but not in all versions of the story). Taknaran (talk) 13:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ahiravana, Mahiravana are described his brothers of Ravana. I could not find any mention of sons of Indrajita in the Valmiki Ramayana or the Puranas. Regional Ramayanas may have a character called as Vanmali. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 17:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Identifying source Journals..
In a work at Wikosurce which I've just finished doing an inital transcription on there are some references to other journals.

Some of these are obvious, but it would be appreciate if someone can help with decoding..

Book_of_Halloween/Magazine_References_to_Hallowe%27en_Entertainments

I can't figure out what Delin and W.H.C are. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * W.H.C. is likely Woman's Home Companion. It was published from 1873 until 1957. Delin is likely The Delineator. Edison (talk) 14:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And Harper's Bazaar was formerly called Harper's Bazar, but it's never been spelled Bazzar. Deor (talk) 21:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Any Info on Jessie Willcox Smith?
I am a student at the College of Staten Island creating a more in depth page for the designer and Illustrator Jessie Willcox Smith. If anyone has any info that I could use it would be most helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnmccarthyyy (talk • contribs) 16:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I take it that you've already seen our Jessie Willcox Smith page and the list of links at the end? This page has a list of external links and below that, sources, all at the very bottom of the page. Jessie Willcox Smith: American Illustrator by Edward D. Nudelman has a preview on Google Books (well, it does for me anyway!) Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Wu Sangui (another story)
There is a story about Wu Sangui and the Qing Leader Dorgon (1643 – 1650). This story contradicts to “Loyalty and revolt” describing Wu Sangui in Wikipedia.

Before Wu opened the gates of the Great Wall of China at Shanghai Pass to let the Qing forces into China proper on 25 May 1644, Wu and Dorgon had agreed upon something. Wu agreed to open the gates of the Great Wall of China. Dorgon agreed to let the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong remain independent from the territory of Qing Empire. At that time, the rebel force of Li Zicheng had already sacked the Ming capital Beijing.

After the death of Dorgon on 31 December 1650, Shunzhi Emperor started to rule personally. Shunzhi Emperor started the plan to get back the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong from the control of Wu. In 1655, Qing government titled Wu as “Pingxi Prince” and Wu granted governorship of Yunnan and Guizhou. Qing government also titled the other two generals, Shang Kexi and and Geng Zhongming, who had served in Ming Dynasty, as “Pingnan Prince” and “Jingnan Prince”. Shang was put in charge of the province of Guangdong. Geng was put in charge of the province of Fujian.

After the death of Shunzhi Emperor on 5 February 1661, Kangxi Emperor became the successor of the Qing Dynasty. Kangxi Emperor broke all the promises made by Dorgon to Wu. At that time, Geng Jingzhong had inherited the title of “Jingnan Prince” from his father Geng Jimao, who had inherited it from his grandfather Geng Zhongming. In 1673, Kangxi Emperor accepted the request of Shang’s retirement. Kangxi Emperor also accepted the request of Wu’s retirement and Geng’s retirement shortly after Shang’s retirement.

The war between Wu and Kangxi Emperor started in the following year. Zheng Jing, who was the King of Taiwan, joined the force against Kangxi Emperor. In 1678, Wu claimed himself the emperor of Great Zhou Dynasty. The generals were Wu Shifan, Geng Jingzhong, and Shang Zhixin. In 1681, the Great Zhou Dynasty was defeated and completely destroyed. The generals were captured or died. Zheng surrendered to Qing in October 1683. Taiwan and the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong, became part of Qing Empire after the war.

Kangxi Emperor broke the promises made by Dorgon to Wu was known to all the scholars. Many scholars refused to serve Kangxi Emperor. There were a few scholars served Kangxi Emperor. Many people were arrested under language inquisition or speech crime. However, the most well-known inquisition was the “Case of the History of the Ming Dynasty” in 1661-1662 before Kangxi Emperor came in power in 1669; Wu was “Pingxi Prince” at that time.

This story contradicts to “Loyalty and revolt”, which is unfair to Wu. Kangxi Emperor, who had many achievements afterwards, broke the promises made by Dorgon to Wu. This is the cause of the war between Kangxi Emperor and Wu that the war is later known as “Revolt of the Three Feudatories”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.18.56.147 (talk) 21:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


 * You will need a source to support this information if you believe it should be included in Wikipedia. - Ka renjc (talk) 22:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Do you have a question? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2013 (UTC
 * The OP seems to be complaining that the article section Wu Sangui is unfair to the article subject, and offers an explanation why. The place to discuss this is at Talk:Wu Sangui, but as I said, reliable sources will be needed. - Ka renjc (talk) 06:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe he should contact Mr. Wu's attorney, the Hon. Charles H. Hungadunga. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Speed of transport in 1810s Europe
I'd never heard of the Malet coup of 1812 until just now, when I saw it on the Main Page. According to the "Suppression of the coup" section, Napoleon wrote letters after 7 October that reached Paris by 23 October. According to File:Patriotic War of 1812 ENG map1.svg, Napoleon was near Moscow by the beginning of October. How long would it normally take for an unimpeded express courier to travel this route at this time? Nyttend (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Doing some searching, I'm getting (very rough estimate) the distance from Moscow to Paris at 1700 miles or so. The Pony Express could get mail and packages from Missouri to California in about 10 days, which is roughly 2000 miles.  So, Napoleon's message certainly could have gotten the message to Paris in a little over 2 weeks.  -- Jayron  32  23:00, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * According to a footnote here, Napoleon himself made it from Smarhon’ in Belarus to Paris in twelve days in December of that year. p. 179 also has a reply written on 16/10 to a letter from the Countess Montesquiou, his son's governess & so presumably in Paris, which was sent on 27/9 - so at this time in the campaign he was returning letters within nineteen days at the outmost. Remember that once an official message got near France it could have been picked up by the Chappé telegraph; by 1812 there was a signal network as far as Amsterdam and Venice, so I'm not sure how far east it had got into Germany. Andrew Gray (talk) 23:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Simply Chappe telegraph (no accent). — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirect has been created. Tevildo (talk) 20:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In French, no accent to Claude Chappe, the inventor. Strange that his name gets one in English. — AldoSyrt (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe he's considered a happé chappé in Englois. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:56, 26 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I know I have seen travel time maps like these of the US in 1800/1830 of France during the revolutionary and Napoleonic eras in a class I took on the era as an undergrad. I have not succeeded at google, but they exist. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Referring to civil unrest and violence in Northern Ireland
When referring to violence in Northern Ireland (specifically in the second half of the 20th century) is saying "the Troubles" considered politically charged? Is there an accepted way to write about this in say political science or IR or global affairs literature? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.212.253.17 (talk) 23:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia article is titled The Troubles and makes no specific mention that the term is perjorative or charged; however like much involved in such ethnic conflicts, literally EVERYTHING is "charged" in the sense that there is probably no "neutral" stance. -- Jayron  32  23:52, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Covering the troubles Christopher Hitchens was stopped by armed men at a roadblock and asked, "Are you Catholic or Protestant?" Hitchens replied, "I'm an atheist."  The gunman responded, "Catholic atheist, or Protestant atheist?" μηδείς (talk) 01:01, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a variant of an old joke; in its more classic form, the reply "I'm a Jew" is followed by "Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?" AnonMoos (talk) 01:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If so, Hitchens' version at least makes sense; me being a Jewish Catholic, and a Catholic atheist. μηδείς (talk) 20:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * So were you like Bill Maher, who said he used to go to Confession and bring a lawyer with him? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Good one! Actually, if you needed a lawyer the best confessor to go to would be a Jesuit.  They could be relied on to find loopholes to make your sins into lesser ones or guilt-free.  It's called casuistry.  Technically I am Jewish through my mother's ancestry.  Culturally I am Catholic.  But I have no faith. μηδείς (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I always thought of it as a typically Irish, fairly understated euphemism similar to World War II being known as "The Emergency". Biggs Pliff (talk) 01:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * English also, as in the book 1066 and All That. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:00, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't recall seeing any alternative term that is at least quasi-official, universal and less charged. Militant Republicans have used the phrase "the Armed Struggle" for the IRA's campaign against British military presence in Northern Ireland, but this hardly counts. The University of Ulster's CAIN website (Conflict Archive on the INternet) includes a good glossary of terms, loaded and neutral, connected with this subject, and points out that its own site uses 'The Troubles' and 'Northern Ireland conflict' interchangeably. - Ka renjc (talk) 07:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * My view (UK) is that "The Troubles" came into use precisely because it was seen as much less politically charged than any alternative. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Alansplodge (talk) 07:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep. Even "Northern Ireland conflict" has connotations for those who prefer the term "Ulster".  The CAIN glossary points out that it's not the first time the term "The Troubles"  has been used to refer to violence and unrest in Irish history. -  Ka renjc (talk) 07:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Although I think you would have to specify if you meant any other "Troubles" than the late 20th century ones. Alansplodge (talk) 12:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe not. Russia had its Time of Troubles between 1598 and 1613.  God knows they've had an unending litany of troubled times, a litany that started many centuries before this relatively short period and has continued right up to the present day, but that specific expression refers only to the link.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:00, 24 October 2013 (UTC)