Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 October 28

= October 28 =

Prayer Book recommendations
Our Scout group is looking for a new prayer book. Our members are mainly boys aged 10-14, most of whom are from a Church of England background. We are not a particularly religious group, but we do like to say a simple group prayer once a week. Could anybody recommend something suitable for us to use? Thanks :) — sparklism  hey! 09:05, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Noting that Baden-Powell himself moved away from a purely Christian view of spirituality as he grew older, and saw Scouting grow in non-Christian populations, I like to see prayers that are more global and encompassing of many views. World Prayers has tried to collect some good examples. HiLo48 (talk) 09:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Hmm, that's a good resource and we could certainly use some of that, but it's not quite what we are looking for. Let me ask the question a different way: What are the best Christian prayer books for early-teen aged boys? Thanks. — sparklism hey! 10:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Have you tried going off-the-cuff? I mean, besides being a token of a more personal/sincere religion, it would be more effective in uniting a group of people in something relatable. This is not to say that it should be impromptu, by all means prepare it beforehand if you see it fit. "And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words." (Mat 6:7) Plasmic Physics (talk) 11:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * We already do some of that with varying degrees of success, but I was hoping we could find something to fall back on for those busy weeks when we haven't had time to prepare anything ourselves (of which there are many!). Thanks — sparklism hey! 11:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Then I can't help. All I can say that may or may not be of use: it's not the number, or eloquence of your words in prayer that matters, what matters, is that you understand and believe what you pray for. God already knows your prayer before you utter it. Thus, even a simple prayer in sincerity will do. You shouldn't dread what others' opinion of you may become because of what you do, as long as you have a sincere intent, for you have your reward in Christ. Plasmic Physics (talk) 11:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Reading this thread more and more and genuinely seeking to assist, it seems like you are seeking some guidance prayers or moralistic prayers, or even ideas for them. A Bible concordance or if it assists a toastmasters guide or book or a quotations book could either provide some prayer material or at least be a quick reference for getting a great idea or prayer topic for the week without too much strain or time commitment, also allowing you to tailor the prayer topic to current troop situations of the week. That said I'll look around for something that meets your exact specs.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way   11:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There are numerous books of prayer (and devotions) for any age group. Just google "teen prayer book", etc. Better yet, go to a local Christian bookshop or church store where you can page through it. Googling "Scout prayer book" bring up many locally made online resources although I don't see any official publications. Most of these seem to be American (and so include perhaps more Native American-inpsired "Great Spirit" language) but some examples are A Scout is Reverent which is specifically Catholic, Handbook of Boy scout Prayers and The Big Book of Scout Worship Services are both online. Rmhermen (talk) 16:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * What does "where you clean page through it" mean, Rmhermen? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "can" not clean. Thinko fixed. Wonder what I was thinking of. Rmhermen (talk) 20:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Are you really sure it has to be Christian? Scouting is NOT a Christian organisation, and is meant to take a global view of spirituality. You would be doing a better job for your Scouts by expanding beyond the Christian view. (And that doesn't mean rejecting that view if it's important to you. Just looking wider as well.) HiLo48 (talk) 20:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Pentecost Island, Vanuatu
Are the inhabitants of Pentecost Island Pentecostal Christians? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.225.153 (talk) 12:09, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If the question is if the island was named because of a population of Pentecostal Christians, it was not. As wikipedia's Pentecost_Island states it was named because it was sighted by the French on the day of Pentecost.  Our article says nothing of any sizable population of 'Pentecostal Christians' and since it was named long before it was 'Christianized' it is doubtful there is a majority there or even a sizable population of Pentecostals.    Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way   12:15, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The same for Christmas Island and Easter Island. Sadly, there is no Halloween or Guy Fawkes Night Island. Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

House of Lords laughter
Lord Tebbit of the UK House of Lords got a pretty good reaction with: "There is a precedent for being divisive, there are sheep and there are goats." What does that mean exactly, and why were some Lords chuckling? A Google search just turns up more links to the speech. Is this just simply a schoolyard expression similar to 'raining cats & dogs' with no real meaning aside from just being unique or is there something more to this? The quote can be found as a twitter item and at 5:20 on Youtube.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  12:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * "Sheep and goats" is a Bible reference. Sheep are associated with peaceable dependence upon a leader, whereas goats are associated with maliciousness, stubbornness, and the desire to be self-governed. Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Interesting, thanks for the quick response! I'll have to look that up.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way   12:29, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * A most relevant text from the Bible would be: Matthew 25:31-46. From it you can see how "goats" are generally viewed with negative connotations. Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:52, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Is that perhaps the reason somebody who messes up and costs his team the World Series is tagged a "goat"? (This year's Series has several candidates, depending on who ultimately wins.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * That's a scapegoat. Looie496 (talk) 16:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice Bugs! Looie496 too, then again in Chicago it might be a Billy Goat!  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  03:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * What's the Greek equivalent of "Oy!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Goat and scapegoat are different. As the article notes, a "scapegoat" receives unmerited blame for a loss or problem. The "goat" deserves his blame. Matt Deres (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Note that "sheep" also has negative connotations, meaning those who blindly follow a leader, with no mind of their own. StuRat (talk) 14:52, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, sure... but enough about the British Parliament. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Tebbit was referring to Margaret Thatcher's reputation for being "divisive", something for which she was often criticised by clerics, notably David Sheppard, bishop of Liverpool. Tebbit says that her religious beliefs were an important influence on her. The full sentence is: "If I may observe to the right reverend Prelates, there is a precedent for being divisive, there are sheep and there are goats!." In other words, he's saying that Jesus himself was "divisive". Paul B (talk) 16:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Paul's sussed it out correctly, and in Matthew the reference to 'goats' connotes uncharitable people. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Paul B & Til Eulenspiegel. This is the kind of backstory I was hoping to solicit here, as with politics there is always much more to the story then immediately meets the eye, and that's a good thing sometimes.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way   23:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

We have an article about "The Sheep and the Goats".Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There it is, thanks Richard-of-Earth.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  23:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There's another point that I think should be mentioned - Margaret Thatcher's political downfall was precipitated by Sir Geoffrey Howe, whose speeches were famously described by Denis Healey as "like being savaged by a dead sheep." Tebbit probably didn't intend to intentionally refer to Howe in his speech, but I'm sure that many of the noble Lords that laughed at it were remembering this reference. Tevildo (talk) 08:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that info Tevildo, to me there is nothing more interesting then political intrigues to tell us how a people think and value things, as one who is very familiar with the U.S. system on all levels (states included) it is fascinating to learn all potential angles to a backstory such as this one.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  02:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia Founder
Did the founder of Wikipedia have some of his editing rights removed just because he deleted some inappropriate content?EmbracingCensorship (talk) 12:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you're missing a word there? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 12:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * DoneEmbracingCensorship (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Quack - Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The way I remember it, Wales gave up some Wikimedia Commons privileges to deflect criticisms that some of his actions on Wikimedia Commons were conspicuously "out of process". He wasn't otherwise particularly involved in Wikimedia Commons... AnonMoos (talk) 13:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Death of Phaethon
If Phaethon is a son of god Helios and goddess Clymene, thus being a god, why did he die? Could the Greek gods die?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Um, gods are fictional entities, so their properties are whatever the storyteller feels like. But our article on the dying-and-rising god might be interesting to you. Looie496 (talk) 16:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Phaeton's mother was some sort (variously given) of water spirit - not necessarily a goddess. And he was killed by Zeus himself. Rmhermen (talk) 16:27, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * She was a nymph, a daughter of Titan Oceanus. Despite being lower in hierarchy I think nymphs are immortal like gods. And their children should be. Even if Phaethon died because of almighty Zeus, nevertheless are there other Greek immortals who died?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Our Phaethon article lists 4 possible mothers and two possible fathers. Rmhermen (talk) 20:05, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The Greek gods, I meant. They are supposed to be immortal in mythology.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The demi-gods Asclepius and Heracles both died. Rmhermen (talk) 20:15, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Several children of nymphs died - not least Achilles, but also Pelops, Linus and others (technically Pelops was resurrected but he had to die first). Effovex (talk) 04:54, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Dionysus was a Greek god who died. He was reborn later, but in the myth he did die.  He is the epitome of a dying-and-rising god. Looie496 (talk) 23:46, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In some versions he was half-mortal - and didn't die. Rmhermen (talk) 02:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Greek Gods could die, but most were simply captured and caged for long periods. However there have been two Greek Gods who died.: Pan and Asclepius.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, in many myths the Greek gods are not inherently immortal, they are immortal only because they consume ambrosia. A god deprived of ambrosia could presumably die. --Nicknack009 (talk) 17:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The ole switcheroo
Allowing all current and former living American Presidents to make the pitch, what is the probability they could convince the parties in charge to establish a sovereign Tibet "in exchange for" a semi-autonomous Taiwan under the PRC where Taiwan maintains a certain degree domestic autonomy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.240.77.215 (talk) 19:39, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest hatting or removing this - it is only an invitation to debate. Can you please rephrase this as a reference desk question, ie. one that we can actually answer? IBE (talk) 20:39, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * No debate. The answer is zero, zilch, less than Sarah Palin's electability. Taiwan isn't the 51st state, last time I looked. The President can't negotiate with a chip he or she doesn't own, said chip not at all interested in such an unappetizing bargain with no advantages for it. How would you like it if I sold the tires on your car to go out to dinner? Clarityfiend (talk) 21:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Better offer, China gives up Tibet, and in exchange are allowed to annex North Korea. Everyone would win, except for the "leadership" of NK. :-) StuRat (talk) 21:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Getting to the bottom of things
Can anyone tell me if Mr. Richard Ober, reportedly a counter-intelligence deputy under Mr. J. J. Angleton is among the living? Is he still mentally competent? I hope someone can answer in the affirmative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.240.77.215 (talk) 22:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem to be an article here on a Richard Ober. What have you found in Google so far? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:52, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Seeming he passed away in 2001 prior to December of that year. Whether he remained mentally competent to the end is unclear. Am now wondering what metals, ribbons, and citations he received for his service to the United States (or our allies) both prior to death and post-death. Thank you.
 * Whoever Ober is, he's not mentioned in the James Jesus Angleton article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


 * He IS mentioned in the Operation CHAOS article. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:56, 29 October 2013 (UTC)