Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 September 12

= September 12 =

National Flower of Germany?
Hello, what is the national flower of Germany? Seems like a strange question from a German, but several English-language sources (mostly botanical Q&A books and notably the EB) claim, that it's the cornflower. This flower was used as symbol in the 19th century, and later sparingly by nationalistic circles pre-WWII. However, i haven't come across any official or semi-official usage of this flower in modern-day Germany - it's simply out of use on a national level. Is a national symbol, that is not widely used by anyone, still a national symbol? Could someone point me to an academic or official political statement about the actual situation in Germany? GermanJoe (talk) 08:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll leave the academic reference to others, but I did try searching the official government site. The cornflower is mentioned only once, in a picture caption. Floral emblem claims oak is a second possibility, but again the only references on the government site are to oaks in general in other contexts (and no hits for Eichenlaub). (Though it is on the Euro). See also Nationales Symbol. Possible that there's no official status at all? That's what's said in this (nonacademic) book ("Germany does not have a national flower, but if it had one, the cornflower might be it...") 184.147.120.88 (talk) 12:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "EB"? Care to clarify? Dismas |(talk) 23:37, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Encyclopædia Britannica? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  02:33, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry for my laziness :), yes I meant the Encyclopedia. Thanks for the information 184.147.120.88 - i agree, it's likely there is no "official" status. That makes it very difficult to counter English sources, when they boldly claim otherwise. GermanJoe (talk) 06:34, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I recommend starting from the assumption that a state does not have a national flower, tree, fruit, bird or small furry animal, and look for an official proclamation. Devisers of fact and quiz books love to have items to fill up their neat tables, and I suspect they're not above inventing the odd item. --ColinFine (talk) 12:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The cornflower is in fact the ethnic symbol of the German-American community. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Our cornflower article says it is one of the national flowers of Germany and cites Compendium of Symbolic and Ritual Plants in Europe: Herbs, which sounds RS. John M Baker (talk) 01:30, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It's not just about formal proclamations, Colin. It's possible for something to be widely considered a national symbol without it having been officially declared to be so.  For example, millions of people around the world would regard the kangaroo and the koala as symbolising Australia, but they've never been formally proclaimed as such, even though the kangaroo (and the emu) are on our coat of arms.  On the other hand, the Golden Wattle and the Opal have been formally promulgated as our National Floral Emblem and our National Gemstone respectively (see National symbols of Australia).  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  02:21, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's true, but in Germany the cornflower is neither legally recognized nor popular - living in Germany i would know. @John M Baker, thanks for the book info. Unfortunately Google books doesn't show the relevant pages, but i'll keep looking. GermanJoe (talk) 15:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * @John M Baker, the book source was cited erronously (it had past tense for this information). Found and added the correct information after some more digging - thank you. GermanJoe (talk) 15:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * After reading a couple of German sources on this subject the following picture emerges: Before 1875 cornflowers were considered nice flowers. Then the king of Prussia and emperor of the newly-formed German Empire Wilhelm I told the story that he liked cornflowers very much, for they reminded him of his dear late mother. The story spread into the newspapers and magazines and when Wilhelm I and his consort celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary in 1876, all Berliners wore cornflowers. The cornflower thus became a symbol for Prussia (not for Germany!), for fidelity to the emperor Wilhelm I and for sympathy with emperor Wilhelm I. Subsequently the cornflower was used by German national organizations inside and especially outside Germany and thus could be considered a symbol of Germany after 1876. This ended more or less with the end of the monarchy in 1918 or the end of Prussia in 1945 and has no more meaning right now. Only learned or instructed people or national organizations would nowadays know of this episode. And now try to tell this to readers who find English language sources telling "the cornflower is the national flower of Germany" like the dated Encyclopaedia Britannica version does. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Names that used to be considered stereotypical for black Americans
I recall reading a text some time back from the first half of the twentieth century that mentioned the different names that were popular to give to babies among black and white Americans. I was interested at how the names listed as "black names" didn't have the same connotations for me as they evidently did for the author; "Sam" is the only one I remember. What are some other names that used to be used primarily by black Americans but no longer carry strong racial connotations? --superioridad (discusión) 09:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * There are a number of names which had strongly black connotations in the 19th century United States ("Cuffee", "Pompey" etc.) but aren't much used today... AnonMoos (talk) 09:46, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * A more recent one might be "Amos", which was a stereotypical name when Amos 'n' Andy was popular, but not so much today, with actors like John Amos not ashamed of the name. (I don't think "Andy" had the same problem, at the time, since it was quite a common name among whites.) StuRat (talk) 09:49, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I tried googling to find more examples of African American names but most of the sites were either useless or overtly racist. I doubt anyone seriously does any academic research on this type of thing today. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a good bet that names like Denzel and Shaniqua are primarily assigned to black kids, while names like Winthorpe are probably more often assigned to whites. I know there are sites that list popular names, and it wouldn't surprising if there is a racial or ethnic breakdown. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:40, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Census data from 1940 and before is available, and from 1850 on there have been questions that ask the name and race of each person in the household. The data exists, and I would be surprised if no one has made an online tool for breaking down popular names by race for those years. There's probably a way to tease the information out of Wolfram Alpha, but I haven't had luck with my first few queries. K ati e R  (talk) 14:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * In looking at this, be careful to avoid being misled by inaccurate stereotypes. For example, Rastus has a long-standing reputation as a stereotypical black name, but was never particularly used as such.  John M Baker (talk) 15:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Erastus, though, is a perfectly legitimate name, and I suspect a number of blacks had that name at one time. Once it became a stereotype, they stopped using it. Just like nobody in their right mind names their kid "Elmer" nowadays. I recall when it seemed like about half the black MLB players were called "Willie". Not many nowadays, but whether that's because of stereotyping or if it simply fell out of favor, I couldn't say. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:21, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * While there have been blacks named Rastus or Erastus, of course, there were never very many (e.g., there were only four blacks/mulattos named "Rastus" in 1870, and that is not a lot). The only well-known real-life Rastus I know of was Rastus Ransom, a prominent New York lawyer in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  I presume he was white; none of the contemporary references to him mention his race, which was a pretty good indicator of whiteness at the time.  John M Baker (talk) 23:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The first thing that came to mind from this subject heading was the common practice, echoed and somewhat transformed in the novels of William Faulkner, of giving slaves and other black people Roman first names (praenomina) - Lucius, Marcus, Titus, Quintus, and the like - and (sometimes Anglicized) family names such as Pompey, Horatio, or Cornelius, with the occasional cognomen of someone super-famous (e.g. Cicero or Augustus or Marius) mixed in from time to time. Later on (do I have a timeframe? I don't. Read Faulkner :-Þ) this came to be seen as the unbelievably patronizing tradition that it was, though I've heard of at least one Lucretia (perhaps spelled differently) very recently. ☯.Zen Swashbuckler  .☠  19:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I presume this is why Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:30, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it's why Muhammad Ali was originally named Cassius Clay, but also partially in honour of his father Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., and indirectly after an earlier Cassius Marcellus Clay, the abolitionist. His name change to Ali was all about his new religion.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. I seem to recall Ali saying it was a "slave name". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:19, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, and I recall that someone pointed out the irony that had been lost on him: he had originally been named after an abolitionist, but then named himself after a slave owner. D'oh! 71.79.40.46 (talk) 08:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Google advanced book search for "Negro names" for the years 1901-1950 shows a great many books and articles analyzing popular names used up until then, but strangely none of the references provide more than snippets of information. Somehow copying the Google results makes formatting it here difficult, so I apologize for the unwanted "outdenting." There was "Some Curious Negro Names books.google.com/books?id=LvCqnQEACAAJ

Arthur Palmer Hudson - 1938 - ‎No preview" All the "No preview" and "snippet results make me wonder if Google Books decided to hide the results. There is "In Freedom's Birthplace: A Study of the Boston Negroes. ... - Page 25 books.google.com/books?id=nswiAQAAIAAJ John Daniels - 1914 - ‎Snippet view - ‎1 'This census is interesting also as shedding light on the derivation of Negro names and revealing them in process of formation. Many are Biblically inspired, as, for instance, "Adam" Rowe, "Joel" Harding, "Luke "Taylor, and "Samson" Brown.'" This is to be distinguished from 1930's White American humor articles about how funny some of the names were, citing unproven given names such as "Neuralgia." H.L. Mencken said that most of the funny "Negro names" were invented by whites., as in "Supplement II The American Language - Page 511books.google.com/books?id=NBUmGZ1SCNQC H.L. Mencken - 1948 - ‎Snippet view 'The last two are from Some Curious Negro Names, before cited, p. 188. 12 Georgia's Health, Sept., 1942, p. 3. 13 The last two are from a list compiled by the Atlanta police and discussed in Names, Raleigh (N. C.) News-Observer, Aug.. ' " See "Bookmen's Holiday: Notes and Studies Written and Gathered in ... books.google.com/books?id=BxtFAAAAMAAJ Deoch Fulton - 1943 - ‎Snippet view - 'The students who have investigated Negro names in a really scientific spirit have found them few and far between, and whenever a particularly luscious specimen is reported it usually turns out to be at second or third hand. When Dr. Urban T.'"  The above were from the first half of the 20th century. In recent times white writers have pointed out names like where a variant pronunciation of some common white name has been put down phonetically or  where it is just a creative spelling pronounced the same as the common spelling. Some names are inventive and unique African-sounding names. Edison (talk) 14:23, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are names like Trayvon and Towanda so popular? (Though I'm no more understanding of how weird white names like "Chloe" caught on)  I suppose the strangest thing in American naming is typically that many of the names were from the New Testament but seem to have suffered a loss of popularity - John, Matthew, Luke and so forth. Wnt (talk) 04:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Chloe is a pretty old name. There was a 1934 film called Chloe, Love Is Calling You, and its theme song was popular enough that Spike Jones did a parody of the song. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Evangelical School of Smyrna
I am researching my great uncle, George Weber - - he reputedly taught French at the Evangelical School in Smyrna for 40 years. I'm certain that he is the person seated second to the left, front row in your published photo of "Evangelical School Teachers and Graduates, 1978". Do you have any idea of where you obtained that photo? I would very like to get in touch with the person who delivered that photo.

Thanks very much,

Dennis Woodward — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.177.63.25 (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If you go to Evangelical School of Smyrna and click on the photo, you can see what information we have on it, like so In this case, we got it from here . SemanticMantis (talk) 21:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)