Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 September 15

= September 15 =

Plank length
Moved to Reference_desk/ScienceOsmanRF34 (talk) 02:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Good parenting?
"There is a Jewish story, an ordinary Jewish joke. A father was teaching his little son to be less afraid, to have more courage, by having him jump down the stairs. He put his son on the second stair and said, "Jump, and I'll catch you," and then on the third stair and said, "Jump, and I'll catch you." And the little boy was afraid, but he trusted his father and did what he was told and jumped into his arms. The father put him on the next step, and then the next, each time telling him, "Jump, and I'll catch you." Then the boy jumped from a very high step, but this time the father stepped back, and the boy fell flat on his face. He picked himself up, bleeding and crying, and the father said to him, "That'll teach you." "

I wonder if doing that is good parenting, and as a side question, is it common among Jewish people? OsmanRF34 (talk) 02:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * No to both. It's only a joke. StuRat (talk) 04:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not asking if it's literally true, but if just figuratively,isn't it a good idea to put a child in a problematic situation. OsmanRF34 (talk) 04:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A predictable outcome of such a story would be that the kid would never trust his father again. Do you think that's a good parental technique? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Putting a child into a situation where they have to think about the consequences is one thing. Setting them up to fail is another.  Dismas |(talk) 05:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The example given is pretty much analogous to a parent telling their kid to stick that metal screwdriver into several benign openings, and then advising the kid to do likewise into an electric outlet. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Where do you live, Osman? If you want, we can arrange to have someone waiting for you outside in the bushes. oo There is also the time honored method of teaching a kid swimming by throwing him in a body of water over his head, but swimming lessons doesn't address that. μηδείς (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Seems like a valid method, although people became too delicate lately for such stuff. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If your objective is to either murder your child or make the child hate you forever, then it certainly could work. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:52, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * BB: the method doesn't mean to throw the child and forget about it. It's just letting him on his own. OsmanRF34 (talk) 14:36, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Standing aside and letting the kid practically kill himself when he jumps down the stairs is not "letting him on his own". In fact, it's probably a criminal act. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you sure this is really a Jewish joke? It doesn't portray Jews in a very good light.  It seems like more an anti-Semitic joke about Jews. Herzlicheboy (talk) 00:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, it sounds more like a "redneck joke". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:42, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Then the father would have said "that'll larn ya." μηδείς (talk) 16:49, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

child abuse videos
I'm doing a research project on child abuse. In early 1989, a weekday morning program showed this video. In it, a woman is trying to comfort a fussy baby. A moment later, the still-fussy baby is sitting in a high chair. The woman is trying to feed him/her. A couple minutes later, she slaps the child across the face yelling, "Now stop it!!" A moment later, she backhands the still-fussy baby on the face. She then gags him/her with a napkin, and slaps the child across the face a second time yelling the same thing. That video was taken by a hidden nanny-cam. In early 1991, an evening news program showed a video. In it, a woman is slamming a fussy baby onto a kitchen counter. She then strikes him/her on the head a few times with a wooden spoon. She then grabs the child and throws him/her to the kitchen floor yelling, "Shut up!!" That video was also taken by hidden nanny-cam. I can't seem to find those videos on YouTube. What has become of the abusers? What are those babies doing nowadays? Can anyone help, please? Thank you.142.255.103.121 (talk) 03:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * How can you be so sure about the year? That's 20 years ago. OsmanRF34 (talk) 04:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I found one of them. explains all details. OsmanRF34 (talk) 04:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

A textbook of Jewish rhetorics?
A textbook of the subject that deals with Greetings, Blessings, ways of ending a conversation (Both Hebrew and English are fine), Typical discourse analyzing, etc. any recommendations? Thanks. Ben-Natan (talk) 12:58, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For this to produce meaningful recommendations, you'd have to clarify: are you referring to communications between Jews in Orthodox or Haredi communities, or Jewish individuals regardless of religious observance? The great majority of Jews today speak the vernacular of the countries where they live and observe the local customs. Jews of Ashkenazic descent in the Diaspora, even if secular and not conversant in Yiddish, might have adopted daily and holiday greetings in that language into the second and third generations after emigration from the host country (e.g. Americans of Eastern European descent). Similarly the use of Ladino among Jews of the Spanish expulsion (e.g. Netherlands, Balkans), Judeo-Persian among Jews from the Middle East, and the Judeo-Arabic languages for Jews from North Africa. -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:41, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello, Both !. please give me what you have to offer :) Regards, Ben-Natan (talk) 15:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Preliminary web search has been inconclusive, and offhand I know of no published guide treating this topic. The next avenue of inquiry leads to the actual reference desk of a Jewish university's library, one that has a department of ethnolinguistics. In the oral exchange between two individuals, relevant factors include what each might know about the other's level of observance and familiarity with the source language elements, in usage ranging from the jocular to pious. E.g. such greetings would be wasted on my secular/assimilated brothers in the Pacific Northwest; in the Western Galilee I replied "thank you" to the Israeli Arab bank clerk who wished (the secularly dressed) me a happy New Year, but I wouldn't have known whether to have to have closed my conversation with her the previous month with "Ramadan kareem" or "Eid mubaraq," since she dresses Western and wears no identifying jewelry indicating her religion. By contrast, for an in-group Jewish use of Yiddish and Hebrew in English, see Yeshivish. -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Scotland post Independence Referendum 2014
In the (unlikely) event that Scotland does vote YES for independence from the remainder of the current UK in September 2014, would the Scottish Electorate still have voting rights in the Westminster General Election in 2015, given that Scottish Independence would not actually take Constitutional effect for 2 years after the Referendum? And if the answer to that question is YES, how could Scottish MP's continue to represent their Scottish Constituencies for the normal 5 year Westminster Term of Parliament when the last 3 years of that term would see Scotland outside the remainder of the UK? 80.6.13.178 (talk) 17:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this may answer most of your questions. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:08, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Grandiose, very helpful article, but as a British Englishman (Yorkshire actually) who has lived in Scotland for 38 years, married into a Scottish family, with Scottish born children, one of whom has warned me that I will be an immigrant after a Yes vote, I just might have to take myself (and her inheritance as well), back to England. 80.6.13.178 (talk) 17:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Your child is either confused or teasing you (or both). There is no legal concept of "Scottish citizenship" at the moment - all that we have to go on is residency, which is why my grandmother (born in pre-partition Ireland), my mother (born in Northern Ireland) and my father (born in England) will all be able to vote in the referendum (as will you!), but despite being born in Edinburgh, I won't. It is completely inconceivable to me that any arrangements for independence will rely on birthplace alone; apart from all the obvious reasons it's a good idea, not every prominent SNP politician was born in Scotland, which neatly blocks the chance of anyone suggesting it for political grandstanding. Andrew Gray (talk) 21:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe that citizens of the Irish Republic (resident in the UK) are still able to vote in UK general elections. Alansplodge (talk) 07:57, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Buying a barrel of oil
A barrel of oil currently costs about $108. If I had a hundred and eight dollars, could I actually buy a literal barrel of oil from an oil retailer, or is this more a theoretical concept used to measure the price of oil? Horatio Snickers (talk) 19:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a decidedly theoretical concept. This organization can sell you 24cc of crude oil for $14.95 (which works out at approximately $100,000 per barrel), and this one can sell you 2 gallons for $115 (which would work out at $805 per barrel, but they don't let you order more than 2 gallons), but I don't think there's anywhere that you can buy one barrel (42 gallons). [No representations are made as to the reliability of either of those websites, if that needs saying].  On the other hand, if one were to write to one's nearest oil refinery, one _might_ be able to arrange something with a medium-level person in their accounts department.  Or, indeed, one could ply a lower-level person in their Goods Inwards (or whatever the appropriate term is for an oil refinery) department with alcohol and cash, but that would be stealing rather than buying. Tevildo (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oil can be bought on a commidity market. You probably can't just get one, it is likely sold in lots of some number of barrels.  If you buy an option for (example), January delivery of X number of barrels, then the seller would be obligated to deliver it to you.   There are also companies that deliver Heating oil.   RudolfRed (talk) 21:41, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * An options contract is not going to be that loose. It will specify where the oil could or would be delivered and stipulate handling and transfer fees if it is physically taken possession of. Those will likely have minimums.  Look at Hillary Clinton's famous single cattle trade.  It was in bulk, and she didn't have them delivered to the Rose Law Firm. μηδείς (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Linking to it: Hillary Rodham cattle futures controversy for those who don't know what it's all about. Was it brains, luck or fraud? It's up to you to decide. OsmanRF34 (talk) 16:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I kind of suspect you could possibly buy one barrel if you had some contacts for it. It would undoubtedly cost you more than the spot price, but not massively more. I don't know where you'd start looking though. Perhaps a small scale producer. I imagine certain disciplines, hollywood for instance, might have access to something like this. Shadowjams (talk) 23:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * They are called the teamsters, Shadowjams. Thanks for the link, Osman. μηδείς (talk) 01:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Having a family member who was a Teamster, I'm pretty sure that's not what they are. But thanks for the attempt at help Medeis. Shadowjams (talk) 06:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, so I see the longshoremen have their own union. Always assumed they were teamsters.  I used to be a teamster myself for a while.  Always found that funny. μηδείς (talk) 21:21, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Not a teamstrice? --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There were plenty of teamstrices, if you want to go there, but it was not an inside joke at that workplace. There are plenty of people whose job leads them to be members of the teamsters union in the US who themselves don't actually teamst. (PS, please help with the Karen Carpenter question.) μηδείς (talk) 21:41, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw it, but I have no credentials to answer it. Sorry.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:46, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Coming a bit late to this, but what can one do with a barrel of crude oil? Keep it in the hope that the price rises? --Hors-la-loi (talk) 07:45, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Muslims and Arabs' Hatred of Jews
This might be a stupid question, but I've never really had much exposure to Islamic cultures or have studied them in school. However, the I get the impression that Muslims and Arabian peoples are unabashedly anti-Semitic. What has caused them to have such an ill-regard for the Jews? And more importantly, does the Islamic version of anti-Semitism differ from common Western versions of anti-Semitism? I know quite a bit about historical European anti-Semitism and was wondering if Islamic anti-Semitism is different. Is their Jew hatred based on historical, racial, cultural, linguistic or religious factors? If you could tell me some reliable works on the subject where I could read more about it. Thanks Herzlicheboy (talk) 23:25, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Just in case this editor, who writes about Syrian films, is serious, here's a start: Islam and antisemitism. Bielle (talk) 23:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * In past centuries, many Muslims had a kind of low-level generalized contempt for Jews as an un-military people who obstinately clung to an obviously "superseded" and obsolete religion. However, there usually wasn't too much that could be called "hatred" or specific antisemitism, until it started being imported from Europe, as seen in the Damascus Affair etc.  In the pre-WW2 period, Fascist and even Nazi attitudes towards Jews also began to have influence on some in the middle east... AnonMoos (talk) 00:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * From the top of my mind, Jews would be dhimmis in a Muslim state, that is, better than a kaffir but worse than a Muslim. There is also the question of Zionism taking over a territory with a Muslim majority and then defeating several Arab armies. Anti-Semitism was earlier than Zionism and certainly earlier than Israel, but the wars have not certainly helped.
 * On the independence of Israel, Oh Jerusalem is quite enjoyable, but surely others could recommend better works.
 * I would discard linguistical factors. Jews in Arabic and Islamic countries would speak the local majority language even if keeping a Jewish dialect (Judeo-Arabic and Judeo-Persian).
 * For a connection between European and Arab anti-Semitisms, see the Great Mufti of Jerusalem in the1940s.
 * You don't mention economic factors.
 * --Error (talk) 01:26, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For your redlinks, you may want Israeli Independence and O Jerusalem!.. -- ToE 23:58, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks --Error (talk) 00:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Arabs are Semitic as well. So Arabs aren't unabashedly anti-Semitic. Sleigh (talk) 01:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Antisemitism", "anti-Semitic" etc. refers to and describes negativity concerning Jews specifically, despite any misleading etymology. -- Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:55, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Sleigh -- the claim that "Arabs can't hate Jews because they're Semites themselves" is unfortunately completely blatantly incorrect. When referring to modern peoples (as opposed to tribesmen of 1000 B.C.), the word "Semite" has no real valid meaning other than "speaker of a Semitic language", but the term "antisemitism" has always meant "Jew-hating" continuously since it was apparently originally coined by non-Jewish Jew-hater Wilhelm Marr in 1879. During the late Victorian period, "Semites"=Jews was actually one of a whole series of mock-grandiose pseudo-elevated (but really slightly condescending) terms which were used to refer to various ethnic/religious groups that were felt by White Anglo-Saxon Protestants to be somewhat alien to themselves -- such as "Celestials" used to refer to Chinese, "Romans" for Italians, "Sons of Erin" for Irish, and a number of others. During that period, the term "Jew-hating" was a little too crude and direct to be used in polite mixed genteel company, so that "antisemitism" gained acceptance as a euphemism for drawing-room use. The term "antisemitism" may be considered theoretically etymologically incorrect, but the word "homophobia" is even more theoretically etymologically incorrect, and that doesn't change its meaning.... AnonMoos (talk) 06:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The founding of the modern state of Israel, and thus demotion of Palestinians outside Israel to 2nd class citizens, is the modern problem. But, even in ancient tomes, one tribe of Jews betrayed Mohammad during the siege of Medina by the Meccans, and were all massacred or enslaved for this. StuRat (talk) 04:00, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The question has to consider that being Arab doesn't mean you are not Jewish, hatting Zionism doesn't mean hatting Jewish people, that there still are communities where Jewish people live in peace with Muslims, and some that Muslim nations such a Turkey, have a good relationship with Israel. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "Hatting" all the Jewish people would require quite an effort, as it would require millions of yarmulkas. :-) StuRat (talk) 07:07, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * OsmanRF34 -- Unfortunately, many Arab nationalists during much of the 20th century decided that Jews could not be "real" Arabs, and the only Arab country whose rulers have given consistent protection over decades to a full Jewish community (not just to a small remnant of mainly a few old people) is Morocco. And Turkey's relations with Israel started on a downward path after the AK Party attained power. AnonMoos (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * These are valid distictions not commonly observed in mass media reportage today, and the consequent casual opinions and attitudes formed in its wake (e.g. the recent Jew-on-Jew heckling of NYC mayoralty Democratic primaries' candidate Anthony Weiner for "marrying an Arab"). See also the distribution in the Arab world in recent decades of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:58, 16 September 2013 (UTC)''