Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 September 29

= September 29 =

exact moment for pictorial meme
what is the exact moment the Internet started using some kind of meme picture iwth text written in one line at the top (over thepicture) and one line at the bottom. This isnt an ancient practice. 178.48.114.143 (talk) 00:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I doubt you can find an exact date.  Lolcat started in June 2006.  Was it the first?  RudolfRed (talk) 02:58, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * O RLY? appears to be several years older than that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:40, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Considering that pictures of cats with added text was around in the 19th century, I'd guess the kind of meme picture you're talking about predates the internet. Here's e.g. a 1960 poster of Alfred E. Neuman running for president that I think would qualify. 13:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There are early memes before O RLY? Waha appears to be 2002 on Futaba KYM, but lol cats and demotivators appear to be breakthrough from sub-cultures to general culture. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Age of High School graduation in Colombia
I hear that kids enter the first grade when they're 5 and that there are 11 grades in the Colombian school system. Would that mean or not mean that the children graduate from high school when they're 16 (Do I have the age wrong?)? If it does mean that, why is that the case in Colombia when around the world children graduate from school when they're 18? Willminator (talk) 01:37, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * See the article at Colombia. It says that first grade starts at six years old.   If the last grade is eleven, then the child will probably be 17 at graduation, depending on when during the year their birthday is.  RudolfRed (talk) 03:05, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * But the article Education in Colombia says that children usually enroll into grade 1 at age five. Do they get into grade 1 at age 5 or at age 6? Willminator (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Do we know that kids graduate from high school in Columbia? I thought that was a US thing. Marnanel (talk) 21:56, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

technical question on microeconomics: why don't more people use personal buyers (micro economics question)
since people spend SO much time making buying decisions (leading to decision fatique) including everyday decisions such as which meals to prepare at home, which in turn comprise which ingredients, etc, to more complex decisions such as clothing (new or used) ebay etc etc etc --- for this reason how come a 'personal shopper' isn't a part of the market that is very common? for everyone, in every situation.

what I mean is that essentially we are letting corporations package for easy consumption (no one chooses the ingredients, price, etc, comprising a big mac for example - they just order one). |But their incentives aren't aligned with ours. a personal buyer's incentive is aligned iwth the shopper's.

so how come this isn't more common? where you would pay $4.99 for groceries and $2 for the cost of selecting healthy ones for you, rather than $6.99 for fast food which includes far lower cost of ingredients than $4.99, a healthy profit for hte corporation, as well as all tthe advertising that it took to ocnvince you to go int here and eat such unhealthy fare?

I guess, in microeconomics terms, I'm surprised there aren't more brokers for people's buying decisions. why not? it's an incredible strain to make buying decisions all the time...

Note: I am not proposing such a service or anything like it; this is purely a technical quesiton on microeconomics. 178.48.114.143 (talk) 01:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What makes you think it's a strain on people to make buying decisions. Some people (at least, more than one... so I feel confident saying "some" here) actually enjoy shopping.  I know it sounds weird, but I have heard that out there, there are people who find pleasure in going to stores and looking at items and deciding which ones to buy.  It is not the universal human drudgery you seem to be under the impression that it is.  -- Jayron  32  04:07, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * But there are SO many things made for convenience that removes this aspect (such as a frozen entree) where the person could buy the ingredients individually. I just think that a large number of purchases are made as a substitute for having to make many small, individual choices. 178.48.114.143 (talk) 05:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It's not just about making choices, but also saving time and effort. A person who buys a Big Mac or a frozen dinner does not need to spend the time or effort to prepare a meal cooked from individual components.   Folks are trading money for time.   Have you seen anything published that says people buy convenience items to reduce the number of choices they need to make?   RudolfRed (talk) 05:31, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the price is the main issue. I doubt if you would save money to have a personal shopper unless you are wealthy.  That is, the cost of the shopper would be more than the money they would save you by finding lower priced items.


 * I have thought about other ways to address the issue of not wanting to spend the time to check out everything, because I agree that reading every ingredients list and looking up all restaurant meals online before I go out is exhausting. I think there are other ways around this, like a restaurant that only serves healthy meals, so you don't need to worry about them sneaking trans-fats into some item, for example (ideally somebody independent, like the American Heart Association, would decide what is healthy, and not the restaurant).  A grocery store can have a healthy items aisle, where you don't need to read the labels.  I'd also like to see nutrition labels with bad things, like high sodium, listed in red, good in green, and fair in yellow, so you could get a rough idea for how healthy something is at a glance. StuRat (talk) 05:47, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * We do have an article on Personal shopper, incidentally. Tevildo (talk) 09:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That article makes them sound a lot like salespeople - I can barely see the difference. Also, I would question whether their motives are really aligned with those of the people hiring them, even if the personal shopper was hired by an individual, not a department store. The motive of the shopper would be to make the most money in the shortest time, while keeping their job, so like all people, they would look for shortcuts that get them through the boring work. IBE (talk) 17:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, and exactly how you pay them would be critical. Do you give them a set amount, and say they can keep whatever's left after they buy your stuff from it ?  That would ensure they would buy you cheap junk.  Do you give them a percentage of the money they spend on you ?  That would ensure they will buy you the most expensive items they can find.  Do you pay them an hourly rate ?  That will ensure they will spend a lot of time buying each item.  Do you just pay them a salary ?  That will ensure they will spend very little time researching each item.  And presumably, since you don't have the time to research prices, you won't really know if they got you a good deal or not, you'd just need to take their word for it.  StuRat (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Nutrition-Information-UK-Label-Yoghurt.png is a thing, although it's more to do with nutrition:  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.30.45 (talk) 19:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yep, we need those labels in the US. StuRat (talk) 05:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Bari and Rossano
How did Isabella of Naples come about becoming ruler of Bari and Rossano in 1499? Who did she succeeded or were those titles create her like a dower? Her brother Piero was Prince of Rossano until 1491, who held the title for Prince of Rossano between 1491 and 1499 and did anyone else hold it before Piero. Also was the title of Duchess of Bari new? And what exactly happen to these two titles after Bona Sforza's death? From what I read in the article King Philip II of Spain confiscated the land in 1558 and annexed it to Naples base on a shaking will of Bona's. But Bona Sforza died in 1557 so does that mean her son Sigismund II Augustus was Duke of Bari and Prince of Rossano for a year before it was annexed to Naples?--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 05:49, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Re Bari only: there's a lot more detail in the Italian wikipedia entry which might help you start your search for sources. It seems to have been a very complicated situation with two child heirs in short order, accompanied with lots of jockeying for possession of the various duchies by uncles, cousins, Isabella (as wife of the first underage heir and mother of the second) and various foreign powers. I can't read Italian but it does sound as if Ludovico Sforza, uncle of Isabella's husband, was duek of Bari legitimately, but also seized the bigger and richer Milan, which should have gone to Isabella's husband. Apparently he ceded Bari to Isabella so she'd stop making claims on Milan on behalf of her son. The King of Naples was involved somehow too. Hopefully an Italian speaker can help you out. There is a ?fictionalized? version of Isabella's story here. 184.147.120.88 (talk) 15:36, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

French books for beginners
I was looking for some easy french books (children's novels, story books, etc.) which I could read alongside learning french, like those Enid Blyton books papa used to buy for me when I was learning english, so that I could get used to the language and build my vocabulary, etc. etc. Any suggestions? --Yashowardhani (talk) 09:34, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I remember reading a Maigret novella by Georges Simenon called "Sept petites croix dans un carnet" - which is translated into english as "Seven Little Crosses in a Notebook" - in french classes at an english school. I never got very far in French, so I think this would be quite elementary: not quite Enid Blyton, more like Agatha Christie, I guess. We were quite proud to be able to hack our way through it (with the aid of a dictionary), as it was a "proper book", though the vocabulary you pick up might be a bit dated. Not available to download, as far as I can see, but available on all the well-known book sites. TrohannyEoin (talk) 11:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I can heartily recommend the classic Le petit Nicolas books, which are funny and entertaining and use language simple enough for a learner. I used them myself when learning French, and both my children read them for pleasure when they, too embarked on the language almost three decades later. -  Ka renjc (talk) 11:43, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Some ideas here: list for second-language learners, discussion on classics, list of classics, why English books in translation may be a good idea, Governor General's Award for French-language children's literature, Prix NRP de littérature jeunesse, and Prix TD de littérature canadienne pour l’enfance et la jeunesse. 184.147.120.88 (talk) 11:47, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Besides Le petit Nicolas and Simenon, which are good suggestions, other classics read by French children include the novels of Jules Verne and Alexandre Dumas, The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Le bossu by Paul Féval, various books by George Sand (La petite Fadette, La mare au diable), the Arsène Lupin novels of Maurice Leblanc and those of Gaston Leroux (Le fantôme de l'opéra). And don't neglect graphic novels such as Tintin, Astérix, Spirou and many others, which are also a great way to learn French. All of these are easily read by those for whom French is not their first language. --Xuxl (talk) 13:09, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Some of these strike me as a bit advanced for someone at Fr-1 level. Of the ones in all these posts that I know, I would only recommend Tintin and Asterix. Le Petit Nicolas was on my Fr-2 reading list, and is still not easy. Part of the problem is the compromise between language level and enjoyment level, and Nicolas is about a mischievous kid whose antics become very repetitive after a few stories. The Tintin plots are of course complex, but terrific, although I would recommend Asterix as a starting point because there is so much less to follow - just eating wild boar and smashing Romans. IBE (talk) 13:36, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

As, some xx years ago, I enjoyed & learned a lot in Mad and Punch, I'd recommend comics. Especially the great Belgian classical ones ( Tintin, Spirou), and Asterix of course. Though not the Blake and Mortimers by Edgar P. Jacobs (never could go beyond page 2) , and definitively not "Les Schtroumpfs", The Smurfs : fancy a world of blue midgets ruled by an old mustachioed one, with only one woman, and with a one word language !. Good learning ! Arapaima (talk) 17:07, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I strongly recommend you find and memorize poems, and especially songs in French. Songs are much easier to recall than abstract grammatical rules or vocabulary lists, yet they provide you with good lessons in both grammar and vocabulary, as well as idiom.  Check out List of best-selling singles in France and then look at youtube for songs like L'amour est bleu with the lyrics in both French and English.  Five such songs will do you better in the long run than any one book. μηδείς (talk) 18:52, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's a great youtube channel with plenty of top hits in French with French and English subtitles. μηδείς (talk) 19:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, guys! This helped very much. I think I'll go with Le Petit Prince and then, if my french gets a little better, I'll read Jules Verne and Alexandre Dumas. Other recommendations are very good too, but sadly they're not available where I live, except as english translations :( Are any of them available to read online? I searched, but couldn't find them. Thanks again. --Yashowardhani (talk) 11:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

A rug "made by Alecto" . Alecto ? ...
Hello Learned Ones ! While having a nap on a soft black 100 per 100 polyurethan carpet, I had the idea to cast a glance on its label, & was puzzled to see, instead of the now usual "Made in China", the phrase "Made by Alecto". Has somebody any idea about the origin of that rug (bought at a low price in a french supermarket), and of the the origin of the naming (I thought mythology knowledge rather scarce among rug dealers). Thank you beforehand for your answers. Arapaima (talk) 16:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Google could only find me Alecto Flat-Weave Rug which it says originates in India. Editions Alecto is a British art printer, so maybe a bit of a rip-off of that. Alansplodge (talk) 20:04, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot Alan. Besides, i found in WP (i don't dare enter Google, have been told it's evil...) that among many others (guns, bats, birds, fregates etc...), Alecto is an eastern moth (cf list of Western Ghats butterflies & of Bengladesh butterf. ) , & an evil female character in Harry Potter's saga...Hence maybe the derivation. Take care, t. y. Arapaima (talk) 08:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Corporal punishment in schools
user:Demiurge1000 used to have this user box on his user page. The box was made by Demiurge1000's personal request, so I thought he's the best person to ask about the corporal punishment. Besides I don't know anybody but him who has ever received, leave alone administered the Corporal punishment in schools. So I asked Demiurge1000 if it was usual practice to have a child to administer the punishment to another child, but he suggested I should ask my question here. So here I am, and I really would like my question answered. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.240.0.241 (talk) 16:56, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have moved your question down from the top of the page. - Ka renjc (talk) 18:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * In some British independent schools, prefects were allowed to administer physical punishment to younger pupils. A quick Google produced this account of life in a boarding school in southern England in the 1960s (scroll down about half way). It was never allowed in state schools as far as I know. Alansplodge (talk) 19:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It was a feature in Boy (book) and also has some relation to Fagging . The practice seems to have enough of an impact in Roald Dahl's life that it came up in at least one of his adult short stories, Galloping Foxley. Nil Einne (talk) 04:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Prefects at my English state Grammar school (1956-71) were reputed to have used the "slipper", though I don't remember knowing anyone it actually happened to. Whether it was "allowed" in the legal sense is another question. Technically any corporal punishment was supposed to be recorded in a "punishment book" (example here - almost unbelievably this is from a primary School), but this certainly wasn't observed by the "masters" (as we called them) who used CP (I'm pretty sure a few of them, regarded it as a perk of the job). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, prefects at my English state Grammar school were allowed to use the slipper, and the headmaster was very proficient with a cane, though both practices died out there during the 1960s. The cane was still used in some state schools in England up to the late 1970s.  Scotland had the tawse.    D b f i r s   07:59, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The article corporal punishment doesn't say a lot, but in Australia, it has only ever been a teacher, to the best of my knowledge. I nearly got it once, and it was the sole decision of one teacher to give it out, and at the last minute, to let me off. He had the cane in his hand for about 10 minutes while he spoke to me (they milk it for all it's worth). It is now banned in my state, and I have heard that it was always supposed to be only used after consultation among teachers, but in my case it was just one teacher, and not a head or deputy (it was one of the "enforcer" teachers, who students sometimes feared). IBE (talk) 20:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Nearly? Once?  Boy, you younguns had it sweet.  I copped it many times.  The leather strap on the palm of the hand was the order of the day in my schools.  It stung like hell for about half an hour.  That was one swipe.  But typically it'd be "six of the best", or a dozen for severe infractions worthy of parental notification.  There was never any consultation between teachers; the teacher in charge of the class just meted out instant "justice" whenever they felt it was appropriate to do so, which was pretty often.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * My brother-in-law went to Catholic school all his life, hence his atheism. He says he had his hair pulled, but never witnessed spanking, especially not student-on-student.  My father, now in his 70's, was never spanked, but witnessed knuckle-rappings with a ruler.  He was found one day a minute before class sitting showing off with his feet behind his ears, and was forced by the nun to sit that way all day.   Corporal punishment had been legal in private and public schools at some point in New Jersey until it was outlawed in the 70's or early 80's.  (I remember the news, but not when.) μηδείς (talk) 21:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That kind of thing is what prompted Father Guido Sarducci to say that a lot of nuns were reincarnated Mafiosi. A nice bit of revenge on sadistic nuns would be if your brother-in-law would contact some of the worst ones and say, "Because of you, I'm an atheist." Lay a little guilt on them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, he's an atheist, but he's also still a Catholic. The kids are all baptized, and they go to church sundays.  My eldest nephew just had first communion this spring.  I am also not sure my brother-in-law  didn't deserve the hair pulling, and I didn't get the impression he meant it happened constantly. μηδείς (talk) 16:28, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The film if.... (1968) has a famous scene where the three heroes are beaten by the "Whips", as the prefects at the fictional Public School in which it is set are called. The treatment of the school is of course somewhat satirical, but not too far off reality. The actors involved were all well into their twenties when the film was made, which perhaps dilutes the idea of "child beating child". AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Is BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit District) considered to be a government agency?
Is the BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit District) considered to be a government agency? WJetChao (talk) 18:08, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * BART is a rapid transit system. "It is operated by the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District, a special-purpose transit district that was formed in 1957 to cover San Francisco, Alameda County, and Contra Costa County."  The highlighted organisation is a different entity from the system it operates, and only it would stand a chance of being a government agency.  But whether it actually is a government agency, I leave for others to confirm or whatever the negative of confirm is.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  18:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * (ec) It's a government chartered transit district that is run like a corporation, but which is regulated (mandated service times, areas, and rates) and is guaranteed by the government in case of default. This is like most rail systems in the US, as well as the postal service. The government has ultimate control, but does not interfere in day-to-day decisions. μηδείς (talk) 18:20, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I would not call it an agency per se, since they deal with regulation and enforcement. Rather it's a quasi-private governmental entity.  Their budget is independent from the budget passed by the state legislature, although it is subject to control from the legislature or can be bailed out by the legislature if needed.  How you want to define the terms depends on the context you want to use them in. μηδείς (talk) 18:24, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The British call them Quangos (when I first went to the UK, there was a newspaper headline about "QUANGO-BASHING", and I had absolutely no idea what the article was about based on the headline, since "bash" was used in that sense much more often in the UK than in the US at that time...). AnonMoos (talk) 11:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In the UK though we also have the concept of the Office for National Statistics' classification of a body as in the public or private sector, which is a black and white distinction (I mean, it can change, but at any given time the agency is one or the other). I wonder if there is a US equivalent that can give a similar answer. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 13:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Identification of a manuscript
I have been trying to figure out the source of the nativity scene on a CD cover I came across recently (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xoMc5lLOoJU/SzC85itr93I/AAAAAAAAAb8/6X-n77nl-8A/s1600-h/9.jpg). From what I can tell, it is a typical 15th century manuscript miniature, inside of the letter "h" (presumably part of "hodie nobis"). My guess is that it is Italian in origin. That is about as far I could get. Thank you for any help. Vidtharr (talk) 19:07, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I thought I'd got it but this very similar one is attributed to Don Simone Camaldolese (Italian, active 1375–98). I may have another go later. Our article Historiated initial may be of interest. Alansplodge (talk) 19:48, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't know where it's from, but this cd cover uses a version of the same letter H, and it shows a little bit of its surroundings, supporting your idea that it's from "hodie nobis". - Lindert (talk) 12:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The scene is specifically the Adoration of the shepherds, but using that as a search term hasn't got me any further forward. Alansplodge (talk) 17:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The link to that CD was quite helpful - I happen to own it. Here is what the liner notes say: Simone da Siena (fl 1380-1420) The Nativity: MS illumination (detail), Santa Croce, Florence/AKG London. Thank you all for your help. Vidtharr (talk) 05:20, 1 October 2013 (UTC)