Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 April 29

= April 29 =

Mailer/Behan punch-up
I've just been reading a 1999 review of the book "To Convey Intelligence: The Spectator 1928-1998" by Simon Courtland. The reviewer writes at one point:
 * It also held newsworthy parties, at one of which Brendan Behan had his famous punch-up with Norman Mailer.

This event seems to be so "famous" that I cannot find a single online reference to it. Mailer was somewhat prone to such behaviour (his fisticuffs with Gore Vidal get/s a few hits), and Behan was also an uncouth type given to brawling; but there's nothing about a fight between these two, either in the context of a Spectator party or anywhere else.

Was the reviewer mistaken? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  01:37, 29 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of it either, and like you can find no references for it. By the by, it does seem that neither Mailer nor Behan were much cop as pugilists. STORMIN' NORMAN. DuncanHill (talk) 11:25, 29 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Duncan. That does mention that they had a fight, but it sounds more like a pre-arranged match.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  12:39, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I should read more carefully!DuncanHill (talk) 12:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I've concluded that the reviewer was mistaken, there being no evidence of this allegedly "famous" punch-up. --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  09:52, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon exiles after 1066
Has there been any study or history book relating to the groups of Anglo-Saxons (mainly the former nobility and their widows and children) who escaped England after the Norman Conquest and resettled as expatriates in other parts of Europe?--170.140.105.10 (talk) 01:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia article about Edgar the Ætheling notes that some of the exiles ended up in Scotland, and used it as a base of operations for attempts to oust the Normans. His sister, Saint Margaret of Scotland, would become Queen of Scotland and grandmother to both William Adelin and Empress Matilda.  -- Jayron  32  02:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sons of Tostig Godwinson ended up in Norway, it seems. -- Jayron  32  02:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Gytha of Wessex (Daughter of Harold Godwinson) ended up in Denmark on the way to marrying into the royal family of Kievan Rus'. That article also mentions two of her brothers ending up in Denmark as well, but doesn't mention which ones.  -- Jayron  32  02:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Gytha married Vladimir II Monomakh of Kievan Rus'. I've read elsewhere that this could be connected with the establishment of Nova Anglia mentioned below.  There's a little more information here.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:00, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Gospatric, Earl of Northumbria also ended up in Scotland with the other exiles there, before finding his way to Flanders. -- Jayron  32  02:44, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It would be more interesting to learn about their entourages, the groups of fellow exiles and the communities they formed in these foreign lands. --170.140.105.10 (talk) 02:46, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Some of them apparently ended up in the Varangian Guard in the Byzantine Empire. I'm certain there have been studies on exiles in general - the Anglo-Saxons are a well-covered subject, although it's not my field in particular so I'm not sure where to look...but for the ones who went to Byzantium, you could try "The English and Byzantium" by Jonathan Shepard (Traditio 29, 1973) and The Varangians of Byzantium by Sigfus Blondal. (There must be more recent works that I'm not aware of, though!) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:04, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * See also New England (medieval). The state of Nova Anglia was supposedly founded on the Black Sea coast by these refugees in the Varangian Guard.  Spinning  Spark  08:35, 29 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Our article Harold Godwinson, says that his sons sought refuge in Ireland and from there mounted an counter invasion, landing in Devon. I'm struggling to find much more about that, but give me time. Alansplodge (talk) 12:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Not a study, but for a fictional account I strongly recommend The Last English King by Julian Rathbone. DuncanHill (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

John Bedford Leno
Without wishing to be disrespectful, there are some howlers here which permeate several different pages. I have corrected one reference to the Reform League, Hyde Park Riot and intend to do the same for the incorrect reference to Edmund Beales and to the Reform League but the root of the problem appears to be the page on Leno. Leno could not have joined the First International in 1848 as it was not established until the 1860s. I know that, but have insufficient knowledge of Leno's life (sources are scarce) to know what alternative organisation the author was thinking of. I would like to collaborate with other scholars to tidy this up because frankly it is a mess. Is there any mechanism in Wiki through which I can request collaboration in this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.1.31 (talk) 06:45, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but the best place to discuss these issues is Talk:John Bedford Leno. --Viennese Waltz 09:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Quite right, but when you've done that, leave a message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom which should get the ball rolling. Good luck. Alansplodge (talk) 14:44, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The article was (largely) written by an editor who has not made any contributions at all since 2008.. and I doubt if that article is watched by many pairs of eyes.  My advice to 121.44.1.31 would simply be to edit it yourself to remove any obvious errors.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
 * As for "some howlers", I'm sure there are many others under active discussion, many others yet to be discovered, and many new ones getting inserted every day of the week. We have over 4.5 million articles, and that's just in the English language version; we have versions in something like 200 other languages to boot.  It's all done by unpaid volunteer editors, who are not required to demonstrate any academic credentials whatsoever.  They range from  university professors to people who are barely literate.  It really is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit".  That is its sorrow and also its joy. You'll find plenty of examples of both.  Happy reading and, if you're interested, happy editing.  We need people like you: an eye for detail, can string a sentence together, shows respect, sees the bigger picture.  --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  20:33, 29 April 2014 (UTC)